From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #220 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, August 4 2003 Volume 03 : Number 220 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Quest [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] XENA: Charity Auctions [Cousin Liz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Xena Season 2 dvd again... [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy ["Creation (Sharon Delaney)" <] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy ["Ernie" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:27:16 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Quest In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:06:01 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > ROC did a great job as the grieving Gabrielle. I like the fact that Gabby > had > the strength to pull herself together and decide to make a new life fir > herself. Also I rather surprised that Gabby seemed to enjoy playing Valesca > as a fool. She'll pay for that but liked that little bitchy streak in > Gabrielle. >> I admit Quest wasn't one of my favorites at first because it was XenaLite and I was worried that Lucy's accident might mean a drastic change in her appearances for awhile. Viewing it in retrospect, it shows early on what we would see in AFIN -- Gabrielle's resilience without Xena and her capacity to take satisfaction in a bit of personal revenge. I always wondered how much of that early ep reflected a previously considered idea about how Gabs would respond to Xena's death, or whether Lucy's accident forced such consideration and/or the way Gabs responded. > > Melinda Clarke was excellent as Valesca. She had a nice combination of > righteousness and arrogance of the born tyrant. She wanted power but she > had > herself and a lot of others convinced that she was going after power for the > good of the Amazons. >> Yes, I loved how she seemed so genuinely clueless as to why others weren't jumping on her bandwagon as she believed to be perfectly logical. <<> I do > wish that Ephiny as written had a bit more of an edge though. Danielle > said > she found the character a bit boring after The Quest and she's kind of > right. > She could still be Gabby's friend but there was no reason she couldn't have > still maintained that darker edge she had in H &H. >. Agreed. I always liked that Ephiny had her suspicions about Xena early on in Hooves and regretted that she accepted Xena so readily at the end. There could've been some nice tension carried on in terms of mixed emotions about what Gabrielle's partnership with Xena might mean for both Gabrielle and the Amazons. Of course, after Xenon's birth, Ephiny had to love Xena. > > One more thing isn't amazing how well the staff and crew did in working > around > Lucy's accident. I don't think if you didn't know about it you could tell > Lucy was laid up for the middle part of season. >> Agreed again. As above, I wondered whether we got some emotion we might not have otherwise or as early. Xenastaff really had to emphasize the love between X&G in order to convey Xena's presence. as we;; as both characters' desire to do whatever necessary to restore Xena. The "kiss" and the scene where Gabrielle gives Xena the ambrosia certainly took the "connection" (and subtext) between them to a new level. -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:27:19 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny In a message dated 8/3/2003 12:31:30 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >Actually, I thought that was an excellent move on Pirate Xena's part -- > >discerning that he was probably worth added booty alive. It was the > >falling for him that wasn't very bright. > > Yep, definitely. She should have been much more cautious. I guess that > makes Caesar one of the few people who successfully fooled Xena. >> Which underscores my point that I saw it more because Xena *wanted* to believe she saw an attraction that wasn't there. Actually, she does something similar with Alti, though she doesn't know until much later that Alti gained more from power from Xena's betrayal of the Amazons than Xena did by becoming the Destroyer of Nations -- which Xena seemed quite capable of doing without Alti. Xena also allows Najara to fool her, again because Xena wanted so badly to save Gabrielle from that vision. The only person I can think of who truly fooled Xena was Gabrielle -- possibly because Xena didn't want anything selfish or power-oriented from Gabrielle. It was usually because she took Gabrielle for granted or underestimated her independence and will (e.g., the Titans, Hope, Gurkhan). > I think it would be grossly unfair to lay any blame at all on > M'Lila for a very brave, altruistic and self-sacrificing act. And, Xena > didn't set up the situation, (other than very distantly), so I don't think I > > can blame her - even though she doubtless blamed herself. >> Agreed. I guess I'm uncomfortable with the notion of "blame." Because I say M'Lila chose to protect Xena doesn't mean I "blame" either M'Lila or Xena for what happened. I think M'Lila took responsibility for rescuing/saving Xena, just as Xena did later for her own complicity. I simply meant that I don't hold Caear entirely responsible either. M'Lila and Xena chose not to walk away from events because of what was inside them. Ceaser didn't force M'Lila to be courageous and altruistic, any more than he forced Xena to be greedy, self-delusional and vengeful. > > ><< While I can blame some of this on > > Xena's misjudgement in not operating on Caesar's level and slitting > > his throat from ear to ear as soon as the ransom was delivered, I blame > >most of it squarely on the man who gave those thugs their orders - Caesar. > >>> > > > >Well, to be fair to Pirate Xena, I didn't get the impression she was at > >that point someone who renegged on a deal or slit folks' throats for the > >heck of it. If Ceasar hadn't insulted that guard, his life probably > >wouldn't have been imperiled anyway. All Xena knew was that he was an > >important person with big plans. There was no reason for her to kill him > >or suspect he'd end up using her as he did (e.g., making her his victim). > >Indeed, if she suspected they might bump heads one day, she'd have probably > >looked forward to the challenge, never expecting she'd be so outclassed. > > Well, my comment about offing Caesar was a little bit provocative, I must > admit. Now you mention it, Xena at that time was a pirate but probably > not remotely the 'evil Xena' that she became. In fact, if we blame Xena > for the fact that her treasure set Caesar up in business, we could equally > blame Caesar for Evil Xena - without his actions, Xena would not have become > > the embittered person she was when she fled to the East and ran across Alti. > >> Again, I focus on "responsibility" rather than "blame." I don't blame her for Caesar's using her loot, but she has to shoulder some responsibility for being in the business of looting. Similarly, I think Caesar certainly bears responsibility for taking advantage of young Xena's naivete to further his own ruthless ambitions. My problem with "blame" is it makes victims of people who are complicit in their own undoing. It assumes they don't have the capacity to defend themselves. I blame folks who hurt children ond others who are helpless to respond. Flawed and naive as young Rebel/Pirate/Evil Xena was, she made a career of never being helpless. I may sympathize with her retrospectively, but at the time of her actions, I don't see her as morally superior to her opponents. > But what I meant was, they were sure to clash sooner or later. And > violence would have happened. Maybe on another occasion M'Lila wouldn't > have got killed, but very likely somebody would have. >> And I would hold both responsible for stepping onto a battlefield for personal gain, with no concern whatsoever for any innocents who might be caught in the crossfire. > ><< I just don't like ruthless military dictators who want to rule the > >world. > > > > Caesar, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler..... >> > > > >...and Xena. > > I *knew* you'd say that! ;) >> Naturally. > >No one leads without followers who buy into whatever the > >leader is offering. No one gets that kind of power without tapping into > >other people's fears and/or hopes. I blame the leader, but I can't absolve > >those who aid in the misuse of power with their support or their silence. > >I hold both responsible. > > > >-- Ife > > Yes, but the leader who sets it all in motion has to take most of the blame. > >> I'm not sure the leader does set it in motion. I think she/he has the ability to discern, articulate and either elevate (e.g., Gandhi) or exploit (e.g., Hitler) what's already there. It's a thin line that requires comparable qualities -- judged credit worthy by those who agree and blameful by those who don't. My fascination with Xena was in how she continuously straddled that line, in how beautifully she showed how fuzzy it could be, even within one individual. My respect for Reformed Xena was based on how she never, ever let herself forget her responsibility for her actions, regardless of her intentions or how others might judge which side of the line she was on. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:27:15 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:12:58 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > I was again at Best Buy the microscopic picture of the box has been > replaced. > There is now no mention of a bonus DVD but the price is down to 46.99. > Drat. Anybody hear more from Sharon or Creation about the bonus disk they're offering? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:41:08 -0400 From: Cousin Liz Subject: [chakram-refugees] XENA: Charity Auctions Does anyone know if there are still people out there holding Xena charity auctions? Preferably the kind where you knew all money raised went to the charities, and not some percentage. Mist used to run one now and again where high bidders mailed in their payment made out directly to the charity -- no worrying where the money was really going that way. - -- Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net Soulmates Xena Dinosaur Bards http://cousinliz.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:07:34 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny On Monday 04 August 2003 16:27, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/3/2003 12:31:30 AM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > >Actually, I thought that was an excellent move on Pirate Xena's part -- > > >discerning that he was probably worth added booty alive. It was the > > >falling for him that wasn't very bright. > > > > Yep, definitely. She should have been much more cautious. I guess > > that makes Caesar one of the few people who successfully fooled Xena. >> > > Which underscores my point that I saw it more because Xena *wanted* to > believe she saw an attraction that wasn't there. Actually, she does > something similar with Alti, though she doesn't know until much later that > Alti gained more from power from Xena's betrayal of the Amazons than Xena > did by becoming the Destroyer of Nations -- which Xena seemed quite capable > of doing without Alti. Xena also allows Najara to fool her, again because > Xena wanted so badly to save Gabrielle from that vision. Umm, that sentence can be read two ways - with the emphasis on 'allows' (i.e. Xena deliberately let herself be conned by Najara), or the emphasis on 'fool' (i.e. Xena truly was conned). I think you meant the first way - that Xena deliberately overlooked any suspicions she may have had of the flaky one. But there is a difference - in the case of Caesar and Alti, it was Xena's ambition that overrode her suspicions; in the case of Najara, it was her altruistic feelings for Gabby. > The only person I can think of who truly fooled Xena was Gabrielle -- > possibly because Xena didn't want anything selfish or power-oriented from > Gabrielle. It was usually because she took Gabrielle for granted or > underestimated her independence and will (e.g., the Titans, Hope, Gurkhan). When you say 'fooled' Xena, how d'you mean? On certain specific occasions? Actually, in Gabs' Hope, I think maybe Xena wanted to believe that Gabby had got rid of Hope anyway. > > I think it would be grossly unfair to lay any blame at all on > > M'Lila for a very brave, altruistic and self-sacrificing act. And, Xena > > didn't set up the situation, (other than very distantly), so I don't > > think I > > > > can blame her - even though she doubtless blamed herself. >> > > Agreed. I guess I'm uncomfortable with the notion of "blame." Because I > say M'Lila chose to protect Xena doesn't mean I "blame" either M'Lila or > Xena for what happened. OK, I agree, I think 'blame' is not a good word to use there. Same goes for what happened to Gabs in The Deliverer.... I don't see either Xena or Gabs as particularly at fault there, because what happened was not reasonably foreseeable. > I think M'Lila took responsibility for > rescuing/saving Xena, just as Xena did later for her own complicity. I > simply meant that I don't hold Caear entirely responsible either. M'Lila > and Xena chose not to walk away from events because of what was inside > them. Ceaser didn't force M'Lila to be courageous and altruistic, any more > than he forced Xena to be greedy, self-delusional and vengeful. True. Well, partly true, we didn't see Xena being vengeful until *after* that episode, and one could argue that Caesar taught her that. However, I give M'Lila all the credit for being courageous and altruistic, that's a creditable trait, not a blameworthy one. And I can certainly blame Caesar for being vengeful in victory, that is not a creditable trait. In fact, on this occasion, Xena wasn't capable of walking away, M'Lila had to carry her. M'Lila could have walked away, but she didn't. If there's any hero in this episode, she's it. > > Well, my comment about offing Caesar was a little bit provocative, I must > > admit. Now you mention it, Xena at that time was a pirate but probably > > not remotely the 'evil Xena' that she became. In fact, if we blame Xena > > for the fact that her treasure set Caesar up in business, we could > > equally blame Caesar for Evil Xena - without his actions, Xena would not > > have become > > the embittered person she was when she fled to the East and ran across > > Alti. > > Again, I focus on "responsibility" rather than "blame." I don't blame her > for Caesar's using her loot, but she has to shoulder some responsibility > for being in the business of looting. Similarly, I think Caesar certainly > bears responsibility for taking advantage of young Xena's naivete to > further his own ruthless ambitions. My problem with "blame" is it makes > victims of people who are complicit in their own undoing. It assumes they > don't have the capacity to defend themselves. I blame folks who hurt > children ond others who are helpless to respond. Flawed and naive as young > Rebel/Pirate/Evil Xena was, she made a career of never being helpless. I > may sympathize with her retrospectively, but at the time of her actions, I > don't see her as morally superior to her opponents. But, just so much sexier. ;) > > But what I meant was, they were sure to clash sooner or later. And > > violence would have happened. Maybe on another occasion M'Lila wouldn't > > have got killed, but very likely somebody would have. >> > > And I would hold both responsible for stepping onto a battlefield for > personal gain, with no concern whatsoever for any innocents who might be > caught in the crossfire. Yes, agreed. But then, half the leading characters in XWP did that. But I agree, that doesn't excuse Xena. > > >No one leads without followers who buy into whatever the > > >leader is offering. No one gets that kind of power without tapping into > > >other people's fears and/or hopes. I blame the leader, but I can't > > > absolve those who aid in the misuse of power with their support or > > > their silence. I hold both responsible. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > Yes, but the leader who sets it all in motion has to take most of the > > blame. > > I'm not sure the leader does set it in motion. I think she/he has the > ability to discern, articulate and either elevate (e.g., Gandhi) or exploit > (e.g., Hitler) what's already there. It's a thin line that requires > comparable qualities -- judged credit worthy by those who agree and > blameful by those who don't. My fascination with Xena was in how she > continuously straddled that line, in how beautifully she showed how fuzzy > it could be, even within one individual. My respect for Reformed Xena was > based on how she never, ever let herself forget her responsibility for her > actions, regardless of her intentions or how others might judge which side > of the line she was on. > > -- Ife Okay, I also knew you'd say something like that. And I believe that whether the leader is majorly responsible depends on the occasion. For example, take Hitler's Germany - I do think Hitler was majorly responsible for that, simply because, if he hadn't been there, with his ability to make people follow him, events might have turned out very differently. Sure he exploited the political climate, but would any of the other potential political leaders around at that time have gone the same way (or as far) as Hitler did? I doubt it. On the other hand (and I'm no student of history), it's my impression that the American War of Independence would probably have happened even if George Washington had been absent. Somebody else would have arisen to lead because that situation was almost certainly going to turn out that way. (If I've got that history all wrong please excuse me). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:40:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Season 2 dvd again... Ok, I went and checked...the piccie for the dvd at Best Buy *does* seem to have the tiny writing at the top that says "deluxe collector's edition" or whatever, same as the large piccie of it at Creation's site...so it looks like it will have th extra whatever, and at the best price anyone's offering so far (lower than Creation and Amazon.com). So my money is still on Best Buy. :) Although they still list the release date as the 9th instead of the 2nd...? Odd... -Sarah- P.S. If anyone else is going to the Creation convention in Brooklyn this month (as I am!! :) ); Hudson Leick is gonna be doing a special yoga workshop the night b4 the con, check out www.healingheartyoga.com for more info and how to register! (I already did...) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:46:02 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy >In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:12:58 PM Central Daylight Time, >cande@sunlink.net writes: > >> I was again at Best Buy the microscopic picture of the box has been >> replaced. >> There is now no mention of a bonus DVD but the price is down to 46.99. >> > >Drat. Anybody hear more from Sharon or Creation about the bonus disk they're >offering? > >-- Ife I've been trying to confirm with out distributor what sets will have what stuff on them. But no response yet. We had the same problem last year. We didn't really know what our sets would have until they arrived in the office. But I'll keep trying and post what I learn. Sharon ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:20:51 -0700 From: "Ernie" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy Looking at the box cover of Season Two on Best Buy's website, it looks as though the bonus disc is included regardless of whether you buy it on-line or off the shelf. It's printed right on the box cover that it includes interviews with LL, ROC & RT, so I'm thinkin' the bonus disc is part of the package. Ernie - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy > In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:12:58 PM Central Daylight Time, > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > > I was again at Best Buy the microscopic picture of the box has been > > replaced. > > There is now no mention of a bonus DVD but the price is down to 46.99. > > > > Drat. Anybody hear more from Sharon or Creation about the bonus disk they're > offering? > > -- Ife > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:00:32 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy In a message dated 8/4/03 10:50:22 AM Central Daylight Time, outback@creationent.com writes: << I've been trying to confirm with out distributor what sets will have what stuff on them. But no response yet. We had the same problem last year. We didn't really know what our sets would have until they arrived in the office. But I'll keep trying and post what I learn. >> I don't understand. I thought Creation was offering a disk with comments by Lucy and Renee. If so, this wasn't done under Creation's auspices? The distributor can decide not to include it? Do they let you know whether something's really going to be a Creation exclusive or may be offered through other outlets? I can see this is more complicated than I thought, but Creation is the one who comes off looking bad when there's so much confusion. I look to Creation as the "official" resource. I realize they have to deal with competition like any other business. And maybe the distributor waits to see what the pre-order at Creation is, before deciding whether to go with other folks as well. But many of us don't know about all that. All we know is that we've rushed to guarantee receiving an item, only to discover the same thing available elsewhere at considerably less cost, which we can get around the same time as (or even faster than) our Creation preorder. I doubt this is news to you, so you're probably just as frustrated. Anyway, I appreciate the response. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:00:35 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny In a message dated 8/4/03 5:04:16 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: On Monday 04 August 2003 16:27, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Xena also allows Najara to fool her, again because > Xena wanted so badly to save Gabrielle from that vision. Umm, that sentence can be read two ways - with the emphasis on 'allows' (i.e. Xena deliberately let herself be conned by Najara), or the emphasis on 'fool' (i.e. Xena truly was conned). I think you meant the first way - that Xena deliberately overlooked any suspicions she may have had of the flaky one. But there is a difference - in the case of Caesar and Alti, it was Xena's ambition that overrode her suspicions; in the case of Najara, it was her altruistic feelings for Gabby. >> Yes, I meant Xena put misgivings aside that she might've paid more attention to under different circumstances. > The only person I can think of who truly fooled Xena was Gabrielle -- > possibly because Xena didn't want anything selfish or power-oriented from > Gabrielle. It was usually because she took Gabrielle for granted or > underestimated her independence and will (e.g., the Titans, Hope, Gurkhan). When you say 'fooled' Xena, how d'you mean? On certain specific occasions? Actually, in Gabs' Hope, I think maybe Xena wanted to believe that Gabby had got rid of Hope anyway. >> "Fooled" in that she sometimes acted in a way Xena didn't expect. Mind you, I do think Xena tended to idealize and underestimate Gabs in a way that left Xena off-guard. With baby Hope, I think Xena expected Gabs to defer to her greater experience, even though she obviously doubted Gabs' willingness to allow Hope to be killed. Gabs' story of how Hope suddenly turned on her (which I always thought sounded suspiciously like what she might have thought about Xena) was a very convenient lie that fed into Xena's suspicions about Hope, explained Gabs' sudden change of heart, and didn't require producing a body. Xena had earlier said Gabs was getting "pretty good" at eluding her. I believe Xena truly didn't realize just how good Gabs was. Similarly, Xena knew Gabs' strong feelings in "Gurkhan," yet never expected Gabs to try to beat the WP at her own game. > I think M'Lila took responsibility for > rescuing/saving Xena, just as Xena did later for her own complicity. I > simply meant that I don't hold Caear entirely responsible either. M'Lila > and Xena chose not to walk away from events because of what was inside > them. Ceaser didn't force M'Lila to be courageous and altruistic, any more > than he forced Xena to be greedy, self-delusional and vengeful. True. Well, partly true, we didn't see Xena being vengeful until *after* that episode, and one could argue that Caesar taught her that. >> Um, she declares her war on the world in that ep, as she's slitting a soldier's throat right after M'Lila gets killed -- "tonight a new Xena is born" committed to death. << In fact, on this occasion, Xena wasn't capable of walking away, M'Lila had to carry her. M'Lila could have walked away, but she didn't. If there's any hero in this episode, she's it. >> I agree about M'Lila. I meant Xena could've walked away from vengeance -- maybe hobbled back home and focused on keeping Amphipolis safe without conquering the whole world around Amphipois. > I'm not sure the leader does set it in motion. I think she/he has the > ability to discern, articulate and either elevate (e.g., Gandhi) or exploit > (e.g., Hitler) what's already there. It's a thin line that requires > comparable qualities -- judged credit worthy by those who agree and > blameful by those who don't. My fascination with Xena was in how she > continuously straddled that line, in how beautifully she showed how fuzzy > it could be, even within one individual. My respect for Reformed Xena was > based on how she never, ever let herself forget her responsibility for her > actions, regardless of her intentions or how others might judge which side > of the line she was on. > > -- Ife Okay, I also knew you'd say something like that. And I believe that whether the leader is majorly responsible depends on the occasion. >> Please forgive my snipping of your historical examples. It hurts my brain too much to apply all that to this context. What I like about XWP is being able to discuss events and people we all saw, even if through drastically different lenses. In another of our discussions about AFIN, I argued that grieving Xena shared some of the responsibility, along with the people who attacked her. They were a "mob," essentially leaderless, yet (rightfully in my opinion) you held them responsible. Like you, I don't like mobs. Everyone is to blame, but after they've done their deed and dispersed, you're lucky if you find anyone to claim or accept their personal responsibility for what everyone else did. Leaders use the power others give them to act in their names, on their behalf -- sort of the embodiment of their wishes. The leader enjoys the fruits of that and is supposed to accept responsibility for decisions. To me, that does not absolve the followers of their responsibility to challenge a leader's harmful decisions before it's too late to ask for their power back. Sometimes Evil Xena acted on her own. Other times she was able to galvanize the allegiance of troops through their fear, greed and/or hopes for a better life. She led "her" men and claimed responsibility for what they did. In her mind, she "owned" them to the point where her own desires overrode theirs. When her personal code of honor threatened their self-interest (The Gauntlet), Darphus used that to galvanize opposition and made her realize "I have no men." (Caesar learned that lesson as well, but didn't have Xena's "amazing recuperative powers" or his own show.) Reformed Xena galvanized allegiance in the same way. She sometimes used "enlightened" ruthlessness even when fighting for the greater good (e.g., Dirty Half Dozen). The difference is that she trusted herself only to lead for limited purposes. If a mission involved a personal element, she'd try to go it alone or was generally honest to those who might join with her -- "I have to save my friend/my child." The same way Amphipolis initially accepted her leadership, they rejected it when she initially returned, later accepting it again to battle the gods. Xena had many skills, but even she could lead only when others gave her the power to do so or didn't decide to take it back. I can't determine degrees (e.g., majorly or minorly) of responsibility in all that. As a leader, she accepted responsibility regardless of whether the occasion resulted in "bad" or "good" outcomes. To her, that had nothing to do with anybody else's responsibility for following her, even if I as an observer see the responsibility as shared. I focus so much on her responsibility simply because ... well ... she's Xena. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:59:07 -0700 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy >In a message dated 8/4/03 10:50:22 AM Central Daylight Time, >outback@creationent.com writes: > ><< I've been trying to confirm with our distributor what sets will have what > stuff on them. But no response yet. We had the same problem last year. > We didn't really know what our sets would have until they arrived in the > office. But I'll keep trying and post what I learn. > >> > >I don't understand. I thought Creation was offering a disk with comments by >Lucy and Renee. If so, this wasn't done under Creation's auspices? The >distributor can decide not to include it? Do they let you know whether >something's really going to be a Creation exclusive or may be offered >through other >outlets? > >I can see this is more complicated than I thought, but Creation is the one >who comes off looking bad when there's so much confusion. I look to >Creation as >the "official" resource. I realize they have to deal with competition like >any other business. And maybe the distributor waits to see what the >pre-order >at Creation is, before deciding whether to go with other folks as well. But >many of us don't know about all that. All we know is that we've rushed to >guarantee receiving an item, only to discover the same thing available >elsewhere >at considerably less cost, which we can get around the same time as (or even >faster than) our Creation preorder. I doubt this is news to you, so you're >probably just as frustrated. Anyway, I appreciate the response. > >-- Ife Creation does not have a license for releasing the series on video or DVD. Only Panzer-Davis (and their sub-licensee Anchor Bay -- which sells to Best Buy, Suncoast, Creation, etc.) can do that. So we have no input/say as to what's on them. We're just buying them wholesale. We had nothing to do with the commentaries being done. It was strictly Panzer-Davis. Unfortunately, we're not the official resource when it comes to other company's products. But I'm trying my best to find out. Just a further explanation of the chain of command. No matter what store or who you buy the Xena season one DVDs from, you're buying from Panzer-Davis. They have the exclusive license from Universal to issue the DVDs and they are selling them on their web site. They gave a sub-license to Anchor Bay because AB has a wider distribution market. Best Buy is getting them from Anchor Bay. Media Play, Sam Goody, Suncoast and Future Shop are all part of the Best Buy family. Creation is also selling them. We ordered through Anchor Bay. I suspect the first season was released without the input of Lucy, Renee and Rob because no one knew how well they would sell. If they sold well, Panzer-Davis would have more money to spend on future releases. Ergo we have commentaries on 3 of the season two eps and they're going back and re-releasing season one with commentaries on 3 of the eps -- as well as planning for the same on season 4 and 5. Hopefully, as I believe, the running commentaries will be on all the sets and not exclusive to any particular outlet. The Anchor Bay ad says "audio and video commentary" and Renee mentioned to me doing an on-camera interview. I don't know if both the audio and video commentaries will be included on all sets. But, as I said, I'll keep working on it. Sharon ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:11:59 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 > Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:28:51 +1200 > From: cr IfeRae wrote: >> Because she was > > pirating. Maybe she was financing an army to protect her homeland, but it's > > not like she was out taking orphans on a charity cruise. cr replied: > > As if Caesar was doing anything more worthy.... ;) > Actually the historic Caesar was hunting pirates. The pirates of the Mediterranean were a real problem for Roman shipping and Caesar was out to stop them. So actually he doing something "worthy" protection Roman commerce. He was however not doing it just to serve Rome but to build his reputation but he was doing something that had to done. Xena was criminal and pirates when caught usually came to a bad end. This episode was based on true incident. Caeser as a young man was captured by pirates and was ransomed. While captured he became close friends with the pirate captain. When released he hunted that captain down and crucified him. Caesar was not nice in Xena or in real life. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:19:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy > Creation does not have a license for releasing the series on video or DVD. Ah, I was all ready to respond to that email, and Sharon beat me to it. :) > Panzer-Davis would have more money to spend on future releases. Ergo we > have commentaries on 3 of the season two eps and they're going back and > re-releasing season one with commentaries on 3 of the eps -- as well as > planning for the same on season 4 and 5. Oh no, they're rereleasing Season 1?? So we have to buy it again to get a few commentaries when we already spent $60?? Ugh! :( Do you know which eps on Season 2 (or 1) have commentaries? The commentaries are Lucy and Renee, correct? Anyway, it's interesting to note that Hercules Season 1 had commentaries from Kevin Sorbo and Michael Hurst right off the bat, and it only came out a few months after Xena Season 1...what's up with that? :( > > Hopefully, as I believe, the running commentaries will be on all the sets > and not exclusive to any particular outlet. The Anchor Bay ad says "audio > and video commentary" and Renee mentioned to me doing an on-camera > interview. I don't know if both the audio and video commentaries will be > included on all sets. But, as I said, I'll keep working on it. Yeah, it seems like there's no "exclusive bonus disc" this time around, all of them have the goodies? Which is a good thing...I'm glad I got the version with the extra disc the first time (did anyone not get it with the disc? It was also released without the bonus disc, wasn't it?) cuz the director commentaries were very interesting, although of course I like audio commentaries *during* the actual episodes a bit better because then they don't have to cut to a clip and back again to show you what the heck they're talking about, etc., and you get the play-by-play details on it all. I bet Lucy and Renee commentaries would especially rock because those 2 would have fun reminiscing. :) And I can just imagine Renee sharing some deep acting insights. (Commentaries from the writers and directors would also be appreciated...my fave part of the Buffy dvd's is the commentaries from some of their excellent team of writers, as they know sooo much about the characters/story arcs, etc., it's fascinating!) I can't wait till September!! :) (But is it Sept 2 or 9? Why does Best Buy still say 9?) And I wish we knew which eps have the commentaries! -Sarah, aka the abbagirl- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #220 **************************************