From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, August 4 2003 Volume 03 : Number 219 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny [cr ] [chakram-refugees] The Quest ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:28:51 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Miss Amphipolis & Destiny On Saturday 02 August 2003 10:13, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > Now you are misapplying my general remark up there to a specific instance > that *I* did not choose to apply it to - viz, Xena's encounter with Caesar > in 'Destiny'. Maybe I was a bit ambiguous in my post, I don't know.>> > > Oh, sorry, then. We'd been talking about blame, Caesar, M'Lila, Destiny, > so I thought you meant that as an example of the fairness thing. Errm, no. In fact I hadn't really considered assigning blame for Destiny, other than the fact that I love to hate Caesar. Besides, I'd say he deserves anything that happens to him as punishment for that haircut. ;) Let me see, what was my remark - that often, others were at fault, and Xena saved the situation, and 'fairness' required that we acknowledge it - something of that sort. I was thinking more of the run-of-the-mill 'warlord of the week' eps that were prevalent in the earlier seasons as examples of that. In general, not the ones that dealt with Xena's back-story. > > Um, okay. Let's see .... Xena was on a pirating mission when *she* > > captured Caesar. She saves him from being killed because *she* senses > > he may be worth more gold alive. *She* is drawn to him because of his > > sterling qualities (which will later nearly get her killed). > > No, she's drawn to him because of his self-confidence and arrogance. Not > sterling qualities, IMO. What later nearly gets her killed is his > treachery > and deception. Maybe pardonable in the circumstances if you want to take > his side, but still not what one normally calls 'stirling qualities'. >> > > LOL! That was another of my misguided tongue-in-cheek remarks. I was > underscoring that she was drawn to the same *not* so great qualities that > she herself exhibited. You said you loved my sarcasm, so I threw a > little in. But it won't do any good, if you don't know I'm doing it. Maybe > I'll put a "JK" for "just kidding" in there. *If * I can remember. (BTW, > that was a "NotK," as my brain is not very dependable lately.) Errm, sorry for not 'getting' it. One of the inherent problems with emails is that sarcasm, or facetiousness, isn't always apparent, especially not if it's subtle. > << Of course all this rather calls Xena's judgement into question for > sparing the wretch in the first place. >> > > Actually, I thought that was an excellent move on Pirate Xena's part -- > discerning that he was probably worth added booty alive. It was the > falling for him that wasn't very bright. Yep, definitely. She should have been much more cautious. I guess that makes Caesar one of the few people who successfully fooled Xena. > > How exactly did Caesar betray a relationship he never agreed to or > > promises > > he never made to her? Indeed, all he did was stand (and lay) there, > > being himself. He kept the one promise that he did make -- that he > > would do what was necessary to rule. M'Lila chose to help Xena, which > > Caesar didn't know and even Xena had a hard time understanding. M'Lila > > chooses to sacrifice herself in front of an arrow aimed at Xena. > > Whoooah! This was Caesar's murderous Gestapo thugs - oh, sorry, Roman > soldiers - who were intent on capturing / killing Xena. M'Lila was > trying to protect Xena, not get herself killed. >> > > M'Lila was a wild card Caesar didn't know about. While I doubt M'Lila was > suicidal, she saw the arrow being aimed at Xena and had to know that > throwing herself in front of it could be fatal. Maybe "sacrificed her > body" would be more accurate? Quite so, but I think it would be grossly unfair to lay any blame at all on M'Lila for a very brave, altruistic and self-sacrificing act. And, Xena didn't set up the situation, (other than very distantly), so I don't think I can blame her - even though she doubtless blamed herself. > << While I can blame some of this on > Xena's misjudgement in not operating on Caesar's level and slitting > his throat from ear to ear as soon as the ransom was delivered, I blame > most of it squarely on the man who gave those thugs their orders - Caesar. > >> > > Well, to be fair to Pirate Xena, I didn't get the impression she was at > that point someone who renegged on a deal or slit folks' throats for the > heck of it. If Ceasar hadn't insulted that guard, his life probably > wouldn't have been imperiled anyway. All Xena knew was that he was an > important person with big plans. There was no reason for her to kill him > or suspect he'd end up using her as he did (e.g., making her his victim). > Indeed, if she suspected they might bump heads one day, she'd have probably > looked forward to the challenge, never expecting she'd be so outclassed. Well, my comment about offing Caesar was a little bit provocative, I must admit. Now you mention it, Xena at that time was a pirate but probably not remotely the 'evil Xena' that she became. In fact, if we blame Xena for the fact that her treasure set Caesar up in business, we could equally blame Caesar for Evil Xena - without his actions, Xena would not have become the embittered person she was when she fled to the East and ran across Alti. > > How would any of that have > > happened if Xena hadn't kidnapped Caesar in the first place? > > Well, Xena and Caesar were operating in the same region - you think Caesar > would have left Xena alone for long? >> > > And why was Xena operating in that region? Because she was > pirating. Maybe she was financing an army to protect her homeland, but it's > not like she was out taking orphans on a charity cruise. As if Caesar was doing anything more worthy.... ;) But what I meant was, they were sure to clash sooner or later. And violence would have happened. Maybe on another occasion M'Lila wouldn't have got killed, but very likely somebody would have. > > Careful, lfe - you're in danger of making the creep sound like he might've > turned into Mahatma Gandhi if not for Xena's bad example. ;)>> > > I didn't say Xena "made" Caesar, no more than Caesar "made" Xena. My point > above is that Xena is particularly responsible for her own betrayal. I've > acknowledged that she was young and much less experienced than Caesar. I > also believe she acted genuinely in her dealings with him. Neverthless, > she spun a fantasy scenario in her head, used her own power and assets to > seduce her victim (which Caesar was at the time, regardless of future > events) into being her partner in that scenario. She didn't care what > conquering with him meant, as long as she got what she wanted. She > believed they'd reached an agreement, when all Caesar did was smile and > clearly state his own goals. She believed what she wanted to believe, with > little support from Caesar. If her scenario became a web that trapped her, > Caesar can't take all the blame for doing what he could to help her get > stuck in it. With that haircut? I'd find him guilty of *everything* :) > << I just don't like ruthless military dictators who want to rule the > world. > > Caesar, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler..... >> > > ...and Xena. I *knew* you'd say that! ;) And I agree. If Xena had never got past her Evil Xena ways, she would be unlikeable and not very interesting. Interesting while she was gaining power, maybe, such as with Borias in The Debt; but not interesting when she became Empress Xena. Just as all-good heroes aren't very interesting, so all-bad villains aren't interesting for long, either. > No one leads without followers who buy into whatever the > leader is offering. No one gets that kind of power without tapping into > other people's fears and/or hopes. I blame the leader, but I can't absolve > those who aid in the misuse of power with their support or their silence. > I hold both responsible. > > -- Ife Yes, but the leader who sets it all in motion has to take most of the blame. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:14:21 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] The Quest this is an interesting episode in that the resolution to Xena's death is done with such a lighthearted touch. This is my favorite Autolycus episode - BC is very funny. His does the one liners and snappy rejoinders with real gusto and his physical comedy is terrific. My favorite lines: To Xena's ghost at her coffin as she trying to hurry him along. " There is only enough room in my head for my paranoia." To Valesca as she leaves after she has broken his arm: "Hey I paid for an hour." Physical comedy moments: Ghost Xena leading Autolycus off to the bathroom by his belt or something farther south. Autolycus slapping himself in the face for getting fresh with Gabrielle (my own personal feeling is that Auto got wrongly blamed there after all Xena must have put her ghostly hands someplace when she was bussing Gabby). Not to mention Auto as the hairiest of the Amazons. ROC did a great job as the grieving Gabrielle. I like the fact that Gabby had the strength to pull herself together and decide to make a new life fir herself. Also I rather surprised that Gabby seemed to enjoy playing Valesca as a fool. She'll pay for that but liked that little bitchy streak in Gabrielle. Melinda Clarke was excellent as Valesca. She had a nice combination of righteousness and arrogance of the born tyrant. She wanted power but she had herself and a lot of others convinced that she was going after power for the good of the Amazons. Daniel Cormack was very good as Gabby's friend in this one. Staunch and loyal but she showed herself to politically savvy. I am sure she was genuinely sorry to hear of Xena's death but she certainly was smart enough to use it to Valesca deposed and a new queen who would be sympathetic to her agenda. I do wish that Ephiny as written had a bit more of an edge though. Danielle said she found the character a bit boring after The Quest and she's kind of right. She could still be Gabby's friend but there was no reason she couldn't have still maintained that darker edge she had in H & H. One more thing isn't amazing how well the staff and crew did in working around Lucy's accident. I don't think if you didn't know about it you could tell Lucy was laid up for the middle part of season. You know Xena and X-Files at about the same point in their season had to deal with the fact one of their stars was out of action and both series rose to the occasion magnificently. It shows that necessity is the mother of invention or when things get tough, the tough get going, or some other clichi I can't think of. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:21:43 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena 2 DVD Best Buy I was again at Best Buy the microscopic picture of the box has been replaced. There is now no mention of a bonus DVD but the price is down to 46.99. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #219 **************************************