From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #208 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, July 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 208 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls ["Cheryl Ande" I skimmed the article. There is nothing new here but it does cover all the > reasons people were upset with FIN. I however don't accept many of her > arguments. I believe Tapert had the right to do what he wanted with the > characters he created. If he wanted to kill Xena off that was his right. > It seems a whole passel of people believe they should be able to take > characters Taper created and use them as they wish whether to write fan > fiction or do artwork yet they believe Tapert should have asked their > permission to what he wanted with his creations. The saddest irony for me is the double-edged sword of encouraging fan involvement. I'm not naive about the ratings and marketing aspects of fan enthusiasm. I don't doubt that Tapert's original idea benefitted greatly from the "heart" that the relationship gave it. However, I thinkTapert risked as much as he might've gained. Tapert's approach to fans was much like his approach to Xenastaff -- respect for how others' input could enhance output. From the beginning he showed a commitment to diversity that probably turned off as many people as appreciated it. Sure, now we know that he got get away with what many thought were controversial subjects. We forget that, in the beginning, it was risky even having a female hero. We forget why the show was in syndication, subject to the vagaries of that programming and initially ridiculed in many quarters. Tapert's unfortunate challenge was that the show did too good a job of being welcoming, that it was so successful in paving new ground -- to the point where many fans took all that for granted. Personally. He went "overboard" in trying to connect with fans, some of whom thanked him by hoping he drowned or turning into a feeding frenzy of sharks. I can understand folks disagreeing over certain content and how the show ended. Like you, what I can't understand is taking his creation and making it theirs, while completely disregarding his desire for it to be his as well. The author of that article seemed to think Tapert's production of his vision was a "privilege," not a "right." Apparently, we masses give him that privilege by simply turning on our TV's, which gives us the right to tell him what to do with all the time, money and effort he invested. Apparently we "own" culture because it influences how we think and behave. To me, there's something wrong with that picture. Maybe I need to get out more. The author must live in some place I haven't experienced yet, where commercial artists produce work for the purpose of trying to satisfy everyone but themselves, then get beat up in proportion to how well they succeed. Hmmm. On second thought, I don't think I want to go there after all. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:47:59 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls In a message dated 7/22/2003 9:18:18 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > Solstice Carol - I think this is the last time we see Gabby actually being > a > story teller. I don't remember her ever telling stories after this. << Can we count the story she tells to that little girl in "If The Shoe Fits"? Heh. > She said it was > alright for Xena to be second to Gabrielle but she certainly shouldn't take > second place to Ares. I think it shows something of Lucy's perception of > the > series - she certainly saw herself as the star but she also saw ROC her > co-star and equal.>> Hmmm, I got the impression that was more a comment about "protecting" the characters -- that Xena and Gabrielle were the focus (and equals). - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:39:31 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls On Wednesday 23 July 2003 16:47, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/22/2003 9:18:18 PM Central Daylight Time, > > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > Solstice Carol - I think this is the last time we see Gabby actually > > being a > > story teller. I don't remember her ever telling stories after this. << > > Can we count the story she tells to that little girl in "If The Shoe Fits"? > Heh. Errrmm.... that was hardly an exclusive story, though. Everybody had a go at it, IIRC. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:01:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 On Wednesday 23 July 2003 11:50, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I skimmed the article. There is nothing new here but it does cover all the > reasons people were upset with FIN. I however don't accept many of her > arguments. I believe Tapert had the right to do what he wanted with the > characters he created. If he wanted to kill Xena off that was his right. > It seems a whole passel of people believe they should be able to take > characters Taper created and use them as they wish whether to write fan > fiction or do artwork yet they believe Tapert should have asked their > permission to what he wanted with his creations. (Rest of excellent post snipped.) Thanks, cande (and lfe). You both made the argument far more rationally than I ever could. (I tend to get indignant on the subject ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:19:05 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls On Wednesday 23 July 2003 14:26, Cheryl Ande wrote: > I watched these two this weekend and some observations. > > Solstice Carol - I think this is the last time we see Gabby actually being > a story teller. I don't remember her ever telling stories after this. > Then there is always one part that always unintentionally amuses me. When > the orphans are singing their carol I always notice that Lucy is so > ladylike while listening to the song. She sits with hands folded in her > lap and I always think there's Lucy's Catholic school training rearing its > head. Finally doesn't Lucy looked elegant as the Fate of Solstice Past. Not my cup of tea at all, this ep. Of course, I probably have an unconscious prejudice against it because I absolutely loathed Dickens when subjected to it at school. (This loathing does not extent to all Victorian writers - only Dickens :) But any ep that has lots of cute orphans is just so - Touched by an Angel territory. One of those S1 eps that probably had a couple of good bits in it, but not good enough to make me watch it again. :) > Xena Scrolls - Still one of my favorites and an imaginative clip show. I > really like that Xena and Gabrielle's decedents flip personalities. Mel is > the innocent who has faith in her new friend Janice. Janice is of course > the dark character who needs to be redeemed by friendship. It was also a > nice chance for ROC to be the lead for once. Lucy I gather wasn't fond of > this episode. I remember reading in the first companion book that she > thought Xena was too much in the background and was actually taking second > place to Ares. She said something interesting if I remember it correctly. > She said it was alright for Xena to be second to Gabrielle but she > certainly shouldn't take second place to Ares. I think it shows something > of Lucy's perception of the series - she certainly saw herself as the star > but she also saw ROC her co-star and equal. > > CherylA I didn't care for this ep the first time I saw it - I guess I just found the 'modern' setting and the absence of Xena disconcerting. But I liked it much better on later acquaintance. I thought the ending, where Joxer's descendant pitches the idea to Rob Tapert, and the 'Xena' theme starts up and cuts off hanging in mid-verse (or whatever it's called), was a really neat idea. And I always love it when 'Xena' gets her powers back, whether in Chakram, or Xena Scrolls, or Soul Possession. I guess Lucy must be doing that well. And I can't resist saying, I was highly amused when Ares told Janice to 'think irritating blonde' and she immediately thought of Callisto. 'Wrong blonde'. Shades of Annie's dismay in Deja Vu - "He's the comic relief!". Note for the props department: Janice's machine gun was very poor. You can easily do better than that. It looked vaguely like a Vickers or a Maxim, but had a hand-crank on the side like a Gatling (which hadn't been used for several decades and wouldn't be used again in principle until the sixties), but in neither case would the bullets or muzzle flashes come from random points around the front of the casing. I can think of no practical gun mechanism that would do that. Techno-YAXI. This isn't just a minor nitpick along the lines of "but they wouldn't have had a 1943-model Schnitzenspitzen in Macedonia in 1940", this is more like "The gun looked horribly FAKE". :( Incidentally, what *was* Janice doing with a machine gun anyway? It's really a little bit impractical for keeping sneak-thieves out of your tent. Oh, never mind.... ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:17:04 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 On Wednesday 23 July 2003 16:41, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > The author of that article seemed to think Tapert's production of his > vision was a "privilege," not a "right." Apparently, we masses give him > that privilege by simply turning on our TV's, which gives us the right to > tell him what to do with all the time, money and effort he invested. > Apparently we "own" culture because it influences how we think and behave. > To me, there's something wrong with that picture. Maybe I need to get out > more. The author must live in some place I haven't experienced yet, where > commercial artists produce work for the purpose of trying to satisfy > everyone but themselves, then get beat up in proportion to how well they > succeed. Hmmm. On second thought, I don't think I want to go there after > all. > > -- Ife I love it when you're being sarcastic! ;) It always amuses me the logical contortions some of these folks have to go through to 'prove' that they owe nothing to the creators of the show, but the creators somehow owe them for watching. I should live in such a world. Car rental companies would pay me to drive their cars and rush to fit all the accessories I might take a fancy to. If Tapert owed anything to anyone else, surely he owed it to the people who put up the money (much though we may love to hate them); to the cast and crew who made the series (yes they got paid, but an employer still owes his employees some consideration); to *all* the viewers, including the great mass of casual viewers who made up the ratings and thus kept the show in production; oh yes, and, I guess, The Fans may fit in there somewhere, but I doubt if they're the centre of the universe. This is leaving aside the non-trivial practical problem of deciding what exactly 'the fans' want. Could be an entertaining exercise - for those who like blood sports :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:21:35 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 In a message dated 7/23/03 7:17:10 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << Maybe I need to get out > more. The author must live in some place I haven't experienced yet, where > commercial artists produce work for the purpose of trying to satisfy > everyone but themselves, then get beat up in proportion to how well they > succeed. Hmmm. On second thought, I don't think I want to go there after > all. > > -- Ife I love it when you're being sarcastic! ;) >> Anything for you, dahling. Well, almost anything. Some things? Sarcasm. I'll stick with the sarcasm until I find the right set of false ... eyelashes. - -- Ife (feeling naughty) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:21:34 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls In a message dated 7/23/03 7:18:53 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << Incidentally, what *was* Janice doing with a machine gun anyway? >> It went well with the cigar? - - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:21:36 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls In a message dated 7/23/03 7:12:52 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << On Wednesday 23 July 2003 16:47, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/22/2003 9:18:18 PM Central Daylight Time, > > cande@sunlink.net writes: > > Solstice Carol - I think this is the last time we see Gabby actually > > being a > > story teller. I don't remember her ever telling stories after this. << > > Can we count the story she tells to that little girl in "If The Shoe Fits"? > Heh. Errrmm.... that was hardly an exclusive story, though. Everybody had a go at it, IIRC. cr >> Why did I know you'd say that, Mr. Picky? You'd probably disqualify the story she was telling in "Animal Attraction" as well, since she was telling it exclusively to Aphrodite. Cheryl didn't give any restrictions, though admittedly I figured she meant telling a crowd a story. I seem to recall another story-telling session, but the old brain can't retrieve anything. Oh! What about when she invented Charades in "Unforgiven"? No, that was somebody else's story. Oh well. - - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:21:37 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls In a message dated 7/23/03 3:17:06 AM Central Daylight Time, Richan writes: << < >Solstice Carol - I think this is the last time we see Gabby actually being >a >story teller. I don't remember her ever telling stories after this. << >> Hmmm? Story teller? Writer? Bard? A bard is a combination of story teller and writer. We see Gabrielle write later on in several episodes not to mention direct a play and produce a talent show. But you may you be right about the performance part of being a story teller. What I believe this shows is the evolution of an artist, an actual representation on of Gabrielle's career. >> Oh, excellent point. Along with the other examples you give (which I apologize for snipping), this does suggest a more conscious effort to show her development in that area. I hadn't quite thought of it that way before. Interestingly, in "Fates" it seems that her work is performed by others in public -- a sign of the "fame" that she would've achieved had she not hooked up with Xena. Other eps (like "Legacy") give the impression that her stories spread by word of mouth in a much more informal way, yet had more lasting power and impact because of her life with Xena. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:07:28 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Solstice Carol and Xena Scrolls - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > > Note for the props department: Janice's machine gun was very poor. You can > easily do better than that. It looked vaguely like a Vickers or a Maxim, > but had a hand-crank on the side like a Gatling (which hadn't been used for > several decades and wouldn't be used again in principle until the sixties), > but in neither case would the bullets or muzzle flashes come from random > points around the front of the casing. I can think of no practical gun > mechanism that would do that. Techno-YAXI. This isn't just a minor > nitpick along the lines of "but they wouldn't have had a 1943-model > Schnitzenspitzen in Macedonia in 1940", this is more like "The gun looked > horribly FAKE". :( Perhaps they were just so use to getting sword they just couldn't figure out the gun thing. > > Incidentally, what *was* Janice doing with a machine gun anyway? It's > really a little bit impractical for keeping sneak-thieves out of your tent. > Oh, never mind.... ;) > Well a girl has to be prepared. Anyway I agree with you about the gatling gun . If she had the desire to have a machine gun she probably would have had one of those tommy guns gangsters were so fond of. It would have been more useful and easier to handle. BTW did you notice what lousy shots everyone was. They were practically shooting at point blank range and still couldn't hit what they were shooting at. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:18:20 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #207 Sophia wrote: > > If real people had lived the same life as Xena and Gabrielle then yes they > would have the same end. > See, Xena and Gabrielle are more than just friends or soulmates or anything > else. They don't have a house, a place to end up the night. Each of them > doesn't have a place or a time for herself. We never saw them to chose to be > alone and think except the times they had fought. And the most important is > that they never wanted to do all these I wrote. Can you understand it? They > had house. They had each other for house. The place to end up the night was > those two and nothing else. And that gave them hapiness. They didn't need > something more. They didn' t need a time for themselves all they need was > each other. They lived through each other. > After all these you expect me to believe that one them can die and the other > can live and go on with her life? Impossible to my eyes. They can only live > when they live together. Yes I think you are quit right that they were home for each other. I also understand why you believe Gabrielle couldn't go on without Xena. I think however that Gabrielle is a very strong person. I think she would want to live her life as a tribute to Xena. I also think she will always have Xena with her. I was just thinking about the film Titanic. What I liked about the film was that the Kate Winslet character didn't give up on life when her lover died. Instead she lived the life he wanted for her - a full happy life with children and grandchildren to love and who loved her. I'd like to think of Gabrielle grabing life by the throat and conquering it. Going forth to battle for good. To live a life that Xena would be proud of. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:20:16 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Gabrielle in retirement /I'd like to /think of Gabrielle grabing life by the throat and conquering it. I always thought Gabrielle ended up as a beloved village storyteller. "Hi ya, kids. It's your old Aunty Gabby." Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #208 **************************************