From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #199 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, July 15 2003 Volume 03 : Number 199 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN 2 ["Jackie M. Young" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 [cr Xena was a loaded gun. She knew it. We knew it. It's what made her > >the tragic hero whose greatest enemy was herself. The stakes were high and > >could be fatal at any given moment. I hold her to the same standard of > >responsibility I do anyone who handles a firearm -- a perfect 100% in > >making sure it's stored, carried and used safely, certainly never when the > >bearer is drunk. Evil Xena didn't care about that. Reformed Xena did. > >Both of them made mistakes for which the latter accepted responsibility. > >Why else would we Xena fans even think of forgiving Reformed Xena's > >mistakes or calling her a hero, while others consider both her and Evil > >Xena criminals? > > So, in effect, you're saying that Xena is *never* allowed to do what > everybody else in the world was allowed to do, and get drunk occasionally?>> Yep. > That doesn't seem fair. >> Nope. However, as I said, this was the burden she put on herself when she chose to live and fight for good. Given her capacity for doing great harm, I think it was an appropriate price to pay. "Out of control" Xena was not a good thing under any circumstances. Ask Gabs. Xena would never have got drunk before a battle. > > But she had no reason to expect trouble on that occasion.>> Juvenile Delinquent Xena smoked opium, then wandered into Lao Ma's tent and got her butt kicked (which probably would've happened anyway, but Xena didn't know that). She swaggered around and threw caution to the wind, arrogantly confident that she would prevail (which Caesar used to defeat her). Reformed Xena was always prepared for the unexpected, even when it snuck up on her. More importantly, she was vigilant about her own capacity to do harm, even tho she "lost it" a couple of times (e.g, in her rage at the villagers she thought killed her "father"). It's not the drunkenness I'm talking about, so much as Reformed Xena's commitment to anticipate and prevent herself from harming people who were not warriors. > > >Again, I'm not arguing that the situation we got in AFIN was plausible or > >that the townfolk were blameless. I simply don't see how we can give Xena > >credit for her extraordinary lethalness on her good days, then ignore that > >superiority when she misfires and say, "Oh, she wasn't any worse than us > >toy pistols on a bad day." > > > >-- Ife > > I agree, we can't give credit for the usefulness of something and then > ignore > its bad effects. > But in Higuchi, Xena *wasn't* superior on that occasion.>> Why not? Are you saying she lost her superior lethal capacity because of her grief and lack of protection or weapons? Superior numbers weren't exactly a problem for her. Superior (supernatural) powers weren't either. These folk weren't any more dangerous than the ones she didn't want to hurt in "Reckoning" or "Sacrifice." > > If someone is superior, give them credit for it. If they're *not* > superior, > then don't give them credit, but I absolutely don't agree with blaming them > for not being superior. Did Xena do worse than the average person would > have? Not in my view. >> To me, Xena was never "the average person." Yes, she experienced the same feelings. Yes, there were others who showed equal courage, determination or skill at some point. But Xena's curse and her superiority both stemmed from young Xena's hunger for any knowledge that could make her "best" her foes -- e.g., the "pinch," the Amazons' tree-climbing, Alti and Lao Ma's spiritual powers, the Rheingold. Except for Lao Ma, she made it her business to become superior to -- sometimes even destroy -- those she learned from (e.g., Cyane, Borias). Young Xena may have been like the average person emotionally, but not in her lethalness. She eventually became the mature, consummate warrior whom we knew could defeat any enemy she chose. Even when she was blind. > You notice also, the mob didn't confront her, they didn't block her path > and > say "Sorry, but we cannot permit this. Please bury your friend elsewhere". > > Instead, they just attacked her. > If she'd been the "average person" stumbling down the street, the Higuchi folks might've acted differently. But the "average person" wouldn't have singlehandedly defeated master sumurai to steal a prized sword, stormed into a well-protected wealthy household, and appeared as some strange demon with no regard for life or customs. If they knew about Akemi's prior actions, they no doubt knew about Xena's too. They had every right to fear such a person, to expect that a polite request would be rebuffed. If they acted rashly out of fear and anger, I can't dismiss that as less justifiable than Xena's drunken anguish. Both sides protected themselves the best way they knew how. I blame Xena (and Akemi) for creating the situation and the stickwielders for responding in kind. I hold all responsible for the innocent lives lost as a result. However, the stickwielders weren't the reasonYodoshi trapped those souls. They weren't around afterwards to "make it right," nor did they have the superior skills required. Xena was and did. She didn't quibble about degrees of blame. Unlike her younger self, she made the uncommon decision to take responsibility -- to "act responsibly." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 22:56:19 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] FIN 2 On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:56:02 +1200, cr wrote: On Sunday 13 July 2003 13:50, Cheryl Ande wrote: >> Perhaps everyone has the right to get drunk but you are responsible for >> what you do when drunk. Diminished capacity is not a defense (and one >>that Xena would not use). > >Incorrect. It is a defense, actually, whether Xena would want to use it >or not. Just not when driving, since the law specifically forbids you >to drive in such a state. It does not forbid you to walk down the >street in such a state. - --I respectfully disagree. Have you heard of "drunk and disorderly"? That's also a cause for arrest, at least in the US. ;P That charge does not necessarily involve a vehicle. You can also call the cops on the charge of just "loitering". Many of the homeless in our area are just sitting, some drunk, some not, but they certainly don't belong on private property, and not on public property if they're not using it for the purposes for which it was intended. Admittedly, X was bothering no one just by walking drunk, but she still had to be responsible for her behavior on a public street. If she was sitting in her own house, drunk, and the mob attacked her on her own property, then the fault was clearly with the mob. Since she was on public property, we then need to decide whether she acted responsibly or not. Therein lies the rub. ;/ >You notice also, the mob didn't confront her, they didn't block her path >and say "Sorry, but we cannot permit this. Please bury your friend >elsewhere". Instead, they just attacked her. - --Yes, that was "not good" (in Autolycus' words ;) ). X was not in law enforcement, so we can't say it was an "inappropriate use of force", but she was a professional warrior and should've known you don't use an ax to kill a fly (in Lao Ma's words ;) ). IMO, she was defending herself, but the use of fire turned out to be overkill in that instance, plus she should've "cleaned up after herself" (as she learned later to do) and checked whether the fire had spread or not. IMO, she was partially responsible for the deaths in Higuchi, and that was what she felt she had to atone for. Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:57:24 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 On Monday 14 July 2003 18:30, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > So, in effect, you're saying that Xena is *never* allowed to do what > > everybody else in the world was allowed to do, and get drunk > > occasionally?>> > > Yep. > > > That doesn't seem fair. >> > > Nope. However, as I said, this was the burden she put on herself when she > chose to live and fight for good. But she hadn't decided that at that time, anyway. So that's irrelevant. > Given her capacity for doing great harm, > I think it was an appropriate price to pay. "Out of control" Xena was not > a good thing under any circumstances. Ask Gabs. Now you're definitely trying to wind me up. You *know* what I think of Gabs' judgement. (Sorry, Gabfans, blame lfe :) > Xena would never have got drunk before a battle. > > > > But she had no reason to expect trouble on that occasion.>> > > Juvenile Delinquent Xena smoked opium, then wandered into Lao Ma's tent and > got her butt kicked (which probably would've happened anyway, but Xena > didn't know that). So? Maybe she should have expected trouble from Lao Ma. What that has to do with burying her friend I don't know. Oh, I see, my comment about not getting drunk before a battle. OK, I was wrong. But the opium didn't seem to slow her up much. In fact, considering the state of her legs, it may have helped her. > She swaggered around and threw caution to the wind, > arrogantly confident that she would prevail (which Caesar used to defeat > her). Reformed Xena was always prepared for the unexpected, even when it > snuck up on her. More importantly, she was vigilant about her own capacity > to do harm, even tho she "lost it" a couple of times (e.g, in her rage at > the villagers she thought killed her "father"). It's not the drunkenness > I'm talking about, so much as Reformed Xena's commitment to anticipate and > prevent herself from harming people who were not warriors. But this wasn't reformed Xena. You can't judge her by those standards. I just judge her by the same standards I would anybody else. > > >Again, I'm not arguing that the situation we got in AFIN was plausible > > > or that the townfolk were blameless. I simply don't see how we can > > > give Xena credit for her extraordinary lethalness on her good days, > > > then ignore that superiority when she misfires and say, "Oh, she wasn't > > > any worse than us toy pistols on a bad day." > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > I agree, we can't give credit for the usefulness of something and then > > ignore > > its bad effects. > > But in Higuchi, Xena *wasn't* superior on that occasion.>> > > Why not? Are you saying she lost her superior lethal capacity because of > her grief and lack of protection or weapons? Yes. That and being drunk. IIRC, you implied that she should have had her weapons on her. (Or was it Cande?) > Superior numbers weren't > exactly a problem for her. Superior (supernatural) powers weren't either. > These folk weren't any more dangerous than the ones she didn't want to hurt > in "Reckoning" or "Sacrifice." Errrm, remind me, but weren't the ones in The Reckoning and Sacrifice in the power of some god or other? Therefore, not responsible for their actions. The mob in Higuchi were entirely responsible for their actions. Different case. (snip) > > You notice also, the mob didn't confront her, they didn't block her path > > and > > say "Sorry, but we cannot permit this. Please bury your friend > > elsewhere". > > > > Instead, they just attacked her. > > If she'd been the "average person" stumbling down the street, the Higuchi > folks might've acted differently. But the "average person" wouldn't have > singlehandedly defeated master sumurai to steal a prized sword, stormed > into a well-protected wealthy household, and appeared as some strange demon > with no regard for life or customs. If they knew about Akemi's prior > actions, they no doubt knew about Xena's too. Oh no no no no lfe, you don't get away with that. I think you're trying far too hard. There are no grounds for assuming that the mob knew anything of Xena's capabilities. Firstly, mobs rarely do know anything other than rumours. Secondly, Xena got the sword in a different part of the country. If the mob knew so little that they thought killing Yodoshi was a crime, why would they know anything about Xena? And who says Yodoshi's household was well-protected? I didn't see any signs of opposition until Xena burst through the screen, and then it was just two guys. And anyway Xena hardly 'stormed' it, it was Akemi who sneaked in. And do you *really* think, if Xena had been known to be harmless, the mob would have acted any differently? Excuse me, this is a little bit like saying Dahak would have been a nice person if only someone had talked to him the right way? > They had every right to fear > such a person, to expect that a polite request would be rebuffed. If they > acted rashly out of fear and anger, I can't dismiss that as less > justifiable than Xena's drunken anguish. I can. A mob picking on one person is almost *never* justifiable. Since when did a mob ever make a polite request? > Both sides protected themselves the best way they knew how. I blame Xena > (and Akemi) for creating the situation and the stickwielders for responding > in kind. What, you blame Akemi for killing a monster like Yodoshi? Or Xena for trying to give her a decent burial? Come on..... > I hold all responsible for the innocent lives lost as a result. > However, the stickwielders weren't the reasonYodoshi trapped those souls. Well, other than the fact they were (IMO) the most blameworthy cause of the fire.... You see, you have one the one hand, a heartbroken person trying to fulfil her friend's last wishes and give her a decent burial. And on the other hand you have a mob attacking her without mercy. Guess whose side I'm on. ;) > They weren't around afterwards to "make it right," nor did they have the > superior skills required. Xena was and did. She didn't quibble about > degrees of blame. Unlike her younger self, she made the uncommon decision > to take responsibility -- to "act responsibly." > > -- Ife You see, I don't think Xena needed to be blameworthy to make the decision she did. I don't think she even needed to blame herself. She would have made that decsision anyway, IMO. But as for the mob, they can rot in whatever passes for Hell in those parts so far as I'm concerned. At the very best you could call them a bunch of religious bigots. They were showing the nasty side of their nature and some of them paid for it. Just an unfortunate accident (yes accidents do happen) that the rest of Higuchi paid for it too. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:14:38 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN cr wrote: "Incorrect. It is a defense, actually, whether Xena would want to use it or not. Just not when driving, since the law specifically forbids you to drive in such a state. It does not forbid you to walk down the street in such a state." Well we do have laws about public drunkedness. I don't know about NZ but announcing you were drunk at the time you did something in the US won't garner you much sympathy with a jury. I think the "I was drunk at the time" defense isn't the best one any more, if it ever was. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:29:27 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Random Thoughts: Intimate Stranger & 10 Little Warlords Having watched these two episodes this weekend I was struck by a couple of thoughts. The first being is what a good mimic Lucy really is. She did a very good job as Callisto right down to the mannerisms. She had that wild glint in her eyes that HL used to get and in the scene where she killed Theodorius she has a look of such orgasmic pleasure it is a bit disconcerting. The one thing Lucy has always been good at when playing her various look alikes is staying in character - her Xena never bleds into her Callisto. Her Callisto walks different than Xena and even her speech patterns are altered. It is no wonder Argo knows it isn't her Xena. Even Gabrielle despite the evidence of her own eyes is not too hard to convince that Xena is actually Callisto simply because the fake Xena is so different than the real Xena. The second thought is how boring Xena could be if it wasn't for Lucy. In 10 Little Warlords, Hudson of course took over the role of Xena. This is no slam at Hudson who step into a role to help out in an emergency. Hudson herself said she didn't have a clue about playing Xena and just sort emulated John Wayne - got serious and talked low. As you watch this episode you know that Lucy would have made more out of the comic opportunities presented in this episode. Xena dealing with the supper-aggressive Gabrielle was made for some good by-play between LL and ROC but without that chemistry it is just Xena telling Gabby to calm down. You also know that Lucy and Kevin Smith would have used their chemistry to greater effect in their scenes together. In the scene where the hung over Ares hurls over the side of the boat, Hudson's reaction is just a raised eyebrow but you know Lucy would have had some snide comment to make. Xena in TLW is just a bit boring without the LL's wit and personality - a stoic warrior doesn't make for exciting TV. Finally as I watched ROC in TLW I wonder what in the world her acting classes are doing to her. In the current Chakram she said she was taking a sitcom class (shudder). After one bad audition (her view) and some classes she has decided comedy wasn't for her - at least sitcoms weren't for her. Now when you watch her in TLW she is very funny as she tries and fails constantly to control her fury over everything from the price of fishcakes to Joxer's profoundly annoying ramblings. So when she didn't know what she was doing she had the confidence to tear into the comedy and do a wonderful job. Now that she has taken classes and been told how she must act to be funny she apparently had a bit of her confidence shaken. Perhaps the problem is the class - comedy I believ is instinct and timing and ROC seems to have that. I am glad her two new projects are comedies because I think she is a natural at it. She just has to stay away from sitcoms - they are the killers of comedy. ( Henry Irving, the great English actor on his deathbed when asked about dying said: "Dying is easy; comedy is hard.") CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:09:31 -0700 From: "Ernie" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Random Thoughts: Intimate Stranger & 10 Little Warlords Other great examples of ROC's comedic talent are "Fins, Femmes and Gems," where she was under Aphrodite's spell and so very full of herself ("Oh, listen to a story 'bout Gab-ri-elle..." I still get a laugh out of that), and "In Sickness & In Hell," ("Theena, I gand veel my nongue...thon um a nitth!"), and her trying to whistle with a mouthful of spit. And let's not forget the Mike Tyson number she did when wrestling with that rabbit. Ernie - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "chaky" Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:29 AM Subject: [chakram-refugees] Random Thoughts: Intimate Stranger & 10 Little Warlords > Having watched these two episodes this weekend I was struck by a couple of thoughts. The first being is what a good mimic Lucy really is. She did a very good job as Callisto right down to the mannerisms. She had that wild glint in her eyes that HL used to get and in the scene where she killed Theodorius she has a look of such orgasmic pleasure it is a bit disconcerting. The one thing Lucy has always been good at when playing her various look alikes is staying in character - her Xena never bleds into her Callisto. Her Callisto walks different than Xena and even her speech patterns are altered. It is no wonder Argo knows it isn't her Xena. Even Gabrielle despite the evidence of her own eyes is not too hard to convince that Xena is actually Callisto simply because the fake Xena is so different than the real Xena. > > The second thought is how boring Xena could be if it wasn't for Lucy. In 10 Little Warlords, Hudson of course took over the role of Xena. This is no slam at Hudson who step into a role to help out in an emergency. Hudson herself said she didn't have a clue about playing Xena and just sort emulated John Wayne - got serious and talked low. As you watch this episode you know that Lucy would have made more out of the comic opportunities presented in this episode. Xena dealing with the supper-aggressive Gabrielle was made for some good by-play between LL and ROC but without that chemistry it is just Xena telling Gabby to calm down. You also know that Lucy and Kevin Smith would have used their chemistry to greater effect in their scenes together. In the scene where the hung over Ares hurls over the side of the boat, Hudson's reaction is just a raised eyebrow but you know Lucy would have had some snide comment to make. Xena in TLW is just a bit boring without the LL's wit a! > nd personality - a stoic warrior doesn't make for exciting TV. > > Finally as I watched ROC in TLW I wonder what in the world her acting classes are doing to her. In the current Chakram she said she was taking a sitcom class (shudder). After one bad audition (her view) and some classes she has decided comedy wasn't for her - at least sitcoms weren't for her. Now when you watch her in TLW she is very funny as she tries and fails constantly to control her fury over everything from the price of fishcakes to Joxer's profoundly annoying ramblings. So when she didn't know what she was doing she had the confidence to tear into the comedy and do a wonderful job. Now that she has taken classes and been told how she must act to be funny she apparently had a bit of her confidence shaken. Perhaps the problem is the class - comedy I believ is instinct and timing and ROC seems to have that. I am glad her two new projects are comedies because I think she is a natural at it. She just has to stay away from sitcoms - they are the killers of comedy. ( H! > enry Irving, the great English actor on his deathbed when asked about dying said: "Dying is easy; comedy is hard.") > > CherylA > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #199 **************************************