From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #198 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, July 14 2003 Volume 03 : Number 198 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 On Sunday 13 July 2003 13:50, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > > I still maintain that it is everybody's perfectly legal provilege to get > > drunk on occasion. Just as it's everyone's perfectly legal privilege to > > get > > tired, or sick on occasion. Nobody can be or is expected to be 100% all > > the > > time. Xena had no particular reason to expect to be attacked by a mob, > > therefore I don't blame her in the slightest for getting drunk on that > > occasion. > > > > cr > > Perhaps everyone has the right to get drunk but you are responsible for > what you do when drunk. Diminished capacity is not a defense (and one that > Xena would not use). Incorrect. It is a defense, actually, whether Xena would want to use it or not. Just not when driving, since the law specifically forbids you to drive in such a state. It does not forbid you to walk down the street in such a state. > We just had a case in Texas where a lady got drunk > and stoned hit some poor guy and drove home with him still on the hood of > her car. He defense was she was really stoned and she was really sorry she > did it (she apologized to the guy as he was dying on her car hood). I > presume she could have also argued the guy should have looked both ways > before he crossed the street but her lawyer did not have enough nerve for > that argument. Nevertheless The jury found her guilty of murder and sent > her to prison for 50 years. That was more complicated though, she failed to get help for the guy afterwards. Not relevant to the current case IMO. > Xena had an excuse for getting drunk but there > was at least one good reason she should have at least delayed her binge - > she made a promise to Akemi to take her ashes to the shrine. Given the > state stae she was in it was probable she would have fallen flat on her > face before she even got to the shrine. Demonstrably incorrect. :) She managed to safeguard Akemi's ashes for a short while even after the mob confronted her. > No Xena showed remarkably poor > judgement and she bears responsibilty fro what she did when drunk. But I > think we are now entering the area of agreeing to disagree. > > CherylA We are indeed. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:39:19 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 On Sunday 13 July 2003 14:56, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/11/2003 11:42:33 PM Central Daylight Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Umm, Xena was entitled to defend herself in whatever manner was available > > to > > her in the circumstances. In fact, had she been stone cold sober, could > > she > > or would she have done any different? I doubt it. >> > > She might've noticed folks trailing her in a less than welcoming manner. And done precisely what about it? > She might not've gone walking about without her weapons, since she usually > prepared for the unexpected even in familiar surroundings. And her weapons would have achieved what? Made the mob leave her alone? I doubt it. Let her kill a lot more of them? In fact, had she carried her weapons, I daresay someone would be arguing that she was at fault for provoking the situation. > She might've > decided on honoring Akemi's ashes at another time in a more sneaky manner. 'Sneaky' is a bad word to use. Can you see Xena - sober - doing that? > However, I think you're right -- that she would've chosen to exert her will > no matter what, with little regard for local customs or hesitation to > attack villagers. You say exert her will. I call it honouring Akemi's last request. You say 'attacking villagers' - who attacked first? > And that's one of the things that made her different, > more dangerous than Reformed Xena -- her unwillingness or inability to > control her impulses even when sober or to exercise vigilance that might > minimize uncontrollable situations. > > I believe she grieved her own complicity (rooted in her initial greed) in > Akemi's death, that she immersed herself in it to the point where she > didn't even consider kicking those clogs off and running/leaping to safety > to buy herself time to come up with another alternative. Reformed Xena > would've tried to do that. Even when the Furies drove her insane, she > recognized that she was herself a lethal weapon that she had responsibility > for using appropriately regardless of the situation. Is that fair? It was > to Xena. It was the price she put on herself for allowing such a weapon to > exist only because she'd committed to putting it to good use. Well of course. And I only hold people responsible for the reasonably foreseeable consequences of their actions. Did Xena have any reason to suspect opposition? Not that I know of. If she had, she might well have decided to bury Akemi before she got drunk. (biiig snip) > Third, Xena was a loaded gun. She knew it. We knew it. It's what made her > the tragic hero whose greatest enemy was herself. The stakes were high and > could be fatal at any given moment. I hold her to the same standard of > responsibility I do anyone who handles a firearm -- a perfect 100% in > making sure it's stored, carried and used safely, certainly never when the > bearer is drunk. Evil Xena didn't care about that. Reformed Xena did. > Both of them made mistakes for which the latter accepted responsibility. > Why else would we Xena fans even think of forgiving Reformed Xena's > mistakes or calling her a hero, while others consider both her and Evil > Xena criminals? So, in effect, you're saying that Xena is *never* allowed to do what everybody else in the world was allowed to do, and get drunk occasionally? That doesn't seem fair. Xena would never have got drunk before a battle. But she had no reason to expect trouble on that occasion. > Again, I'm not arguing that the situation we got in AFIN was plausible or > that the townfolk were blameless. I simply don't see how we can give Xena > credit for her extraordinary lethalness on her good days, then ignore that > superiority when she misfires and say, "Oh, she wasn't any worse than us > toy pistols on a bad day." > > -- Ife I agree, we can't give credit for the usefulness of something and then ignore its bad effects. But in Higuchi, Xena *wasn't* superior on that occasion. If someone is superior, give them credit for it. If they're *not* superior, then don't give them credit, but I absolutely don't agree with blaming them for not being superior. Did Xena do worse than the average person would have? Not in my view. You notice also, the mob didn't confront her, they didn't block her path and say "Sorry, but we cannot permit this. Please bury your friend elsewhere". Instead, they just attacked her. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #198 **************************************