From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #197 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, July 13 2003 Volume 03 : Number 197 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Old Xena Mentions [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 [IfeRae@aol.co] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:22:11 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 On Friday 11 July 2003 13:30, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > > The town burning down was an unforeseen consequence. The rest of the > > townspeople, who were not in the mob, should not be held guilty for the > > actions of the mob. They were innocent victims of misadventure. > > > > You're implying some close link between the mob and the rest of the > > townspeople. I disagree. I'm sure there are 100 or so scum in your > > town who would form a mob - do they represent you, or you them? > > No I am not implying a close link between the mob and the innocents of > Haguchi or at least I didn't mean to. I didn't think you meant to, I think you did but obviously without intending to. > I believe I was saying that some > people have stated that somehow the people got what they deserved for > attacking Xena. Xena had every right to defend herself from the mob. The > people who were not in the mob were innocents and those were the ones, I > believe, Xena had to avenge. The mob had a responsibility in the deaths of > their fellow citizens but they are already punished - they died and got > gobbled up by Yodoshi. Xena had a responsibility to defend herself in a > rational manner 36 years ago. Umm, Xena was entitled to defend herself in whatever manner was available to her in the circumstances. In fact, had she been stone cold sober, could she or would she have done any different? I doubt it. > Xena couldn't do that because she was drunk > out of her mind. Her decision that night to take Akemi's ashes to the > shrine while drunk led to the not only the burning of Haguchi but also the > failure to put Akemi to rest. Let's face it if Xena had been sober she > would have easily defeated the mob - they weren't warriors in any sense of > the word - and Akemi would have made it to her family's shrine. As I see > it Xena indulged in an orgy of self-pity and killed a lot people when it > got out of hand. What is more I think Xena herself understood that and > that was why she took responsibility for the innocents. > > CherylA I still maintain that it is everybody's perfectly legal provilege to get drunk on occasion. Just as it's everyone's perfectly legal privilege to get tired, or sick on occasion. Nobody can be or is expected to be 100% all the time. Xena had no particular reason to expect to be attacked by a mob, therefore I don't blame her in the slightest for getting drunk on that occasion. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:00:18 -0700 From: "Ernie" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 See below for comments without the little >> thingies. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 > In a message dated 7/11/2003 10:04:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > bloodyvisigoths@netzero.net writes: > > > I thought I'd come out of lurkdom for a moment or two to wade in on this > > issue. >> > > > Welcome! Thanks for the welcome! > > In my own pretty much irrelevant opinion,>> > > Heh, it's as least as relevant as the rest of ours. Eh, maybe so... ;) > it was the mob who was responsible> > > for all of those deaths. True, Xena was drunk, but so what? She was in pain, > > she got drunk in an effort to dull that pain, and she was in mourning for > > Akemi. In her addled state, she was trying to do right by Akemi by taking > > her ashes home. >> > > I don't happen to think grief and being drunk absolve her from the the > potential or actual consequences of walking down the street in that state. No doubt > she had no thought about encountering others, but that's the problem with > drowning one's sorrows -- it reduces the capacity to think. Fortunately Xena > didn't have access to a car. True enough, I grudgingly admit. > And Xena defended herself in what was the most effective> > > manner available to her (not that she really gave it that much thought; she > > just wanted to stop the attack). I don't think she was in the least bit > > responsible for those forty thousand deaths, the mob was. They instigated > > the entire incident.>> > > > Yes, I agree that the mob provoked what happened. But if you excuse Xena > because of her state, you have to excuse the mob for acting thoughtlessly because > of their rage. They had no more way of foreseeing such tragic consequences > any more than Xena did. I don't know which is easier to recover from; intoxication or blind hatred. I don't excuse the mob at all. They were stone-cold sober and thoroughly aware of their actions, even though they couldn't know what the results of their actions would be. But then, I'm also extremely biased in favor of Xena. If she ran over a flock of nuns with a Humvee at high noon in the middle of downtown San Francisco (with Gabrielle giving her directions from a map), I'd still try to think of a way of justifying her actions. Maybe they had guns or something... > > I think Tapert &Co. gave us a painful, disappointing ending to a wonderful > > and outstanding series. I wish I'd never seen "A Friend In Need." > > > > Understandable, though I have the opposite view. > > -- Ife Time for me to return to lurkdom. > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:22:55 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena reference I just started watching the new NBC film Critical Assembly. A guy told the heroine, "I hear you're the Warrior Princess of the Physics Department." Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:50:46 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN 2 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > > I still maintain that it is everybody's perfectly legal provilege to get > drunk on occasion. Just as it's everyone's perfectly legal privilege to get > tired, or sick on occasion. Nobody can be or is expected to be 100% all the > time. Xena had no particular reason to expect to be attacked by a mob, > therefore I don't blame her in the slightest for getting drunk on that > occasion. > > cr Perhaps everyone has the right to get drunk but you are responsible for what you do when drunk. Diminished capacity is not a defense (and one that Xena would not use). We just had a case in Texas where a lady got drunk and stoned hit some poor guy and drove home with him still on the hood of her car. He defense was she was really stoned and she was really sorry she did it (she apologized to the guy as he was dying on her car hood). I presume she could have also argued the guy should have looked both ways before he crossed the street but her lawyer did not have enough nerve for that argument. Nevertheless The jury found her guilty of murder and sent her to prison for 50 years. Xena had an excuse for getting drunk but there was at least one good reason she should have at least delayed her binge - she made a promise to Akemi to take her ashes to the shrine. Given the state stae she was in it was probable she would have fallen flat on her face before she even got to the shrine. No Xena showed remarkably poor judgement and she bears responsibilty fro what she did when drunk. But I think we are now entering the area of agreeing to disagree. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:56:42 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Old Xena Mentions I happened to be thumbing through the July 2001 Expose with a full cover of Xena in her not-so-full-cover "Friend in Need" outfit. There's an article on "The Lost World" TV show where Jennifer O'Dell (the jungle girl) says, "When John Landis ... came into the project, he said, 'Well, let's put in a girl character who would run around in not very much, but be able to defend herself.' We're in that age of Xena, and the women in those kinds of shows are kick-butt characters, which the fans are loving." In the "Fanlog" column, there's mention of a site that offers a comic-book "four-color Xena Adventure." I haven't checked it out, so can't promise it's still up. It's at www.eskimo.com/~tegan/xena/ My apologies if this has been posted before. - - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:56:39 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 In a message dated 7/12/2003 1:00:41 AM Central Daylight Time, bloodyvisigoths@netzero.net writes: > >I don't happen to think grief and being drunk absolve her from the the > >potential or actual consequences of walking down the street in that state. > No doubt > >she had no thought about encountering others, but that's the problem with > >drowning one's sorrows -- it reduces the capacity to think. Fortunately > Xena > >didn't have access to a car. > > True enough, I grudgingly admit. >> Yeah, our girl certainly had her warts, so to speak. To keep that in perspective, I would picture her in modern times in one of those tank-like sports vehicles, brandishing a semi-automatic weapon. Imagine if Evil Xena had found out about the gun powder that Reformed Xena blew up ("Back in the Bottle"?). Add that to the massive destructiveness of her fire-breathing and she might've wiped out all of of Japa, not just Higuchi. <<> But then, I'm also extremely biased in favor of > Xena. If she ran over a flock of nuns with a Humvee at high noon in the > middle of downtown San Francisco (with Gabrielle giving her directions from > a map), I'd still try to think of a way of justifying her actions. Maybe > they had guns or something... LOL! So much for my scenario above. At least you're honest. Our girl was charismatic, no matter how bad TPTB made her. That's Lucy's fault, because she made Xena so human and sympathetic. I really had to work at seeing Xena "objectively," because I love the philosophical discussions that resulted from her flaws. Even then, like you, I found myself rationalizing her behavior beyond what I would have for other conflicted characters. As I said, I wasn't convinced of her singular guilt in AFIN either, despite seeing her complicity in the outcome. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:56:41 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 In a message dated 7/11/2003 11:42:33 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Umm, Xena was entitled to defend herself in whatever manner was available > to > her in the circumstances. In fact, had she been stone cold sober, could > she > or would she have done any different? I doubt it. >> She might've noticed folks trailing her in a less than welcoming manner. She might not've gone walking about without her weapons, since she usually prepared for the unexpected even in familiar surroundings. She might've decided on honoring Akemi's ashes at another time in a more sneaky manner. However, I think you're right -- that she would've chosen to exert her will no matter what, with little regard for local customs or hesitation to attack villagers. And that's one of the things that made her different, more dangerous than Reformed Xena -- her unwillingness or inability to control her impulses even when sober or to exercise vigilance that might minimize uncontrollable situations. I believe she grieved her own complicity (rooted in her initial greed) in Akemi's death, that she immersed herself in it to the point where she didn't even consider kicking those clogs off and running/leaping to safety to buy herself time to come up with another alternative. Reformed Xena would've tried to do that. Even when the Furies drove her insane, she recognized that she was herself a lethal weapon that she had responsibility for using appropriately regardless of the situation. Is that fair? It was to Xena. It was the price she put on herself for allowing such a weapon to exist only because she'd committed to putting it to good use. Evil Xena didn't have that safety mechanism, but I can't absolve her of her responsibility because of that. I can't judge her less complicit than someone else who comes into town to snatch a fortune, becomes grief-stricken because she kills her accomplice, decides to assuage her guilt by stumbling down the street like a madwoman, and stirs the outrage of townfolk who know only that this stranger has attacked a prominent family, seems intent on dishonoring their traditions and doesn't seem like the kind of person who means well. I don't excuse the mob either, but I don't see that they provoked what happened any more than Xena did. > Let's face it if Xena had been sober she > >would have easily defeated the mob - they weren't warriors in any sense of > >the word - and Akemi would have made it to her family's shrine. As I see > >it Xena indulged in an orgy of self-pity and killed a lot people when it > >got out of hand. What is more I think Xena herself understood that and > >that was why she took responsibility for the innocents. > > > >CherylA > > I still maintain that it is everybody's perfectly legal provilege to get > drunk on occasion. Just as it's everyone's perfectly legal privilege to > get > tired, or sick on occasion. Nobody can be or is expected to be 100% all > the > time. Xena had no particular reason to expect to be attacked by a mob, > therefore I don't blame her in the slightest for getting drunk on that > occasion. > I'm with Cheryl on this one. First, we're not talking about someone's legal privilege to drink themselves into oblivion and a hangover. What we're talking about is the distinct possibility that something bad can happen when they're in the company of other people or take their drunkenness outside. No doubt a lot of people get drunk with no thought that they'll get into a fight, wake up the neighborhood, or run someone down if they decide to drive. But don't tell their victims that's not to be expected. Don't expect their victims to care if maybe that was the first time. Same goes for someone who knowingly spreads a communicable disease or flies a passenger plane on too little sleep. Second, we can't excuse imperfections in Xena that we wouldn't excuse in someone else, regardless of "rights" or the realities of the human condition. "Sorry about your wife, cr, but there were extenuating circumstances. Up until now, Sam had never done this before. We're all human, you know. We take our chances whenever we get up in the morning. Let's just say your wife was in the wrong place at the wrong time and that no one is really responsible." Translation: "It's not Sam's fault if he didn't act responsibly and your wife got hurt." Third, Xena was a loaded gun. She knew it. We knew it. It's what made her the tragic hero whose greatest enemy was herself. The stakes were high and could be fatal at any given moment. I hold her to the same standard of responsibility I do anyone who handles a firearm -- a perfect 100% in making sure it's stored, carried and used safely, certainly never when the bearer is drunk. Evil Xena didn't care about that. Reformed Xena did. Both of them made mistakes for which the latter accepted responsibility. Why else would we Xena fans even think of forgiving Reformed Xena's mistakes or calling her a hero, while others consider both her and Evil Xena criminals? Again, I'm not arguing that the situation we got in AFIN was plausible or that the townfolk were blameless. I simply don't see how we can give Xena credit for her extraordinary lethalness on her good days, then ignore that superiority when she misfires and say, "Oh, she wasn't any worse than us toy pistols on a bad day." - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #197 **************************************