From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #193 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, July 9 2003 Volume 03 : Number 193 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena's Death [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena's Death [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena's Death On Tuesday 08 July 2003 11:15, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > Okay, I'd like to reopen what was a pretty hot topic at one point. I > > believe you (like myself) are not among those who objected to Xena's > > dying for any reason. Did you feel the reason we got was "important and > > genuine"? If not exactly what you had in mind, what would have been the > > "right" circumtances to see your favorite TV hero die? What would have > > been "reasonable"? > > > > -- Ife > > Was the reason important enough. I would say yes. Saving any human being > from eternal suffering would be a noble cause. I really don't believe > either Gabrielle or Xena could have lived with themselves knowing they > could have saved these souls and refused to do it. The major problem was > how the need for Xena's sacrifice was introduced - it caught people off > guard. Agreed there. Though I guess, the degree of 'foundation' that it required probably varied according to how readily people accepted Xena's death. That is to say, I felt Xena's death was terribly sad, but in keeping with the series, so the rather unexpected 'reason' didn't bother me too much. Had I really disliked the idea of Xena staying dead, I might be far more critical of the sudden-ness of the 'stay-dead' rule. > Now there were plenty of people who didn't like the idea that Xena > sacrificed herself for strangers. They might have been perfectly content > if she sacrificed herself for Gabrielle. I wouldn't've. I woulda been saying "Oh no, not _again_". Okay, I know it would have been in character, but it would have been just so predictable. Sorry 'bout that, just call me 'evil' :) > That would have not demonstrated > Xena's reformation through a committment to the greater good. Xena always > was very committed to her family and friends - in fact you could say she > always was willing to sacrifice for them. She may have fought for > strangers but I don't think she ever had a lot of empathy for them unless > she had a personal fondness for them. As the series went on Xena began to > show a greater sympathy of others - you see her coming to understand > other's points of view. I think a major turning point in her spiritual > growth is the redemption of Callisto. Callisto generated a lot of guilt in > Xena but I don't think she ever had a lot of sympathy for her. When Xena > became an angel she suddenly understood Callisto's suffering and was moved > to end it - not through death but by giving her a new life. After that > Xena tried harder to understand the "evil" people she meet. She understood > that the evil sister in Purity felt betrayed my her mother, she understood > that Grindle's curse was her hatred of Xena and forgiveness was the key to > releasing her, and she knew that Belach did an evil act but she also > undertood that his actions were prompted by his intense desire to a good > father. Her growth allowed her to save a lot of the villians she met after > Fallen Angel. So as her understanding of the human condition grew so did > her empathy. Xena was finally redeemed because she understood the worth of > those strangers and acted to protect them as she would her own family. It > is what we expect of heroes - that's why we honor firemen and policemen > because everyday they put themselves on the line for strangers - strangers > who may not deserve their heroism but who get it anyway. > > Cheryl A I do like the point about Callisto, there. Though I didn't care for FA much, that scene with Xena rescuing Callisto was magic. OTOH, Belach certainly went totally over the top, whatever his reasons. I think Xena was being way too forgiving there. But I like your discourse - very nicely put. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:14:56 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 On Tuesday 08 July 2003 14:38, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > What was 'reasonable'? 40,000 souls - yes, in my view. The only > > nitpick > > might be, that the foundations for the 'stay-dead rule' weren't very well > > laid. >> > > "Reasonable" because of the numbers? I take it that you're overlooking the > role played by those who attacked Xena for trying to bury Akemi's ashes? No, I'm not. In fact 39,900 of them played no part in attacking Xena anyway. I didn't mean to suggest that 40,000 souls were *necessary*, in fact they were way more than sufficient. I don't want to make this into a shades-of-grey numbers game, but 400 souls would have been more than enough IMO. Maybe 40, or even 4, though to really carry credibility or a feeling of 'rightness' about Xena's sacrifice, those four would have had to be a little bit 'special' - they would have had to have personalities - we would have had to have been introduced to them, so to speak. > > Suppose it had been cut down to just one person. And, um, let's say it > > was > > > > someone we all agree is a good person. >> > > Are you saying that saving a good person is more heroic than saving evil, > questionable or unknown people, or just more "reasonable"? What I'm saying is that it would seem more justifiable or reasonable to *us*. It seems more 'worth' it. Just like war heroes - no family likes to think their son died fighting on the *wrong* side, or for some totally futile reason. > First, > Say, Ephiny. And suppose Ephiny's > just been brought back to life. > And > > > suppose that Xena knows, if she comes > > back to life, Ephiny will immediately die again. Should Xena stay dead? > > I think yes. Put it another way, if the price of Xena's revival was > > killing > > Ephiny, could Xena live with herself afterwards?>> > > I personally wouldn't find that to be any more "reasonable," as the outcome > would be the same as we got -- Xena dead. See, the whole staying dead part > is much more problematic than sacrificing one's life in the first place. > It requires some mystical explanation that makes sense only to whomever > came up with reason -- e.g., a god or some cultural group. Now, maybe it > could work if it applied to anyone in that situation, but then Gabs or > anybody else could make that choice. You'd lose the symmetry of Xena's > personal responsibility for what happened. Hmmm. I think you're bringing 'blame' back into it. I agree, a lot of people instinctively feel it's 'fairer' if Xena died because of something wrong that she had done. And in fact, she did, though there is of course much debate about how far her liability extended. To _me_ (and this is my own personal view), I just think it had to be a good reason. And that Xena staying dead did sufficient good to somebody - that would have been enough reason, without any prior wrongdoing on her part. That may not have been 'fair', but then many things in XWP weren't fair. What happened to Gabby, and Solan and Xena, because of Dahak's appearance in The Deliverer wasn't 'fair'. Neither Gabby nor Xena had ever done anything to deserve that lot. Of course, Xena had done plenty of bad things in the past, and not paid fully for them; so maybe the fact that she arguably overpaid for Higuchi on this occasion balances it up. Swings and roundabouts. (rest snipped since I agree with it) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:22:41 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena's Death In a message dated 7/8/2003 5:18:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I think a major turning point in her spiritual > >growth is the redemption of Callisto. Callisto generated a lot of guilt in > >Xena but I don't think she ever had a lot of sympathy for her. When Xena > >became an angel she suddenly understood Callisto's suffering and was moved > >to end it - not through death but by giving her a new life. After that > >Xena tried harder to understand the "evil" people she meet. She understood > >that the evil sister in Purity felt betrayed my her mother, she understood > >that Grindle's curse was her hatred of Xena and forgiveness was the key to > >releasing her, and she knew that Belach did an evil act but she also > >undertood that his actions were prompted by his intense desire to a good > >father. Her growth allowed her to save a lot of the villians she met after > >Fallen Angel. So as her understanding of the human condition grew so did > >her empathy. Xena was finally redeemed because she understood the worth of > >those strangers and acted to protect them as she would her own family. It > >is what we expect of heroes - that's why we honor firemen and policemen > >because everyday they put themselves on the line for strangers - strangers > >who may not deserve their heroism but who get it anyway. > > > >Cheryl A > > I do like the point about Callisto, there. Though I didn't care for FA > much, that scene with Xena rescuing Callisto was magic. << Yes indeed. What I loved was that -- even tho this was a "purified" Xena -- it wasn't the "pure" Xena we got in Chakram. This was Xena quite clear about her past, but with a greater sense of empathy for one of her victims. She "touched" the pain in a way she hadn't before. I think Lucy did an especially wonderful job conveying that this was anguish in the Xena we knew, not some cleansed Xena with no appreciation of her personal responsibility for the pain she felt in Callisto or her own need to do something about it. > > But I like your discourse - very nicely put. > Me too. Don't know if that evolution was intentional on TPTB's part, but I do see what Cheryl is saying and feel it adds another dimension to those eps she mentioned. I'd seen "Angels" as almost an end in itself, with the purification ritual and saving Callisto as not having much impact on Xena's basic quest. But I wasn't looking at how that experience might have sensitized her -- given her quest more meaning, depth and opportunity to be more forgiving. Bravo! - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:22:38 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 In a message dated 7/8/2003 5:18:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >Are you saying that saving a good person is more heroic than saving evil, > >questionable or unknown people, or just more "reasonable"? > > What I'm saying is that it would seem more justifiable or reasonable to > *us*. > It seems more 'worth' it. >> Okay, we're speaking from different perspectives. I'm thinking what Xena would consider reasonable and taking my cues from that, regardless of what might be justifiable to me in killing her off. Keeps me from hurting my brain more. > >See, the whole staying dead part > >is much more problematic than sacrificing one's life in the first place. > >It requires some mystical explanation that makes sense only to whomever > >came up with reason -- e.g., a god or some cultural group. Now, maybe it > >could work if it applied to anyone in that situation, but then Gabs or > >anybody else could make that choice. You'd lose the symmetry of Xena's > >personal responsibility for what happened. > > Hmmm. I think you're bringing 'blame' back into it. I agree, a lot of > people instinctively feel it's 'fairer' if Xena died because of something > wrong that she had done. And in fact, she did, though there is of course > much debate about how far her liability extended. > > To _me_ (and this is my own personal view), I just think it had to be a good > > reason. And that Xena staying dead did sufficient good to somebody - that > would have been enough reason, without any prior wrongdoing on her part. > That may not have been 'fair', but then many things in XWP weren't fair. >> Yes, I didn't really care about the reason or whether it involved "blame." However, I did feel the responsibility part added another dramatic, moral dimension for us to beat to death. :-) - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:51:45 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 > From: IfeRae@aol.com > > > "Reasonable" because of the numbers? I take it that you're overlooking the > role played by those who attacked Xena for trying to bury Akemi's ashes? > I have always found it interesting how so many people have used this fact to excuse Xena's actions. They are basically saying that a few dozen people whacking Xena with brooms justifies Xena's actions. That because they were mean to Xena they had every right to expect to have their wives, their children, their friends be burned in their beds. Not only that they also may be petty to think their deaths deserved somekind of justice. Why couldn't they just forget the whole thing and let by gones be by gones. In today's world we would still take a dim view of people setting fire to a neighborhood during a street brawl. Lets say I'm walking down the street and I am attacked by a couple of thieves. I just happen to have a feww molitov coctails on hand and I start chucking them at people. In the process a few houses catch fire - then it spreads and suddenly people are dead and homeless. I guarentee you I am in store for a very long prison term. Xena doesn't excuse her actions I don't see why we should. In the same vein people still say Akemi is responsible. If she hadn't used Xena to get Japa to kill her father then none of this would have happened. That is certainy true. However Akemi didn't seek Xena out. Xena came looking for Akemi and not because she wanted rescue some poor Japanese maiden. Xena was looking for money and power. If Akemi used Xena, Xena was certainly using Akemi. If Xena had minded her own business then Akemi wouldn't have gotten to Japa or at least Xena wouldn't have wound up in Japa and Haguchi wouldn't have burned. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #193 **************************************