From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, July 8 2003 Volume 03 : Number 192 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Xena's Death ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:38:59 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 On Sunday 06 July 2003 20:02, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Sat, 5 Jul 2003, cr wrote: > > On Saturday 05 July 2003 10:40, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > --Apparently I'm "out of the loop" on this one (amongst other things ;) > > > ). ;( Was Akemi widely disliked for some reason?? > > > > You really are out of the loop, aren't you? ;) > > > > Almost everyone who hated the ending because Xena died, or because it > > 'split up' the subtext, seemed to blame it on Akemi. > > --;=) *Well*.....I don't "stalk" the lists like you do, m'dear! ;P LOL I don't exactly stalk the lists. ('Oooh, there's another list, let's go and shoot it! :) But I do lurk on quite a number of them. > And if a list widely didn't like a character because of not liking the > ending or because that character apparently split up the "subtext", then > I'd probably not be interested in that list. ;P There was a rash of Akemi-hating on almost every list, actually. I don't mean the majority necessarily agreed, but certainly a large number of fans were very outspoken about it. Somewhat controlled on chakram, by the moderation of the list owner. Around Season 5, I recall, there was a rash of anti-Joxer feeling because he was 'stalking' Gabby and (allegedly) put there to interfere with the subtext. These things come and go. > > You'd be in a very small minority, then, I think, whose opinions of Akemi > > weren't flavoured by circumstances. > > --So what else is new?? ;=) I'm a *Xena*fan, remember?!? Since when did > we hold "majority" opinions?? ;) Yeah, if I fond myself in the majority I start to wonder what's going wrong ;) > > > --Didn't they have language coaches on-set?? Why wasn't that caught by > > > the Sound Editor or by RT?? > > > > I don't know. It wasn't the language, it was the accent. Maybe it > > slipped through, maybe they couldn't get the guy back for ADR, maybe it > > didn't seem so obvious at the time. > > --By "language" I meant "dialect/accent"; besides, many dialects are > almost different languages in themselves. ;) > > And if they were monitoring for an American accent, they *really* missed > that one! ;P > > --Jackie Yes, indeed. But I don't think it was an Oriental accent, either. It was broad Australian. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:15:53 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena's Death > Okay, I'd like to reopen what was a pretty hot topic at one point. I > believe you (like myself) are not among those who objected to Xena's dying > for any reason. Did you feel the reason we got was "important and genuine"? > If not exactly what you had in mind, what would have been the "right" > circumtances to see your favorite TV hero die? What would have been > "reasonable"? > > -- Ife Was the reason important enough. I would say yes. Saving any human being from eternal suffering would be a noble cause. I really don't believe either Gabrielle or Xena could have lived with themselves knowing they could have saved these souls and refused to do it. The major problem was how the need for Xena's sacrifice was introduced - it caught people off guard. Now there were plenty of people who didn't like the idea that Xena sacrificed herself for strangers. They might have been perfectly content if she sacrificed herself for Gabrielle. That would have not demonstrated Xena's reformation through a committment to the greater good. Xena always was very committed to her family and friends - in fact you could say she always was willing to sacrifice for them. She may have fought for strangers but I don't think she ever had a lot of empathy for them unless she had a personal fondness for them. As the series went on Xena began to show a greater sympathy of others - you see her coming to understand other's points of view. I think a major turning point in her spiritual growth is the redemption of Callisto. Callisto generated a lot of guilt in Xena but I don't think she ever had a lot of sympathy for her. When Xena became an angel she suddenly understood Callisto's suffering and was moved to end it - not through death but by giving her a new life. After that Xena tried harder to understand the "evil" people she meet. She understood that the evil sister in Purity felt betrayed my her mother, she understood that Grindle's curse was her hatred of Xena and forgiveness was the key to releasing her, and she knew that Belach did an evil act but she also undertood that his actions were prompted by his intense desire to a good father. Her growth allowed her to save a lot of the villians she met after Fallen Angel. So as her understanding of the human condition grew so did her empathy. Xena was finally redeemed because she understood the worth of those strangers and acted to protect them as she would her own family. It is what we expect of heroes - that's why we honor firemen and policemen because everyday they put themselves on the line for strangers - strangers who may not deserve their heroism but who get it anyway. Cheryl A CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:38:34 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 In a message dated 7/5/2003 9:50:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > What was 'reasonable'? 40,000 souls - yes, in my view. The only nitpick > > might be, that the foundations for the 'stay-dead rule' weren't very well > laid. >> "Reasonable" because of the numbers? I take it that you're overlooking the role played by those who attacked Xena for trying to bury Akemi's ashes? > > Suppose it had been cut down to just one person. And, um, let's say it was > > someone we all agree is a good person. >> Are you saying that saving a good person is more heroic than saving evil, questionable or unknown people, or just more "reasonable"? First, Say, Ephiny. And suppose Ephiny's > just been brought back to life. And > suppose that Xena knows, if she comes > back to life, Ephiny will immediately die again. Should Xena stay dead? > I think yes. Put it another way, if the price of Xena's revival was > killing > Ephiny, could Xena live with herself afterwards?>> I personally wouldn't find that to be any more "reasonable," as the outcome would be the same as we got -- Xena dead. See, the whole staying dead part is much more problematic than sacrificing one's life in the first place. It requires some mystical explanation that makes sense only to whomever came up with reason -- e.g., a god or some cultural group. Now, maybe it could work if it applied to anyone in that situation, but then Gabs or anybody else could make that choice. You'd lose the symmetry of Xena's personal responsibility for what happened. In TPTB's equation, Xena was the one who had to die, not just in some routine physical sacrifice, but in a way that put her soul and honor on the line, in which she had a chance to choose life at the expense of others or death at the expense of her chance to live on. Once the decision was made to kill her off (supposedly "for good" in both senses of that expression), I don't think the situation really mattered except for the dramatic possibilities. Obviously it should involve selflessness and something epic (as opposed to her falling to her death because she didn't feel in the mood for going around rather than up a steep incline). > > What would have been the 'right' circumstances? In generalities, I think > FIN got it pretty well - Xena goes out in a massive battle, saving a town, > and defeating a very formidable and evil enemy, Yodoshi.>> Yes, that too. > > I imagined, before the end of the series, that it might have been a mighty > battle to prevent some new neo-Dahak from taking over Olympus, that Xena > might have been fighting alongside Ares and Aphrodite, and that Xena might > have - say - caused a volcanic explosion like Thera or Krakatau that took > out > the whole enemy camp and herself with it. That would have been good > circumstances. (Oops. Fanfic alert! :)>> LOL! Well, I was tired of all that god stuff, though in a sense Yodoshi had become the local Dahak and might've developed power and appetite that affected other lands. However, as I said, I don't think TPTB could've done much better than it did, in terms of coming up with something "reasonable" for the outcome in mind. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #192 **************************************