From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #190 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, July 6 2003 Volume 03 : Number 190 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 2 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 18:32:51 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 On Saturday 05 July 2003 07:44, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > > So, umm, which katana was which? > > > > I'm a bit lost here. There were two katanas - one, the sacred katana > > that > > Xena 'won' in the forge, that she beheaded Akemi with, and that > > (presumably) > > turned up in the teahouse (did Akemi put it there?) and Kenji took on his > > mission to fetch Xena, that she used in the battle, and that evaporated > > and > > reappeared in the teahouse when Xena died. Was this the one that Xena > > gave > > Gabby? It had a red hilt. Gabby took it to Mt Fuji and Xena used it > > to fight and kill Yodoshi. > > > > Then, there was Harukata's katana, last seen stuck through Yodoshi when > > he took off through the roof of the teahouse. It had a black hilt. > > Presumably it rematerialized at Mt Fuji when Yodoshi did. Akemi tried > > to kill Yodoshi with it, but he repossesed it, and used it in the final > > fight against Xena. > > Well I'm a bit confused over the katana's too. I didn't realize that until > I started the synopsis because I kept losing track of the katana's. Xena > carried a red one in her battle with Morimoto (at least she has red one in > my poster). Gabrielle carried that one to get Xena's body back (just > checked the DVD). She then gave it back to Xena on Mt Fuji. Yes, that's the one. I was confused about the katanas too until I worked it out in that last post of mine. > > I thought Xena's head looked quite >handsome, if a little bit tired. > > Like she'd had a hard night the night >before. ;) > > I was surprsied when I head the head was actually was Lucy's head. She had > to dress up in a green suit and be photographed against a back drop for the > effect. I guess I assumed it was a wax head like something out of a wax > museum. When they had the prop auction I kept expecting it to show up. No, the plate did though. I guess it was easier and quicker for Lucy to 'model' her head on screen than to have one made. Wax heads take a huge amount of work. The other way it's done, for sci-fi shows etc, is to take a 'cast' of the actor's face, but then again, that is a slow and tiring process and it was doubtless quicker and easier for Lucy just to act the part. > > The trap was a disaster, but not a complete failure - since Yodoshi is > > seriously weakened by it. Xena might never have caught him otherwise. > > Well nothing Xena does is a complete disaster! > > > All this bird stuff was omitted from the TV version. I read it in the > > draft > > script (the 'Yellow' script) and thought it sounded absurd. But, on the > > DVD, it looks convincing. > > Yeah I liked it. I know you don't read fan fiction but I wonder if anyone > ever used the bird thing in a post-FIN story. You know Gabrielle and her > owl and her pot waundering around the world. Hmmmm. Nope, the owl flew off on his bird business as soon as Xena had finished making use of him. Her. It. Whatever.... > > It's an Indian Mynah bird. An import to New Zealand but very > > widespread. You can never run them over, they have excellent judgement > > where cars are concerned. Not that it's relevant... > > Should I be placing an emergency call to the Audubon Society? Unlikely. So far as I know mynahs are not endangered in India. If they became extinct here all the greenies would doubtless be pleased, since mynahs are aggressive birds and probably very hard on the native bird population. > > Akemi: There's something I have to tell you... > > [cut to hawk flying] > > [cut back to Xena, looking serious] > > > > That was just a little bit unsubtle, the way it was done. > > I think the scene was necessary but it wasn't Rob's finest moment as a > director. It was just a tad awkward. Well, the scene itself was OK, just the cut to obscure what Akemi was saying was rather obviously contrived. There was no immediate link between what Akemi was saying and Yodoshi's hawk. Other cuts like, say, when Xena was mentioning teaching Akemi the pinch and Gabby interrupted, were better done - though I was disconcerted at that interruption, there was an obvious reason for it. > I agree Xena's guilt or innocence isn't the point at all. Suddenly Xena is > put in the position of having the responsibilty of saving these people and > does what she sees as her duty. That is the her redemption - not that she > makes right her past sin but that she lays down her life for strangers. Yes, exactly. > > Gabrielle's actions are equally heroic regardless of what Xena > > subsequently > > decides. This was one ep where Gabby did good. > > Gabrielle will be so pleased to hear this. I'll try not to make a habit of it ;) > > As I mentioned, Xena makes two attempts to tell Gabrielle Something > > Serious > > (you can tell by her tone), so it wasn't entirely out of left field. > > I agree you knew something was ups but the actual rules of the Japanese > underworld suddenly being introduced was sudden. Agreed. I'm trying to figure if there was any way to have done it better. To have made it equally surprising, but something that we 'knew' all along. There were very loose parallels - the fact that Akemi's family could rest in peace only after Yodoshi, their killer, was killed. Or the fact that Akemi (who was totally blameless IMO) had to commit seppuku (?) after she killed her father. But nothing specific. (Incidentally, Akemi's situation was a little like Orestes as recounted in The Furies - he had to kill his mother, to avenge his father, but then of course he was punished for killing his father.) > > I think your suggestion about Harukata is probably the best one. He > > could > > 'speed the souls on their way' - but, presumably, not when he was a ghost > > himself. (Maybe that's another reason why he couldn't just kill himself > > in > > order to get to Yodoshi. It seems that all his powers lapsed when he > > died). > > > So, when he died, that left it all up to Xena. > > Yes he couldn't just kill himself because once he was dead he got eaten > too. So he needed assistance from a shost Yodoshi wouldn't eat. I guess > they figured Yodoshi just couldn't resist making Xena on of his geishas. > Afterall she is a beautiful woman and she certainly would be a great > enticement to men plus the sheer sadistic joy he got out of thinking he > could use Xena to his own purposes. Hmm, yes, I think we've got this one just about explained. :) > > My first reaction was 'No way could Gabrielle replace Xena'. But you've > > *almost* persuaded me. I'm just too easy ;) > > Well I agree that no one can "replace" Xena. I just read Missy Good's > interview in Chakram and she said she didn't think Gabby could be a warrior > because she lacks the sheer loveof battle. She could be a fighter but not > a warrior. I think actual that is what Gabrielle will be - a champion of > the greater good. She will never be the warrior Xena was but she could use > Xena's example and what she learned from her to use own natural abilities > to be that champion. I think that Xena would probably be disappointed if > Gabrielle did just take up where Xena left off. I think Xena wanted more > for Gabrielle than just to be a warrior. Yes, good point. I haven't seen Missy's interview yet. But she always makes sense. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 02:40:19 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 2 In a message dated 7/4/2003 1:11:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > I would love to see the outtakes with ROC relentless trying to kiss Lucy > while Lucy just as relentless trying to put distance between them Now it > would seem that since Lucy lives with Rob he might have let her in on the > kiss thing and not make her guess what he wanted. Perhaps they don't > discuss work at home. >> That's what Lucy says -- that they didn't bring work home with them. Given how differently they sometimes saw something, I don't think she was exaggerating. > > > >>> Gabrielle has had enough. > >>She throws the chakram and kills the general. >> > > > >Do we know for sure that she killed him? > > Yes Rob said so - this howver surprised ROC a bit.>> Heh. I have to go with ROC on that, just like I go on what Lucy thinks -- 'cause how they played it is what I believe. From ROC's performance, I didn't think she'd killed him. <<> I just really like that pot. My favorite > post FIN cartoon was Gabby riding Argo with the pot in front of her yelling > whee. I have to think of that pot as a character - it just seems so Xena - > dark but with lovly lines.>> As Xena would say -- "Mmm." > > When I first saw the episode I assumed Gabrielle would dump the ashes and I > thought 'jeeze we're going to do the same old resurrection plotline" Then > she is stopped and I was shocked. Rob always said he regreated that death > almost became meaningless in the Xenaverse he certain rectified that in this > epsiode.>> Boy, did he ever! > >My own is rather simple -- Papa > >Yodoshi made up the avenged thing (which nobody else seemed to know about) > to > >discourage Xena. Even if she managed to defeat him, he'd still have his > revenge > >on her postghostumously. He derisively whispered this in Akemi's ear, > knowing > >she'd probably warn Xena. Since Akemi was an illusion under his control, > she > >bought it. ta daa. > > Sorry that doesn't fly for me simply because it means Xena's sacrifice is > meaningless. It was all a trick and Xena emerges not as a hero but as a > fool.>> Some see Xena as a fool no matter what the reason. To me, heroes don't worry about what others might see as stupid. They don't wait to see if someone else will jump in first or let someone die as they weigh the pros and cons or make judgments about whether the threat is legitimate or the potential victim is worthy of saving. Even in the version we saw, Xena might well have questioned where Akemi got the info and whether it was true. She didn't think it was worth possibly jeopardizing those souls by waiting around to find out. Whether something is a trick or not does not to me affect Xena's compassion or heroism. Well get whoever has the invitation list to invite them over at once.>> Already workin' on it. Then > > I can start again. >> Excellent! BTW you tell me how to join the Flawless list they> > actually discuss Xena and not a 110 other things. Um, say again? Actually, the list is supposed to be about all things Lucy, but it's often hard to do that without getting into ep discussions. It very seldom strays from Lucy/Xena. You can write to BJFitzpat@aol.com for info on Flawless. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 02:40:23 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 In a message dated 7/4/2003 2:49:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > We're seeing the very last episode ever of Xena. It *should* be sad, and > painful, and poignant. I can only answer for myself, but a 'happy' ending > would have felt just as sad, as all partings are, but not nearly so moving.>> > Yes! If I was going to be sad anyway, I wanted it to be a knock my socks off sad, worthy of the deep feelings I had for the show. > I'd suffered from spoiler leakage, I knew Xena died in battle. But like > you > lfe, I didn't know for sure if she stayed dead (though I had a shrewd > suspicion). Still, that small lingering doubt was enough to let me watch > the episode, hoping that Xena would come back to life. And when she > didn't? > Well, that was fine with me, too, even though I watched it on a Saturday and > > did nothing but wander about in a daze all the rest of the weekend. >> Exactly how I felt. I think RT did what he had to for those of us who wanted the suspense. > > Hmm, that logically makes sense, but I can't accept it. It would mean that > > Xena stayed dead quite unnecessarily simply because Akemi and Xena were both > > fooled. And while I delight in irony and I'm a connoisseur of cock-ups, I > just can't accept Xena's death as a result of that.>> See my response to Cheryl. If it was "necessary" for Xena to die, it didn't matter that much to me where the reason fell on the " how necessary" scale. Dead was dead. > > I feel very sorry for Michelle that her character was so badly received by > the fans. Probably the best role she's had to date, maybe the best she'll > ever get (and in saying that I'm not denigrating Michelle, but roles that > good don't come around very often). Yet, Ebonie Smith, say, (M'Lila - who > I > like heaps) can be a guest at a con and be appreciated by all the fans. > And > Michelle probably can't - certainly not just after the series ended. Maybe > > in a year or two, she could. >> I can't imagine fans taking their hostility out on Ang at a con. I'd think they'd want to hear how she approached the role and dealt with being thrust in the middle of already established relationships. > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 20:06:41 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: FIN Part 2 On Saturday 05 July 2003 18:40, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: cande (?) wrote: > > BTW you tell me how to join the Flawless list they> > > actually discuss Xena and not a 110 other things. > > Um, say again? Actually, the list is supposed to be about all things > Lucy, but it's often hard to do that without getting into ep discussions. > It very seldom strays from Lucy/Xena. You can write to BJFitzpat@aol.com > for info on Flawless. > > -- Ife To amplify that - officially, Flawless is for discussing Lucy, *not* Xena as such and certainly not XWP episodes. So, how Lucy plays Xena is OK, but why 'Xena' does something is, strictly, off topic. Having said that, since the series has ended, those rules have been relaxed significantly and quite lengthy digressions into Xena seem to be acceptable. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:53:36 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 On Saturday 05 July 2003 10:40, Jackie M. Young wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 21:47:53 +1200, cr wrote: > >I feel very sorry for Michelle that her character was so badly received > >by the fans. Probably the best role she's had to date, maybe the best > > --Apparently I'm "out of the loop" on this one (amongst other things ;) ). > ;( Was Akemi widely disliked for some reason?? You really are out of the loop, aren't you? ;) Akemi was widely reviled, for (a) 'using' Xena to get to Yodoshi (b) causing Xena's death in the first place, due to circumstances - dying, asking Xena to bury her ("she should have known the villagers would object"), summoning Xena back to Japan to fight Yodoshi - as if this was all a diabolical master plan of Akemi's to destroy Xena (c) telling Xena she had to stay dead (d) allegedly wanting Xena to stay dead so she could be with Akemi, not with Gabrielle .... Almost everyone who hated the ending because Xena died, or because it 'split up' the subtext, seemed to blame it on Akemi. > I just thought she was an inconsistent, annoying side character, but > didn't *really* dislike her (*he!*); I'm one of the few of you who > _didn't_ like the way Ang portrayed her (_too_ sweet, _too_ innocent, and > she *mumbled* her words! ;P ), but I otherwise thought the actress and her > character were OK.....;=/ You'd be in a very small minority, then, I think, whose opinions of Akemi weren't flavoured by circumstances. > >Pity about Morimoto's accent when he finally appeared... that almost > >lost me. > > --Didn't they have language coaches on-set?? Why wasn't that caught by > the Sound Editor or by RT?? > > --Jackie I don't know. It wasn't the language, it was the accent. Maybe it slipped through, maybe they couldn't get the guy back for ADR, maybe it didn't seem so obvious at the time. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 20:18:38 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 On Saturday 05 July 2003 18:40, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/4/2003 2:49:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > We're seeing the very last episode ever of Xena. It *should* be sad, > > and painful, and poignant. I can only answer for myself, but a 'happy' > > ending would have felt just as sad, as all partings are, but not nearly > > so moving.>> > > Yes! If I was going to be sad anyway, I wanted it to be a knock my socks > off sad, worthy of the deep feelings I had for the show. > > > I'd suffered from spoiler leakage, I knew Xena died in battle. But like > > you > > lfe, I didn't know for sure if she stayed dead (though I had a shrewd > > suspicion). Still, that small lingering doubt was enough to let me > > watch the episode, hoping that Xena would come back to life. And when > > she didn't? > > Well, that was fine with me, too, even though I watched it on a Saturday > > and > > > > did nothing but wander about in a daze all the rest of the weekend. >> > > Exactly how I felt. I think RT did what he had to for those of us who > wanted the suspense. Umm, it wasn't the suspense, it was the aftershock. I watched it midday Saturday and it was the rest of the weekend after that that I was in a daze. :) > > Hmm, that logically makes sense, but I can't accept it. It would mean > > that > > > > Xena stayed dead quite unnecessarily simply because Akemi and Xena were > > both > > fooled. And while I delight in irony and I'm a connoisseur of cock-ups, > > I just can't accept Xena's death as a result of that.>> > > See my response to Cheryl. If it was "necessary" for Xena to die, it > didn't matter that much to me where the reason fell on the " how necessary" > scale. Dead was dead. There, I tend to agree with Cheryl. The reason should at least be important and genuine. Though, just four people (rather than 40,000) would have been sufficient in the right circumstances. > > I feel very sorry for Michelle that her character was so badly received > > by the fans. Probably the best role she's had to date, maybe the best > > she'll ever get (and in saying that I'm not denigrating Michelle, but > > roles that good don't come around very often). Yet, Ebonie Smith, say, > > (M'Lila - who I > > like heaps) can be a guest at a con and be appreciated by all the fans. > > And > > Michelle probably can't - certainly not just after the series ended. > > Maybe in a year or two, she could. >> > > I can't imagine fans taking their hostility out on Ang at a con. I'd think > they'd want to hear how she approached the role and dealt with being thrust > in the middle of already established relationships. > > -- Ife Having seen some of the posts on Whoosh, and heard of the bad behaviour of *some* of the fans at the first screening of FIN, and also that Ted Raimi was booed at one con, I'm afraid I'm sure that, right after FIN first screened, Michelle would have had a rough time at any con. Probably by now, that's subsided. Personally, I would love to hear how she approached the role, as you say. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 00:12:57 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Friend In Need Part 2 In a message dated 7/5/2003 1:14:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > >Exactly how I felt. I think RT did what he had to for those of us who > >wanted the suspense. > > Umm, it wasn't the suspense, it was the aftershock. I watched it midday > Saturday and it was the rest of the weekend after that that I was in a daze. > > :) >> Sorry, I added a bit to what you said. Yes, I felt the aftershock, but also the suspense of not knowing for sure how it would turn out -- which I think contributed to my aftershock. Frankly, I was prepared to have the ending "telegraphed" early on, so that I could keep preparing myself along the way. But I ended up on the usual roller coaster that didn't allow me that luxury and which has continued to affect me even now. Amazing. > >If it was "necessary" for Xena to die, it > >didn't matter that much to me where the reason fell on the " how necessary" > >scale. Dead was dead. > > There, I tend to agree with Cheryl. The reason should at least be > important > and genuine. Though, just four people (rather than 40,000) would have been > > sufficient in the right circumstances. > Okay, I'd like to reopen what was a pretty hot topic at one point. I believe you (like myself) are not among those who objected to Xena's dying for any reason. Did you feel the reason we got was "important and genuine"? If not exactly what you had in mind, what would have been the "right" circumtances to see your favorite TV hero die? What would have been "reasonable"? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #190 **************************************