From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #151 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, May 31 2003 Volume 03 : Number 151 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena reviews [Sojourner ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Strange [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide [cr ] [chakram-refugees] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5Bchakram-refugees=5D_X's_stunt_double_Zo=E B_Bell_doc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?umentary?= [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 06:57:24 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena reviews At 19:33 30/05/2003 -0400, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/30/03 3:06:34 AM Central Daylight Time, >fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > ><< > Argghhhhh!!! *%$#@^^^. The woman is so insufferably circuitous in her > > logic that I could scream! Oh, I just did. Sorry everyone (except KT). > > > No, no, not circuituous. I just keep hoping that if you hear the truth > often enough, it just MIGHT sink in. > > Ife, in my world if you look a person in the face and say, "I'm a better > person than you are" that is bragging. >> > >Nope. I've heard no evidence for this. I gave you alternative >interpretations. I gave you expression and tone of voice, context and >sequence. What did >I get? > >KT: She's bragging. >Ife: How did you get that? >KT: Because she essentially said, "I'm better than you." >Ife: What makes you say that? >KT: Because she's bragging. > >Circuitous. Just because you try to make it look like a "round killing >thing" doesn't mean it's not a "sham rock" that falls to the ground with a >plink. >Heh. > >-- Ife Hahahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! Welcome to the "dark side" of an argument with KT. I can tell you it is no less frustrating in person - even when I get her completely drunk. However - on this one, I completely agree with her. Even if I don't quite believe that "Thou shalt not say nice things about thyself" was mistakenly left off in favour of "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours ass" - I think Moses was trying to say "Thou shalt not make an ass of thyself". It struck me as waaaay out of character at the time and still does. Perhaps the "round argument" chould go: It's not the kind of thing Xena would say She never said anything like it again Gabby might have said it Gabby said things like that all the time Lucy and Renee got their scripts damp that day Director wasn't paying attention Writer was an idiot C'mon - pick me apart! Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:07:02 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram (random snippage) On Saturday 31 May 2003 9:19 am, S. Wilson wrote: > At 09:49 AM 5/31/2003 +1200, cr wrote: > >But a replica gun won't fire. A replica chacky, OTOH, if properly made, > >would have all the normal physical properties of the real chacky. > > How do you make a proper replica of the chakram? And how do you know it can > be done? How do you know a replica will behave as the original? Replica > firearms don't. Since we're still hanging on to the gun analogy. ;) Leaving aside any 'magical' properties, it's just a hunk of metal. And therefore, if you copy its dimensions reasonably accurately, in metal of similar density, the replica will handle similarly and you can practise throwing and catching it perfectly well. Just as people can learn to handle a sword using a blunt replica of similar weight for practice. > It's alot to assume, and I can't assume it. A replica gun won't work but a > replica chakram will - why? In the case of a gun, it depends what you mean by 'replica'. Some replicas do work, some are just plastic imitations. With a chacky, a wooden imitation wouldn't be much good, but a brass or steel one would be perfectly functional. It would feel and behave *exactly* the same as the real thing. Here I'm referring to the 'early' chacky, before it started to display (or acquire) its more magical abilities. I'm assuming that throwing and catching it were purely matters of manual skill - which my 'practice' theory fully accounts for. The apparent ability to mentally control it is a different matter - it's been discussed a lot - I like the idea that the chacky responded to the dark side of the thrower's thoughts and therefore Callisto could automatically control it. > Wouldn't it just be another dancy, mystical > chakram, not a replica, if it could do all the things that Xena's chakram > could? The gun analogy worked as far as saying that you had to practice > alot to be proficient, but that's about as far as I can carry it without > having some explanation from TPTB about the backstory of the chaky and > Callisto, which we never got. Well, the above is the best I can do and *I* think it explains it adequately well. :) > > But I just had a thought - the chacky that displayed most of the really > >magical powers was the yin-yang chacky. It could well be that, by fusing > >the light and dark chakrams in 'Chakram', the new yin-yang chacky gained > > far more powers than its predecessor. > > It had a predecessor? Blarg, I haven't watched the yin/yang chakram episode > in s00o long, or actually most of them. I should just turn in my Xena fan > ID card right now. :( By its predecessor I mean the original round chacky that Xena used all through the series right up till then. > I suppose, if we wanted to assume that Callisto made her own perfect > working replica of the chakram, that she could have stolen the 'light' > chakram and practiced with that. How, without getting fried? Easier just to get a copy made with the dimensions of the original. > > > It'd be easier (for me) to imagine Callisto chucking clay plates at > > > Theodorus from 100 meters than it is for me to imagine her having > > > someone craft a realistic chakram for practice - which we never see or > > > hear of. > > > >Why? > > Because it's easier to believe that than her making/having made a "replica" > chakram that works just like the original chakram but that we never see or > hear about. And in a way, a sillier visual. I repeat, why? We never heard *anything* of her career up to that point. She could have been doing anything. Doubtless she had swords made. Why not a chacky? > > We never got to see or hear any detail of *any* of Callisto's career > >before she first appeared, but it was implied IIRC that she had studied > > Xena and practiced to become her equal. It seems quite reasonable to > > assume that some chacky practice could have been included. > > I could assume that, yep. In fact, that's where my clay pigeons come in. Or > wooden pigeons. Or just pigeons. But no chakram. But *anybody* could make a chakram!!! Or at least, any decent weapon maker. Why not? > > > Just blam-o, she can catch Xena's chaky, no reason why. Other than the > > > mystical ones you guys are coming up with, I mean. *s* > > > > > > S. > > > >Well I just came up with a very good non-mystical reason why. But you > > don't like it. :) > > > >cr > > Never said I didn't like it... > > S. You don't seem to agree with it. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:32:01 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Saturday 31 May 2003 11:33 am, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > Are you implying that there is something about Caeser and Joxer that we > > haven't been told?! > > > > Ann > > No, just that they are all, visibly, not *exactly* the same as their > 'regular' counterparts. This is very evident in the case of Joxer, btw. > > It's alternate reality, and therefore the X-G relationship is not > necessarily > exactly the same as in the 'regular' world. > > cr >> > > cr, dear, methinks we have *got* to work on your sensitivity to "tongue in > cheek." > > -- Ife Yeah. I used to be much better at it. The trouble is two-fold - first, ya can't tell tone of voice over the Internet. And second, where I work, my sense of incredulity is constantly being so severely strained by the unbelievable corporate stupidity that goes on non-stop, that I find it hard to recognise subtlety when I see it any more. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 04:36:12 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Strange On Saturday 31 May 2003 11:33 am, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Obviously there must be some fanfic fan who has my address in their > address book and some variant of the Klez virus on their machine. > > > Not necessarily a fanfic fan. Some months ago I got bogus messages > supposedly from Sharon Delaney and Kym of Whoosh. The headers were written > in a way that didn't draw much suspicion, but there were attachments > involved. It's easy enough for someone on a list to get addys for ulterior > motives. > > -- Ife Well, these messages I got were 100-150K size, which implies most of that being attachments. I just deleted them straight off my ISP's mailserver without downloading. But that's typical of the Klez virus, which sends itself off to random addresses from the host's address book, with a faked 'from' address also taken at random from the host's address book, and a random file of 100K or so from the host's computer as an attachment. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 06:36:17 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Friday 30 May 2003 2:39 pm, Cheryl Ande wrote: > When Fates Collide > > > In the courtyard of Rome a very alive Caesar is ordering his minions to > feed the poor. Brutus announces that emissaries from Loa Mao the ruler of > Chin have arrived with a treaty. Things are looking pretty good in the > Roman Empire when suddenly there is a cry to open the palace gates. There > sits a dark figure on a horse - dressed in leather and a helmet. It rides > through the guards at break-neck speed and fires arrows from a bow. *Another* bow-and-arrow shot that misfired. Those arrows are moving so slowly they harly manage to get ahead of the horse. It looks utterly unconvincing. The other one is when Xena shoots the deer in Sin Trade.... you can see the bowstring twanging lazily afterwards. Really, the director should have re-shot both those moments, or even CGI'd the arrows in. I'm sure Lucy could have pulled a tighter bowstring than that. > The > arrows frame Brutus but Caesar stands unafraid before the dark horseman who > leaps off the horse and stands before Caesar. The figure reveals herself > as Xena and hails Caesar as "her emperor". Caesar acknowledges her as "his > empress" and everyone relaxes - obviously Xena often greets her husband > with arrows. Now surely Caesar should have been at least a little nervous about *that* custom. ;) > Caesar turns his attention to the Chinese ambassadors. For the audience > life in this new Roman Empire seems vastly improved from the way it was > before Caesar's edit. Caesar seems benevolent. Lao Mao is the rightful > ruler of Chin. Xena is the empress of Rome - happy in her marriage and an > important leader in her own right. The Chinese ambassadors present their > treaty when suddenly they are seized from behind and are lifted off the > ground. Alti, the high priestess of Rome, has them in her clutches, > literally, and is feeding on the men's' fears. We see flashes of their > past lives but something is odd here - the flashes are from The Debt, and > Back In The Bottle - this should not be since these things never happened. Now this didn't strike me as at all odd, at the time. But now you mention it, yes, it's quite 'wrong'. Very subtle on TPTB's part. > At the reception that evening, Xena and Gabrielle talk. Xena is fascinated > by this Greek playwright. She wants to know all about her. Where do her > ideas come from? Does really believe in a love worth dying for? > Gabrielle says the stories just seem to write themselves and she hopes that > such loves exists in the world. Xena's admiration for the playwright is > matched by Gabrielle's respect for Xena who is beloved by both the people > and the army. Caesar nervously watches the interaction between Xena and > Gabrielle and Alti misinterprets Caesar's reaction as jealously. But why would Caesar be nervous about Xena talking to some obscure Greek playwright? And further, not one who writes about freedom or democracy or politics or anything dangerous, but just sappy romance? Caesar in this timeline should know nothing of Gabby. I can see Caesar might be jealous, but why nervous? It would just give Caesar another way to control Xena - let her have her bit of fluff on the side. > Xena is unpleasantly surprised to find Alti in her bedroom. The priestess > has no place in the empress's bedchambers. Alti arrogantly says it's > Caesar's bedroom too. Alti has come to kill Xena and take her place but it > won't be easy. They fight but Alti gets her hands around Xena's throat and > the pain from Xena's past comes back to her. For Xena the flashes are > painful but also puzzling; they aren't from the past she experienced in > this life. Just as Xena is about to be killed, Caesar and Brutus stop > Alti. Caesar appears to have real concern over the attack and is willing > to kill Alti on the spot but Xena stops him. She wants the pleasure of > killing Alti herself. Unwise move, Xena. Shouldn't take chances with Alti. It's the old James Bond syndrome - "I could shoot you now, Mr Bond, but instead I will leave you in this diabolical trap that will give you several hours to escape so you can come back and kill me" > As Alti is lead away to prison Caesar embraces his > wife. Gabrielle suddenly appears on her balcony and is embarrassed to see > the couple's intimate moment. Caesar however is more disturbed - Gabrielle > is the greater danger than Alti. Her bond with Xena may shatter the false > world he created. But how does he know this? Does he 'remember' all that happened before he changed the Fates' loom? If so, why, when nobody else does? > In the cell Xena questions the frightened prisoner. Is she an assassin? > Gabrielle is astonished at the charge. She writes plays; she lives on a > vineyard by the sea; she's never hurt a soul in her life. Xena doesn't > take much convincing that Gabrielle's innocence. She says that anyone who > believes in love like Gabrielle couldn't be a murder. Ummm, that's Katherine Fugate talking, not Xena. This *is* supposed to be the real Xena, right? With most of Xena's character, even if not all her experiences. I don't remember naivety being among her traits. That's Gabrielle's job ;) > Also the very > absurdity of the charges weighs in Gabrielle's favor. Gabrielle can't > understand why Caesar wants her dead and neither can Xena. As the two sit > together you can hear the crosses being built. Gabrielle's wonders about > the hammering and Xena echoes the Caesar's offhand words from another life > time: "you can't have a crucifixion without crosses". Those little refernces to the series were the good bits. > Xena is resolved to find out just what is going on. She and Joxer go to > Alti's cell. She orders Joxer her to leave her alone with Alti. Joxer > protests but quickly leaves when Xena offers to beat the tar out of him - > the more things change the more they stay the same. I did like that little bit of dialogue - BARNABUS But Caesar said? XENA To enrage the Empress till she beats the tar out of you? BARNABUS No, I must have missed that. I'll open the door. > Xena asks Alti why she > implicated the playwright in her plot. Alti is surprised and amused by the > question. She never implicated the little bard in any plot. Interesting that Xena believes her. Actually, I believe her. But I could see advantages for Alti in turning Xena and Caesar against each other. > In the courtyard Gabrielle is laid on the cross. Caesar watches and is > sure once Gabrielle is out of the way his plot will not be discovered. What plot? And why would Gabrielle know anything about it? > > In the palace Alti awaits Caesar. Caesar isn't surprised to see her. He > figured that it was Alti who showed Xena the truth and was rewarded with > her freedom. Interesting. It was Caesar who had Alti clapped in jail. Xena had no authority to release her. Caesar could be expected to have her thrown back in. Alti must have been very confident of her ability to persuade Caesar. > At the top of a hill, Xena dressed in her leather garb fires at Alti with > her bow. She rides down the steep hill to get to Gabrielle. Alti > fast-forwards out there (I really dislike that effect). Xena goes to > Gabrielle but the bard is still in Alti's thrall and it obviously in great > distress. Xena screams for Alti and demands that Alti let Gabrielle go. > Xena tells Alti that this is not about her. Alti disagrees - it is all > about her and what she knows and the power that gives her. Alti flies at > Xena and they fight. Xena knocks the wind out of Alti and this breaks the > spell that is over Gabrielle. Xena is beating the stuffing out Alti when > suddenly Caesar and his guards arrive. This was in Mangere Mountain (I say 'in' rather than 'on' because it's a volcanic crater). The last time they used it, I think. Mangere has a certain sentimental significance because it was the first location used by Xena. The very first sight of Xena - by her horse, with Iolaus, in Warrior Princess - was at Mangere, as was the attack on the wagons. And the very first shot of the first XWP ep - Sins of the Past - was a few seconds of Xena riding her horse at that same spot. I wonder if TPTB did that deliberately as a sort of 'in-joke' back-reference to TWP? > Xena now takes on the guards. She kills a number of them but she is > finally brought down by two cross bowmen (arrows are just going to be the > death of that girl). Nicely put! :) > That same day Caesar and Brutus meet. Caesar asks Brutus how things are > among the troops. Brutus hedges a bit. The army is upset by their > commander's arrest. Caesar says she attacked Roman soldiers and disobeyed > him. That is treason. Brutus agrees. The Caesar says Alti will be > joining the campaign as his new empress. Brutus is clearly surprised but > when Caesar presses him on the subject Brutus accepts the fact. Caesar now > approached his friend and suddenly he stabs Brutus. Caesar has burned all > his bridges and all those he believes to be a danger to him are dead or > soon will be. Another nice touch - this time a reversal of the original. But *did* Caesar have a 'memory' of the original timeline? Did he kill Brutus in that way deliberately, or was it just coincidence? > In the cell a grievously wounded Xena contemplates her lives. Joxer > arrives with Gabrielle whom he gently teases. He says that he can't > believe they were going to kill her for writing that bad play. A rather > startled bard looks at him. Joxer says it needed more fight scenes. A reference to The Play's the Thing, if I'm not mistaken. As well as LL's comment about RT (IIRC). > In the cell Xena is in a bad way. Gabrielle is heartbroken at the sight. > Xena struggles to sit up. Gabrielle has seen her real fate at the hands of > Alti and Xena confirms that Caesar has some how manipulated their fate to > give them this "gods forsaken world'. There is no time now. They express > their love for one another. In this world Xena can openly express her love > for Gabrielle. There are no euphemisms; no "you are the best thing in my > life". Xena says clearly that she will love Gabrielle forever. Xena now > also realizes something else; she now knows that Caesar's fate and her fate > are all linked to the hated cross. Things had to happen precisely as they > happened. Gabrielle is unsureand she wants to stay with Xena but Xena > says she must go and live. She has to go through this alone. There is an > emotional farewell (Kleenexes for subtextors and I don't what the heck the > non-subtextors do now since we pretty much have shot the best friend and > sister theory in the head about now). Non-subtexters say "This is an alternate reality, not the *real* one" and go back to trimming their fingernails. > It is raining in the courtyard and it's probably snowing on Mount Amarro. > Xena is lead out; she is resigned to her death. A death that, I believe, > she some how knows will lead to Caesar's fall. A triumphant Alti and > Caesar watch Xena go to the cross. They are certain of their victory. > They don't know that on a road outside of Rome an angry and driven woman is > headed to the Temple of the Fates. Alti and Caesar go to the bed that > Caesar shared with Xena to consummate their partnership. As Xena is nailed > to the cross, Alti and Caesar have sex. Caesar doesn't realize that he is > living out the dream he had in the Ides of March and the danger he is in. Another nice reference.... > As Xena's torture at the cross comes to a climax, so does Caesar's loving > make but in both cases the climax is death. Alti, at the height of > Caesar's passion, viciously stabs him. Caesar has not escaped his fate - > Xena's crucifixion has once again lead to his death. Now *why* did Alti kill Caesar? That just destroyed all her power in Rome. Unless, like the scorpion in Path of Vengeance, she couldn't help herself - "It's what I do". But that doesn't seem like Alti. Without Caesar (even if no-one knows she killed him), she'd just priestess of the temple, and probably no-one's favourite. She may even be disliked *because* she was favoured by Caesar, and on the 'enemies list' of whoever turns out to be his successor. This doesn't really make sense. > The loom burns and suddenly there is a great cosmic explosion. Cool CGI !!! > In a foggy > woods, Gabrielle now dressed in her regular sixth season costume appears > lost. Suddenly out of the fog rides Xena on Argo. Both women although a > bit stunned seem their old selves. Xena says Gabrielle has brought the > world back to itself but won't she regret not being a famous playwright. > Gabrielle is content she doesn't need fame. Gabrielle climbs aboard Argo > but she is curious about one thing. Did Xena really like her play? The > taciturn warrior says yeah but it needed more fight scenes. A resigned > Gabrielle says everyone is a critic. The pair rides off into the haze > together as fate meant it to be. That was neat. I loved the nonchalant way they picked up where they left off. It had the laid-back style of 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid'. (And what a relief after all that overheated emotion.... ) > This is to be a great episode. Oh I hear the scoffs from some quarters but > I love this episode. First off I like the fact that Katherine Fulgate was > a fan of Xena and used her knowledge of the series so well. The fact that > she can reference cannon episodes such as Fallen Angel, Ides of March, and > The Debt in a meaningful way added to my enjoyment of this episode. There > were no glaring errors to distract the long time viewer and the references > were not so obscure that they would confuse the more casual viewer. Yes, that part of it was well done. There were some major glitches in the plot, though - first, why should Caesar be so alarmed about Xena and Gabs getting together? Second, (as you pointed out), if he was, why did he bother to have her jailed and crucified? Surely that would really set Xena off. Why didn't he just send Gabs back home as rapidly as possible. And if need be, have her quietly disappear on the way, I'm sure it could be arranged. An attack by bandits in Greece, perhaps? (In fact Caesar later sent Alti to do just that.... but it was really stupid to do it so close to home). Third, as KT has pointed out and will doubtless do so again, why would Xena trust Caesar not to kill Gabs the moment she herself was dead? And fourth, why did Alti kill Caesar? That is quite inexplicable. > In a stunningly > ruthless act Gabrielle destroys the bogus world and thus resets the world > to it's proper order. If it's that easy, howcome no suicidal psycho hadn't done it before? (I'm not calling Gabs that, mind ;) - but just pointing out that there were doubtless many other desperate or unbalanced people in the world. On second thoughts, destroying the world just because everything around her personally was so disastrous, is rather suicidal and psychotic, I would've thought). Come to that, the Fates were Greek weren't they? - howcome they and their loom were so conveniently located near Rome? > > Well I can't wait to hear comments especially from KT. KT just about had > the vapors when she heard Fulgate was writing a Xena movies script so I > expect to see some scathing comments soon. > > CherylA However one describes KT's reactions, I don't think 'the vapours' is in character ;) OK, Xena was good, Alti was good, the back-references were very well done, but the subtext I can live without and there were som hefty plot holes. *Much* bigger ones than in Friend in Need, for example cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 18:36:17 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" But why would Caesar be nervous about Xena talking to some obscure Greek playwright? And further, not one who writes about freedom or democracy or politics or anything dangerous, but just sappy romance? Caesar in this timeline should know nothing of Gabby. I can see Caesar might be jealous, but why nervous? It would just give Caesar another way to control Xena - let her have her bit of fluff on the side. Caesar was the only one who remembered the other reality. Remember when Xena approaches him after her second visit with Alti and just as Gabby is about to be crucified she says something about breaking her legs was a bit drastic (referring to Destiny) and Caesar then says well he's had better experiences with women. Caesar confesses he has manipulated fate. So from Caesar's point of view if her can remember the other reality then others may be able to also. When Gabrielle suddenly shows up I think he is afraid that if they two get together they may somehow spark those memories. As for Alti's motivation in killing Caesar, I agree I think she was bit hasty. If I would have been her I would have consolidated my power before taking out Caesar. However with Brutus and Xena dead she may have thought now was the perfect time to kill Caesar and he certainly made it easy for her. Once Brutus, Caesar, and Xena were dead there would be a power she could fill. I'm sure she could also make a case that she was acting to save Rome - Caesar for some unknown suddenly has gone mad, she could argue. He has kill peaceful emissaries from Chin, arrested some harmless playwright and then just as suddenly pardons her, killed his best friend and had his wife and beloved empress crucified. He was also trying to take advantage of the High Priestess of Rome - oh what can a patriot and respectable woman do - why defend her virtue and Rome by killing the would be tyrant. It would be a crock but I bet it would have played well to the citizens and the army. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:09:48 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide In a message dated 5/31/2003 1:35:19 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > cr, dear, methinks we have *got* to work on your sensitivity to "tongue in > >cheek." > > > >-- Ife > > Yeah. I used to be much better at it. > > The trouble is two-fold - first, ya can't tell tone of voice over the > Internet. And second, where I work, my sense of incredulity is constantly > being so severely strained by the unbelievable corporate stupidity that goes > > on non-stop, that I find it hard to recognise subtlety when I see it any > more. > > cr > LOL! I know what you mean, believe me. Of course, there have been times I assumed someone was kidding around about a XWP idea, only to discover they're being perfectly serious. But at least we *know* we're dealing with fantasy (most of us, anyway), so it's understandable. When you have to live with that IRL, it can make you cautious even in "fun" contexts. That's okay. We're here for you. As well as Certain Individuals who are as subtle as jack hammers. Pounding away over and over and .... Oops. Forgive the digression. What was that we were talking about? Oh, right. Subtlety. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 20:09:50 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena reviews In a message dated 5/31/2003 12:59:31 AM Central Daylight Time, sojourner@paradise.net.nz writes: > Welcome to the "dark side" of an argument with KT. I can tell you it is no > less frustrating in person - even when I get her completely drunk. >> What about passed out? (Her I mean.) Does she still manage to mumble incoherent circuities? > > However - on this one, I completely agree with her.>> What is the Xenaverse coming to?! She's the devil, I tell you! Have you no concern for your soul? (It's different when I agree with her. I'm already past redemption.) Even if I don't quite > > believe that "Thou shalt not say nice things about thyself" was mistakenly > left off in favour of "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours ass" - I think > Moses was trying to say "Thou shalt not make an ass of thyself". > > It struck me as waaaay out of character at the time and still does. Perhaps > the "round argument" chould go: > > It's not the kind of thing Xena would say > She never said anything like it again > Gabby might have said it > Gabby said things like that all the time > Lucy and Renee got their scripts damp that day > Director wasn't paying attention > Writer was an idiot > > C'mon - pick me apart! > I'm remembering the first time Xena told Draco and Marcus she'd changed. They too thought she was saying she was better than them. She warned her brother against murdering Cortes, and her brother reminded her that she hadn't been much better herself. Her exchange with Macon was not the first time she'd used herself as an example of trying to be/do better -- "better" not in the sense of better than someone else, but better than what she had been, in making a more honorable choice. She didn't have to say it all the time, as she *did* it everytime she fought for the greater good, often with the statement or implication that she was more trustworthy or competent than someone else. I could maybe understand "arrogant" or "snide" -- even "contemptuous." But "bragging"? When there was no reason for her to want to impress Macon? I just don't see anything uncharacteristic about her speaking the truth, especially about herself. Is it because she said something positive, rather than negative? Is it "right" if she only says what a terrible person she is? Is it "wrong" because Gabrielle was supposed to be the "voice" for anything good about Xena? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:52:25 +1200 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Sunday 01 Jun 2003 10:36 am, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > But why would Caesar be nervous about Xena talking to some obscure Greek > playwright? And further, not one who writes about freedom or democracy or > politics or anything dangerous, but just sappy romance? Caesar in this > timeline should know nothing of Gabby. I can see Caesar might be jealous, > but why nervous? It would just give Caesar another way to control Xena - > let her have her bit of fluff on the side. > > Caesar was the only one who remembered the other reality. Remember when > Xena approaches him after her second visit with Alti and just as Gabby is > about to be crucified she says something about breaking her legs was a bit > drastic (referring to Destiny) and Caesar then says well he's had better > experiences with women. Caesar confesses he has manipulated fate. So from > Caesar's point of view if her can remember the other reality then others > may be able to also. When Gabrielle suddenly shows up I think he is afraid > that if they two get together they may somehow spark those memories. OK. Good point. So presumably Caesar managed to retain his memories of the other world, while no-one else did. It was never explained how or why, I guess we have to assume that it's something to do with the fact that it was he who 'fixed' the loom. > As for Alti's motivation in killing Caesar, I agree I think she was bit > hasty. If I would have been her I would have consolidated my power before > taking out Caesar. However with Brutus and Xena dead she may have thought > now was the perfect time to kill Caesar and he certainly made it easy for > her. Once Brutus, Caesar, and Xena were dead there would be a power she > could fill. I'm sure she could also make a case that she was acting to > save Rome - Caesar for some unknown suddenly has gone mad, she could argue. > He has kill peaceful emissaries from Chin, arrested some harmless > playwright and then just as suddenly pardons her, killed his best friend > and had his wife and beloved empress crucified. He was also trying to take > advantage of the High Priestess of Rome - oh what can a patriot and > respectable woman do - why defend her virtue and Rome by killing the would > be tyrant. It would be a crock but I bet it would have played well to the > citizens and the army. > > CherylA Hmmmm. This assumes that Alti has very considerable powers of persuasion and (what is not always the same thing) mass persuasion (or whatever one calls the ability to control a crowd). Also assumes that Mark Anthony wasn't around, I think, as anyone who recalls Shakespear's 'Julius Caesar' will appreciate ;) But I still think it was crazy on Alti's part - Caesar controlled Rome and she controlled Caesar. Why rock the boat? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 01:22:46 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide On Sunday 01 Jun 2003 12:09 pm, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > The trouble is two-fold - first, ya can't tell tone of voice over the > > Internet. And second, where I work, my sense of incredulity is > > constantly being so severely strained by the unbelievable corporate > > stupidity that goes > > > > on non-stop, that I find it hard to recognise subtlety when I see it any > > more. > > > > cr > > LOL! I know what you mean, believe me. Of course, there have been times I > assumed someone was kidding around about a XWP idea, only to discover > they're being perfectly serious. But at least we *know* we're dealing with > fantasy (most of us, anyway), so it's understandable. Yeah. Trouble with our corporate managers, they like to fantasise that they're being busiunesslike, efficient and competitive. Most of 'em couldn't manage a burger bar. Ever read "Big Blues"? Well, IBM was/is far from alone in its bureaucratic excesses. > When you have to > live with that IRL, it can make you cautious even in "fun" contexts. > That's okay. We're here for you. As well as Certain Individuals who are > as subtle as jack hammers. Pounding away over and over and .... Oops. > Forgive the digression. What was that we were talking about? Oh, right. > Subtlety. > > -- Ife I'm sure your little comment will attract an icy blast in a few weeks time. And then you'll be able to say "Denali ain't a river in Egypt" ;) cr ... being subtle, or maybe just obscure ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:52:29 -0400 From: "bookdaft" Subject: [chakram-refugees] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5Bchakram-refugees=5D_X's_stunt_double_Zo=E B_Bell_doc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?umentary?= As ever late posting, I've seen this website and I, too, would like to see this film. As for Zok Bell, she was one of the guests at the 2001 Pasadena Creation convention and gave one heckuva show. She appeared with one of the Second Unit directors, whose first name was Paul, I think, but the rest of his name escapes me now. They were describing verbally and physically just what Zok's job was. As Lucy's stunt double, she made all those moves (and flips) seem so easy. I believe she was at the Orlando Creation con a year ago and I would have loved to have seen her again, but couldn't be there. If Creation ever does have at one of their cons and she is healthy again, I encourage everyone to see her. She's great. bd - -----Original Message----- From: owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org [mailto:owner-chakram-refugees@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Katsunori Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:12 AM To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: [chakram-refugees] X's stunt double Zoe Bell documentary Hi I just found interesting documentary movie project -Double Dare. Below is taken from http://www.runawayfilms.com/ <> << Unfortunately, in the final weeks of shooting Kill Bill, Zoe fractured and dislocated her wrist in a rehearsal and had to have major surgery. She is in cast, and will have 6 months of rehab. Depsite that bad luck, she is in good spirits>> I would like to see the documentary. Katsu The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= _____________________________________________________ This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #151 **************************************