From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest)
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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #148
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chakram-refugees-digest     Thursday, May 29 2003     Volume 03 : Number 148



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram  [cr <cr]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram                   [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] 'There are thousands more like me'  [cr <cr@orcon.n]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143  [cr <cr@orcon.]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide        [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debts (was: Re: Chakram)  [Stephanie Wilson <ss]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide  [Stephanie Wilson <sswilso@]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram    [Stephanie Wilson <sswilso@uark.edu>]
  RE: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide  ["Ann Reddecliffe" <xjv05@dial.]
  RE: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide  ["Ann Reddecliffe" <xjv05@d]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143  [IfeRae@aol.co]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide              [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debts (was: Re: Chakram)    [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] 'There are thousands more like me'  [IfeRae@aol.com]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:33:45 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram

On Wednesday 28 May 2003 02:28, Ribaud, Lynn wrote:
>
> 	I also don't like the idea of Gabrielle "taking over" from Xena, in
> the sense of replacing her.  But I feel this wasn't TPTB's meaning.  To me,
> it was more the idea of Gabrielle carrying on in Xena's tradition (OK, a
> one-person tradition...).  I see it in the light of academic succession, if
> you will.  Who remembers the mentors of, say, Einstein or Heisenberg?  And
> yet neither was a genius sui generis.  In fact, both needed help with their
> mathematics.  In the same way, Gabs will never *be* Xena -- she simply
> doesn't have the same motivations, questions of mystical abilities aside.

Hmmm.   Yes, Gabrielle following in Xena's tradition is less difficult for me 
to accept than Gabs 'replacing' her.   That point is well made.

But I still have trouble with Gabs inheriting the chacky - notwithstanding 
the examples people have given of others using it, to me the chacky was 
Xena's trademark, far more so than her sword, and I really feel that, like 
Excalibur with Arthur, it should have ceased to exist or gone back whence it 
came in some fashion, when Xena died.   

cr
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:28:32 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram

On Wednesday 28 May 2003 02:22, Stephanie Wilson wrote:
> At 12:02 PM 5/28/2003 +1200, cr wrote:
> >On Tuesday 27 May 2003 07:23, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> > > > IfeRae wrote:
> > > > >When Diana launched it, since she had no idea how to control it, the
> > > >
> > > > chacky
> > > >
> > > > >had no target 'in mind' so just switched off its internal guidance
> > > > > and bounced off whatever happened to be in the way.>>
> > >
> > > Um, no, that wasn't me.  "Internal guidance" suggests maybe that was
> > > cr. <g>
> >
> >You'd be right   :)
> >
> > > > Nah the chaky was just having a bit of fun.  It bounced around,
> > > > whacked the crown off the kings head and then stuck in the tree.  It
> > > > probably was just miffed Xena loaned it out without asking
> > > > permission.
> > > >
> > > > CherylA
> > >
> > > I found it amusing that the chaky managed to take kingy down a peg
> > > without Diana even aware of his presence.  According to you and cr,
> > > this might suggest that Diana had some repressed resentment toward
> > > Pops, which the chaky picked up on.
> >
> >Ummm, no.    Not from me, anyway.   All I'll suggest is that Diana didn't
> >have a clue how to control it so her shot was random.   Like a beginner
> > with a gun.
> >
> >cr
>
> I know I can't throw a gun for anything. *g*  But seriously. I've been
> watching this thread bounce around and the gun thing is a good analogy.
> I've always figured that it was always a skill, to be able to throw and
> catch the Chakram, that took considerable effort to learn to do very well.
> Like firing a gun. But then you have to explain how Callisto could, without
> any backstory on it, 

I think the implication in the ep was that Callisto had spent a lot of time 
practising how to beat Xena.   I always imagined she must have practised with 
a replica chacky.   

> and how Gabrielle could without any tutelage (none
> that I remember seeing, anyway), et cetera. I've also just always figured
> there was some far-off tree we never saw that Xena always used to ricochet
> the thing off of. *s* However. Lao Ma taught Xena that anything can be used
> as a weapon, and she demonstrated it with a harmless looking hair pin, 

That was neat, the way it passed from Xena's possession back to lao Ma, to 
Ming Tien, to Xena who promptly killed Ming Tien with it.   

cr
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:54:30 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] 'There are thousands more like me'

On Wednesday 28 May 2003 09:56, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 5/27/03 7:09:09 AM Central Daylight Time,
> cr@orcon.net.nz writes:
>
> <<  But wouldn't somebody (e.g. the Furies) have noticed
>  this fast-moving shiny thing in the background going boing-boing-ting ?
>
>
> "Stealth" mode.
>
> -- Ife

Ha!   'Stealth' definitely suggests something more sophisticated than just 
ricocheting off all the scenery.    ;)

cr
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:02:16 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143

On Wednesday 28 May 2003 09:56, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:

(massive snips)

>
> Macon *initiated* the exchange, with something like, "Why did you come
> back? What did you expect?"   He couldn't see the profit or reward in
> Xena's action.  She essentially said, "I didn't expect anything from you.
> It's what I expect from myself that matters," as well as "I didn't expect
> any more from you than you were prepared to give --nothing."   What
> would've been unXenalike to me in that situation is either false modesty or
> complete dismissal of a genuinely asked question.  I just don't see how
> stating what motivates her is somehow uncharacteristic here, to the point
> of pretension or bragging.  <shrug>
>
> -- Ife

It's just the glibness of the phrase that unsettles me.   It's too neat, too 
clever.    Too smug.   

cr
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Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 11:03:15 +1200
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

Did I comment on this one?   I was going to, but I don't think I did, and I 
just destroyed my entire Mail box  (don't ask!).    


I do recall cande observing, very acutely, how odd it was that a couple of 
Xena's memories were of post-Destiny events and hence shouldn't have occurred 
in the 'WFC' world.    I must admit I think I missed the significance of that 
completely when I watched the ep.



>
> "Heh, I'll let cr take this one.  I'm not implying who is or isn't a
> subtexter.  I'm thinking the "best friend" theory may be wounded here but
> not necessarily killed."

Two words:    Alternate reality.   What Alternate Xena and Alternate Gabs 
did, like what Alternate Caesar and Alternate Joxer did, does not necessarily 
exactly reflect what the 'regular' Xena and Gabs would do.   

cr
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:01:36 -0500
From: Stephanie Wilson <sswilso@uark.edu>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debts (was: Re: Chakram)

I wrote:

>Lao Ma taught Xena that anything can be used
> > as a weapon, and she demonstrated it with a harmless looking hair pin,

cr replied:

>That was neat, the way it passed from Xena's possession back to lao Ma, to
>Ming Tien, to Xena who promptly killed Ming Tien with it.
>
>cr

Yeh, it was neat - one of my favorite pieces of symbolism in Xena. You 
don't havta search too deeply to know the significance by the end of the 
Debts of Xena shoving that thing in Ming Tien's temple. From Lao Ma to Xena 
to Ming Tien to Xena to Lao Ma. Vengeance can be sweet, but bitter.

I think that was actually the first time it really got to me in some way to 
know Xena would commit true malice aforethought. Not just your weekly run 
of the mill warlord wiping-out-of. This was vigilantism.
When she left Gabrielle behind, it bothered me. Would she really throw 
everything away? "Yes."
My reaction was: *What!* But when she avenged Lao Ma, I felt a sense of 
relief, intrigue and anxiety about it on some level. My Xena was capable of 
this. The doer of dirty deeds that must be done. After that, I looked at 
her in a different light - not a bad one, mind you - just a different one, 
because she was turning out to be alot more than I thought she was.

Part of the reason The Debts are my faves.

S.
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:06:25 -0500
From: Stephanie Wilson <sswilso@uark.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

At 11:03 AM 5/30/2003 +1200, cr wrote:
> > "Heh, I'll let cr take this one.  I'm not implying who is or isn't a
> > subtexter.  I'm thinking the "best friend" theory may be wounded here but
> > not necessarily killed."
>
>Two words:    Alternate reality.   What Alternate Xena and Alternate Gabs
>did, like what Alternate Caesar and Alternate Joxer did, does not necessarily
>exactly reflect what the 'regular' Xena and Gabs would do.
>
>cr

My take on the whole WFC thing is that it was an alternate reality where 
all things were turned on their heads, but there was a common thread 
running through all of it, the same common love thread that ran through 
XnG's lives in the real world, in the clone world, in the Viking world, and 
so on. That things are always changing, that the world is never the same, 
but there was always that love. *sappy sigh*

S.
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:16:17 -0500
From: Stephanie Wilson <sswilso@uark.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram

At 09:28 AM 5/30/2003 +1200, cr wrote:
> > I've always figured that it was always a skill, to be able to throw and
> > catch the Chakram, that took considerable effort to learn to do very well.
> > Like firing a gun. But then you have to explain how Callisto could, without
> > any backstory on it,
>
>I think the implication in the ep was that Callisto had spent a lot of time
>practising how to beat Xena.   I always imagined she must have practised with
>a replica chacky.

Ah, but if it were a replica chakram, then how did she get so good? If the 
gun analogy works so good, it's because you can't practice with a replica gun.

It'd be easier (for me) to imagine Callisto chucking clay plates at 
Theodorus from 100 meters than it is for me to imagine her having someone 
craft a realistic chakram for practice - which we never see or hear of. 
Just blam-o, she can catch Xena's chaky, no reason why. Other than the 
mystical ones you guys are coming up with, I mean. *s*

S.



> > and how Gabrielle could without any tutelage (none
> > that I remember seeing, anyway), et cetera. I've also just always figured
> > there was some far-off tree we never saw that Xena always used to ricochet
> > the thing off of. *s* However. Lao Ma taught Xena that anything can be used
> > as a weapon, and she demonstrated it with a harmless looking hair pin,
>
>That was neat, the way it passed from Xena's possession back to lao Ma, to
>Ming Tien, to Xena who promptly killed Ming Tien with it.
>
>cr
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Stephanie Wilson
Student Record Manager
University of Arkansas
Office of Independent Study
2 East Center
Fayetteville, AR  72703
800-638-1217 (toll-free)
479-575-5180 (direct)
Fax: 479-575-7357
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:41:51 +0100
From: "Ann Reddecliffe" <xjv05@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide

>>Alti puts her hands on Xena's throat and the visions begin again.  They
are
confused and random.  Xena watches as Caesar and Alti have sex, Xena sees
herself crucified on the beach and on Mount Amarro.  She sees Gabrielle in
many different situations and herself doing things she has never done in her
life.  She watches as Caesar cuts the threads of the fate.  Alti and Xena
break their connection and both are confused about what they have seen.
They
both however know that some how Caesar has altered destiny.  >>

If we can assume that Alti's powers are the same as they were in Sin Trade
then this is possible.  It is possible for Alti to show Xena flashes of
things that didn't happen in the past in this (Fates) reality.  In Sin Trade
Alti shows Xena some things from her past.  I don't think Alti says
specifically they were Xena's memories.  Then Alti shows Xena things that
have not happened in the Sin Trade reality.  These are the Najara fight and
the crucifixion.  These events are not in Xena's past, but they exist -
metaphysically - somewhere in time.

For the sake of argument, they may exist on the loom of the Fates, but
further along the thread than Xena had got at the moment of Sin Trade. It
maybe that Alti's powers always did let her tap into alternate realities and
the Najara fight and the crucifixion had already happened in a different
reality and Alti just tapped in to those.

It is right for Alti and Xena to be puzzled by the experience, but why did
Xena assume they were meant to be past events?  Why didn't she assume they
were visions of possible futures?  Or simply the ravings of a deranged mind?

Ann
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:41:53 +0100
From: "Ann Reddecliffe" <xjv05@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

> "Heh, I'll let cr take this one.  I'm not implying who is or isn't a
> subtexter.  I'm thinking the "best friend" theory may be wounded here but
> not necessarily killed."

Two words:    Alternate reality.   What Alternate Xena and Alternate Gabs
did, like what Alternate Caesar and Alternate Joxer did, does not
necessarily
exactly reflect what the 'regular' Xena and Gabs would do.   >>

Are you implying that there is something about Caeser and Joxer that we
haven't been told?!

Ann
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:19:25 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143

In a message dated 5/29/03 5:27:17 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< >
 > Macon *initiated* the exchange, with something like, "Why did you come
 > back? What did you expect?"   He couldn't see the profit or reward in
 > Xena's action.  She essentially said, "I didn't expect anything from you.
 > It's what I expect from myself that matters," as well as "I didn't expect
 > any more from you than you were prepared to give --nothing."   What
 > would've been unXenalike to me in that situation is either false modesty or
 > complete dismissal of a genuinely asked question.  I just don't see how
 > stating what motivates her is somehow uncharacteristic here, to the point
 > of pretension or bragging.  <shrug>
 >
 > -- Ife
 
 It's just the glibness of the phrase that unsettles me.   It's too neat, too 
 clever.    Too smug.   
  >>

LOL!  I loved it as beautifully precise and to the point, delivered with the 
same grim confidence as one of her sword thrusts -- except in this case the 
other person walked away.  If it could be perceived as too neat, clever or smug, 
so be it.  The clipped way Lucy said it and the fire in her eyes elevated the 
statement for me to.  What can I say? I prefer borderline justifiable 
arrogance over false modesty in my WP any day.  <g>

- -- Ife
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:19:31 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

In a message dated 5/28/03 3:19:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

<< Well for Caesar everything is about him, of course.  Let's face it Xena 
did want revenge for Caesar's betrayal - that's what The Deliverer was all 
about.  Certainly Caesar would be right that his betrayal did cause Xena to take a 
great deal of delight in foiling his plans.  >>

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about the vengeful Xena and murderous Gabs I became 
acquainted with in that ep.  :-)
 
 
 > << They fight but Alti gets her hands around Xena's throat and the pain
 > from Xena's past comes back to her.  For Xena the flashes are painful
 but
 > also
 > puzzling; they aren't from the past she experienced in this life.  >>
 
 I certainly hope you have a theory for this, o ye of the dancing chakram.
 
 Of course I do - I think.  The wizard did it - really.  Alti's power can 
bridge both space and time and there is no reason it can't also bridge 
dimensions.  The universe that existed before Caesar did his edit actually existed - the 
experiences of those who lived in that time happened in real space and time.  
I gather what Caesar did was to create another reality that existed after the 
previous reality existed.  Perhaps the memories of that previous existance 
are still hanging out there in the nether world.  What Alti's power did was to 
tap into those memories and perhaps those memories were more real than those 
that existed in Caesar's world.  >>

As Callisto said to Xena (prior to the latter watching the former sink in the 
mire), "Oh, you are soooo good!"  Seriously, tho (heh), I think wizardry does 
work in this case.  I'll sink ... um ... go with that.  <g>
 
 <>

Yes, I rather like that idea too.  As you say, it does fit with how Gabrielle 
described her "process."

<< Xena may have also had some kind of residual memory thus her reaction upon 
seeing Gabrielle and her kindness to Joxer when his child was sick. >>

I actually thought the latter was more a sign of how well Xena treated palace 
employees in general, soldiers in particular.

 << Joxer also  took great risks to help Gabrielle a stranger to him and 
despite his loyality to Xena, helping some one who was apparently on Caesar's hit 
list was a big risk for a Roman soldier. Was this just Joxer's natural 
kindness or was it a manifestation of the friendship he had for Gabrielle in the 
other reality. >>

Again, I took this is Joxer's potential regardless of the circumstances.  
Sort of another "they were destined to meet" scenario, with the characaters' 
basic qualities intact.

<< So perhaps what was happening was that everyone in Caesar's world had some 
inkling that something wasn't quite right. >>

You may have a point, in terms of the pre-existing memories you talk about 
above.  Gods.  I can't believe I'm discussing this.  You are truly subversive, 
you know that?
 
  
 << "I loved the irony in that "gods forsaken world," seeing as how Xena 
helped that process along."
 
Well the gods should have still existed in Caesar's world.  Xena never killed 
them.  In fact there was no big sleep here so we are probably in the same 
time period in which Ides took place. So gods have not forsaken the world, but 
are they aware of Caesar's manipulation?  That's an interesting thought and 
something to speculate about >>

No it isn't!   Mytical chakys and memories is bad enough, don't you think? 
 
 <<  "Why "in this world"?   I'm assuming you mean the subtext is maintext 
here. Do you see something special in this alternate reality that fosters 
this,or are you simply meaning it's there more than in other eps?"
 
 Well I certainly think that in this script subtext is maintext but I don't 
think I meant that exactly.  What I am talking about is that in this universe 
Xena is more willing to express her feelings. >>

Ah.  Got it.  Yes, Xena was much more "care free" in this setting.

 << Well maybe we can still get away with romantic friendship here but I 
think we are way beyond "let's go to the mall" girlfriends here.  When Gabrielle 
says "I have written about love but never known it till now" that just isn't 
something best buddies say to one another.  When Xena says to Gabrielle just as 
she is about be executed "I'll love you forever" I just don't see this a 
simple friendship.  I think in this episode Xena and Gabrielle love one another in 
a romantic way period.  There is no other explanation for their actions. >>

I believe most folks agree X&G had more than a "simple" friendship, although 
some may defne "friendship" as encompassing everything from "best buddies" to  
"romantic."   I do think this ep gave one of the strongest nods to the 
subtext in terms of what we typically hear and see in media related to "romance."   
To me, the love overtly expressed was conveyed in their day-to-day 
interactions, which I typically see in deeply committed couples.  If I hadn't seen that 
over the course of the series, I wouldn't have been impressed by (believed) 
there was more to that in Fates.  Similarly, there are others who saw two loving 
friends with a special bond, exploring the world together, who never wanted to 
part and would be there for each other through thick and thin.  They probably 
watched Fates the way some subtexters watched all those male "red-shirt" eps, 
discarding the interpretations that didn't "fit" with their perspective.
 
 
 << "You go, girl!  Get those scoffers good!"
 
 Well I'm awaitin' for them.  They must be sharpening their scoffing skills. 
>>

Heh.  They just got through cleaning out their inbox of threads from last 
month.  Probally take 'em awhile to catch up.
 
 << I don't think the Xena and Gabrielle in Caesar's time line are at heart 
any different than the X & G of the real time line.  Their experiences were 
different and how their persoanlities manifested themselves was different but 
their character stays the same - if that makes sense. >>

Yes, by golly, it does.  That's what I was trying to say earlier.

 << Perhaps if Caesar was really clever he just could have arranged an 
acident- whoops Gabby slipped off her balcony. >>

ROFLMAO!!!  True, but where's the drama?  Xena wailing over Gabrielle's 
broken body?  Oooo, this could send her into darkness -- vowing to hunt down the 
killer or, if it was thought to be an accident, anybody who got in her way.
 
<< Perhaps he thinks he has outfoxed his destiny. He can now get rid of Xena 
if he kills Brutus whom he sees as his only threat after his wife.  He is of 
course wrong by killing Xena and Brutus he has no one standing between him and 
Alti.  Alti seeing Caesar's ally dead and Xena, her biggest rival for power 
about to be dead, Alti moves against Caesar.  Caesar once again causes his own 
downfall.
  >
 
Oooo, I hadn't thought of it that way, in terms of clearing a path for Alti.  
Yes!
 
>> She promised me in Pasadena that she had a big post someway out there.  I 
here waiting and I'm sure she'll post as soon as she stops hyperventilating.
 
  >>

KT hyperventilating?  Ya think?  Maybe she'll sublimate all that in her One 
Big Post.

- -- Ife
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:19:22 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

In a message dated 5/29/03 9:07:29 AM Central Daylight Time, sswilso@uark.edu 
writes:

<< My take on the whole WFC thing is that it was an alternate reality where 
 all things were turned on their heads, but there was a common thread 
 running through all of it, the same common love thread that ran through 
 XnG's lives in the real world, in the clone world, in the Viking world, and 
 so on. That things are always changing, that the world is never the same, 
 but there was always that love. *sappy sigh*
  >>

Yes, and that X&G were destined to meet (as they did also in "Remember 
Nothing").  Except in "Armageddon," they were shown as destined to be together in 
infinite ways, regardless of one how one characterizes the relationship.

- -- Ife
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:19:31 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide

In a message dated 5/28/03 3:19:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

<< Well for Caesar everything is about him, of course.  Let's face it Xena 
did want revenge for Caesar's betrayal - that's what The Deliverer was all 
about.  Certainly Caesar would be right that his betrayal did cause Xena to take a 
great deal of delight in foiling his plans.  >>

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about the vengeful Xena and murderous Gabs I became 
acquainted with in that ep.  :-)
 
 
 > << They fight but Alti gets her hands around Xena's throat and the pain
 > from Xena's past comes back to her.  For Xena the flashes are painful
 but
 > also
 > puzzling; they aren't from the past she experienced in this life.  >>
 
 I certainly hope you have a theory for this, o ye of the dancing chakram.
 
 Of course I do - I think.  The wizard did it - really.  Alti's power can 
bridge both space and time and there is no reason it can't also bridge 
dimensions.  The universe that existed before Caesar did his edit actually existed - the 
experiences of those who lived in that time happened in real space and time.  
I gather what Caesar did was to create another reality that existed after the 
previous reality existed.  Perhaps the memories of that previous existance 
are still hanging out there in the nether world.  What Alti's power did was to 
tap into those memories and perhaps those memories were more real than those 
that existed in Caesar's world.  >>

As Callisto said to Xena (prior to the latter watching the former sink in the 
mire), "Oh, you are soooo good!"  Seriously, tho (heh), I think wizardry does 
work in this case.  I'll sink ... um ... go with that.  <g>
 
 <>

Yes, I rather like that idea too.  As you say, it does fit with how Gabrielle 
described her "process."

<< Xena may have also had some kind of residual memory thus her reaction upon 
seeing Gabrielle and her kindness to Joxer when his child was sick. >>

I actually thought the latter was more a sign of how well Xena treated palace 
employees in general, soldiers in particular.

 << Joxer also  took great risks to help Gabrielle a stranger to him and 
despite his loyality to Xena, helping some one who was apparently on Caesar's hit 
list was a big risk for a Roman soldier. Was this just Joxer's natural 
kindness or was it a manifestation of the friendship he had for Gabrielle in the 
other reality. >>

Again, I took this is Joxer's potential regardless of the circumstances.  
Sort of another "they were destined to meet" scenario, with the characaters' 
basic qualities intact.

<< So perhaps what was happening was that everyone in Caesar's world had some 
inkling that something wasn't quite right. >>

You may have a point, in terms of the pre-existing memories you talk about 
above.  Gods.  I can't believe I'm discussing this.  You are truly subversive, 
you know that?
 
  
 << "I loved the irony in that "gods forsaken world," seeing as how Xena 
helped that process along."
 
Well the gods should have still existed in Caesar's world.  Xena never killed 
them.  In fact there was no big sleep here so we are probably in the same 
time period in which Ides took place. So gods have not forsaken the world, but 
are they aware of Caesar's manipulation?  That's an interesting thought and 
something to speculate about >>

No it isn't!   Mytical chakys and memories is bad enough, don't you think? 
 
 <<  "Why "in this world"?   I'm assuming you mean the subtext is maintext 
here. Do you see something special in this alternate reality that fosters 
this,or are you simply meaning it's there more than in other eps?"
 
 Well I certainly think that in this script subtext is maintext but I don't 
think I meant that exactly.  What I am talking about is that in this universe 
Xena is more willing to express her feelings. >>

Ah.  Got it.  Yes, Xena was much more "care free" in this setting.

 << Well maybe we can still get away with romantic friendship here but I 
think we are way beyond "let's go to the mall" girlfriends here.  When Gabrielle 
says "I have written about love but never known it till now" that just isn't 
something best buddies say to one another.  When Xena says to Gabrielle just as 
she is about be executed "I'll love you forever" I just don't see this a 
simple friendship.  I think in this episode Xena and Gabrielle love one another in 
a romantic way period.  There is no other explanation for their actions. >>

I believe most folks agree X&G had more than a "simple" friendship, although 
some may defne "friendship" as encompassing everything from "best buddies" to  
"romantic."   I do think this ep gave one of the strongest nods to the 
subtext in terms of what we typically hear and see in media related to "romance."   
To me, the love overtly expressed was conveyed in their day-to-day 
interactions, which I typically see in deeply committed couples.  If I hadn't seen that 
over the course of the series, I wouldn't have been impressed by (believed) 
there was more to that in Fates.  Similarly, there are others who saw two loving 
friends with a special bond, exploring the world together, who never wanted to 
part and would be there for each other through thick and thin.  They probably 
watched Fates the way some subtexters watched all those male "red-shirt" eps, 
discarding the interpretations that didn't "fit" with their perspective.
 
 
 << "You go, girl!  Get those scoffers good!"
 
 Well I'm awaitin' for them.  They must be sharpening their scoffing skills. 
>>

Heh.  They just got through cleaning out their inbox of threads from last 
month.  Probally take 'em awhile to catch up.
 
 << I don't think the Xena and Gabrielle in Caesar's time line are at heart 
any different than the X & G of the real time line.  Their experiences were 
different and how their persoanlities manifested themselves was different but 
their character stays the same - if that makes sense. >>

Yes, by golly, it does.  That's what I was trying to say earlier.

 << Perhaps if Caesar was really clever he just could have arranged an 
acident- whoops Gabby slipped off her balcony. >>

ROFLMAO!!!  True, but where's the drama?  Xena wailing over Gabrielle's 
broken body?  Oooo, this could send her into darkness -- vowing to hunt down the 
killer or, if it was thought to be an accident, anybody who got in her way.
 
<< Perhaps he thinks he has outfoxed his destiny. He can now get rid of Xena 
if he kills Brutus whom he sees as his only threat after his wife.  He is of 
course wrong by killing Xena and Brutus he has no one standing between him and 
Alti.  Alti seeing Caesar's ally dead and Xena, her biggest rival for power 
about to be dead, Alti moves against Caesar.  Caesar once again causes his own 
downfall.
  >
 
Oooo, I hadn't thought of it that way, in terms of clearing a path for Alti.  
Yes!
 
>> She promised me in Pasadena that she had a big post someway out there.  I 
here waiting and I'm sure she'll post as soon as she stops hyperventilating.
 
  >>

KT hyperventilating?  Ya think?  Maybe she'll sublimate all that in her One 
Big Post.

- -- Ife
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:19:24 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Debts (was: Re: Chakram)

In a message dated 5/29/03 9:07:22 AM Central Daylight Time, sswilso@uark.edu 
writes:

<< I think that was actually the first time it really got to me in some way 
to 
 know Xena would commit true malice aforethought. Not just your weekly run 
 of the mill warlord wiping-out-of. This was vigilantism.
 When she left Gabrielle behind, it bothered me. Would she really throw 
 everything away? "Yes."
 My reaction was: *What!* But when she avenged Lao Ma, I felt a sense of 
 relief, intrigue and anxiety about it on some level. My Xena was capable of 
 this. The doer of dirty deeds that must be done. After that, I looked at 
 her in a different light - not a bad one, mind you - just a different one, 
 because she was turning out to be alot more than I thought she was.
  >>

Oh, I know what you mean, but first a minor quibble.  I didn't see this as 
vigilantism or pure vengeance initially.  (Maybe you didn't either and are 
mainly referring to the concluding moments of Debt.)   Xena didn't know at first 
that Lao Ma was dead, let alone by her son's hand.  She only knew that Baby Tien 
had done something so bad that her beloved mentor wanted her own son "made 
small" again.  Being Xena, her first instinct was to off -- assassinate -- him.  
Inadvertently, Gabs gave Xena the chance to "make him small" another way, by 
bringing down his reign.  Xena was content with that, ready to leave knowing 
he had survived.  But when he bragged about his matricide and then said his 
mother wanted him to give Xena that pin, I think Xena felt she had Lao Ma's 
permission to do whatever was necessary and which Xena was perfectly willing to do 
anyway at that point.  

To me, Xena was always willing to "clean up" her own messes (Baby Tien being 
one of them), despite her own complicity and the ruthlessness that might be 
involved.  However, as she told her brother Toris when he planned to kill 
Cortes, she made a distinction between premeditated revenge and what might happen in 
the course of battle or resolving some injustice.  Admittedly, I see a fine 
line between Xena's "justice" (by assassination or otherwise) and vengeance or 
vigilantism, except that it usually wasn't purely "personal," in the sense 
that her personal feelings weren't the only motivation.  Even after Hope killed 
Solan, I believe Xena was partly driven to kill Hope because of the enormous, 
supernatural evil she believed Hope represented.  

But when Xena ultimately killed Baby Tien, I felt like you -- a new dimension 
of "relief, intrigue and anxiety" about this "doer of dirty deeds that must 
be done."  This was truly a "human" hero who would chuck all that idealistic 
stuff out the window in a moment of pure, very personal rage at the 
monstrousness of Tien's ridicule and murder of such an important person in Xena's life.  
At the same time, I could only admire the fitting way Xena made Lao Ma "big" 
again.  What exquisite irony that Xena proved to Tien that -- even in death -- 
Lao Ma had the power to destroy him through the words and "weapon" Lao Ma got 
him to deliver himself to the one person she'd intended to serve at her side as 
her enforcer -- her Warrior Princess.  <sigh>  Bad as she was, ya gotta love 
the WP.  Nobody did it better. <g>

- -- Ife
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Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:19:26 EDT
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] 'There are thousands more like me'

In a message dated 5/29/03 5:27:06 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< > <<  But wouldn't somebody (e.g. the Furies) have noticed
 >  this fast-moving shiny thing in the background going boing-boing-ting ?
 >
 >
 > "Stealth" mode.
 >
 > -- Ife
 
 Ha!   'Stealth' definitely suggests something more sophisticated than just 
 ricocheting off all the scenery.    ;)
  >>

Yes, I said that in deference to your theory.  I take it you missed the 
tongue rolling around in my cheek.

- -- Ife
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