From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #147 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, May 29 2003 Volume 03 : Number 147 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram ["Ribau] Re: [chakram-refugees] Gina Torres @ Cannes [Stephanie Wilson Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram IfeRae wrote: > In a message dated 5/27/03 9:29:10 AM Central Daylight Time, > ribaud@bnl.gov > writes: > > << There are other ways the two obviously -- to me -- differ. I just > can't see Gabs mentoring someone in the way Xena did her. > If nothing else, > the mentoring between X and G was just too personal to be repeated. > Gabrielle came to be a good warrior not because that was her > intent (or > Xena's) but because it was a fairly direct (if not straight-forward) > consequence of her traveling with Xena. >> > > Hmmm, without commenting on mentorship per se, I have to > disagree here on > both counts mentioned above. Before we even heard about her > wanting to be a > bard, Gabrielle definitely expressed interest in being a > warrior like Xena. That > was certainly part of the "teach me everything you know" part > -- much to > Xena's chagrin. It was a big part of her attraction to Xena, > which she mentioned > to her sister in the premier ep and tried to emulate as early > "Dreamworker." > She even learned her first fighting skills independently of > Xena (from the > Amazons) -- as well as made her first kill all on her own. > True, traveling with > Xena accelerated Gabrielle's development in that area, > dampened only by her > "reverance for life." I agree that wasn't Xena's intent, but > I do believe it > was Gabrielle's, regardless of her initial naivete. Certainly Gabrielle asked -- begged -- Xena to teach her everything she knew, but as you say it was a very naive Gabrielle making that request. By the end of Dreamworker, at least, she had come to realize otherwise, I think. Her reluctance to take arms was also demonstrated in Hooves and Harlots -- they sought to teach her, she didn't seek it from them. Even her defense of her home in The Prodigal, albeit done with a warrior's cunning, was done (by her) without arms. It was Meleager who provided the arms and the lethality. Her own reactions in Callisto were, in the end, shocking to her. So, yes, in some sense, she initially wanted to be a warrior like Xena - -- she saw the glamour of it, as Xena pointed out in The Price. But that desire died very quickly in the light of reality (now there's a concept...), I maintain. And making her first kill -- that had nothing to do with warrior training. Almost the exact opposite, in a way. > Second, I definitely see Gabrielle as a teacher herself (Xena > being her most > notable "student"), which she was even in the earliest > stages. In the end, I > saw her as more of a "complete" warrior for good -- able to > use and teach a > variety of skills (not all physical) to fight for a better > world. Some of that > she had on her own and some of it she learned from Xena. As > you say, she was > different from Xena, which is what made them such great > mentors for each > other. I do think Gabrielle tended to be less "personal" in > her approach, in terms > of speaking of ideals in a general way. However, I was left > with the feeling > that she now had the confidence and mantle to become more > like Xena, Lao Ma > and her own Amazon teachers in terms of guiding others in a > more direct way. Being telegraphic has its cost; here I didn't make my meaning clear. I meant mentoring strictly in arms. Yes, Gabrielle mentored Xena, but (save for -- just maybe -- Chakram) Gabrielle did not teach Xena to fight. Gabrielle taught others, too. But I just can't see her taking on a student in the same way Xena took her on. It could be just my image of G as X's sidekick, but I think not -- it is more a matter of very different outlooks. I think Gab would train someone else to approach problems from the diplomatic side, rather than the martial, to a degree even more pronounced than she (at the end of the series) does herself. She's learned how hard it is to draw the line between the two; I doubt she'd care to have to make that distinction clear to another, given what it cost her to learn it. Argh -- I know it when I see it, I just can't describe it... Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:22:03 -0500 From: Stephanie Wilson Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Gina Torres @ Cannes Thanks for the link. Gina was in Matrix Reloaded (wee!) but only for a couple of minutes. But she had a couple of lines, got a medium close-up, go to flash a smile, so it was all good. And she looked fab. Anyone catch her on Angel? At 06:40 PM 5/27/2003 -0400, mirrordrum wrote: >whoa! we had just watched bbc america news and "talking movies" followed. >since it was about cannes this year i thought i'd catch a glim. they were >doing the pre-show overviewy thing. you know, sunbathers, strollers, >idlers and stars. in a line up of very glam stars i saw a black woman i >thought i recognized. very swank, very glamorous indeed. peeled back hair >and that slightly haughty cleo expression. actually couldn't place her for >a few minutes. then i realized by the gods it's GT, apparently there for >the showing of matrix reloaded! she looks *mah*velous, dahlings. > >just a mention on the bbc site but if you're interested, here 'tis: > >http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/news/entertainment/030522_matrix.shtml > >md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:18:04 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: When Fates Collide Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:41:11 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com "Not to mention making sure Xena doesn't help get him stabbed in the back. I wonder if he really thinks that was out of revenge, because of his earlier betrayal. Yeah, he'd be that egotistical." Well for Caesar everything is about him, of course. Let's face it Xena did want revenge for Caesar's betrayal - that's what The Deliverer was all about. Certainly Caesar would be right that his betrayal did cause Xena to take a great deal of delight in foiling his plans. > << They fight but Alti gets her hands around Xena's throat and the pain > from Xena's past comes back to her. For Xena the flashes are painful but > also > puzzling; they aren't from the past she experienced in this life. >> I certainly hope you have a theory for this, o ye of the dancing chakram. Of course I do - I think. The wizard did it - really. Alti's power can bridge both space and time and there is no reason it can't also bridge dimensions. The universe that existed before Caesar did his edit actually existed - the experiences of those who lived in that time happened in real space and time. I gather what Caesar did was to create another reality that existed after the previous reality existed. Perhaps the memories of that previous existance are still hanging out there in the nether world. What Alti's power did was to tap into those memories and perhaps those memories were more real than those that existed in Caesar's world. Afterall Caesar's construct wasn't perfect - he had memories from his previous life. Therefore it could be possible that others also had the same kind of memories but they may have had no idea what they were. I think Gabrielle had memories of her alternate life but she thought of them as an artistic inspiration. Xena may have also had some kind of residual memory thus her reaction upon seeing Gabrielle and her kindness to Joxer when his child was sick. Joxer also took great risks to help Gabrielle a stranger to him and despite his loyality to Xena, helping some one who was apparently on Caesar's hit list was a big risk for a Roman soldier. Was this just Joxer's natural kindness or was it a manifestation of the friendship he had for Gabrielle in the other reality. So perhaps what was happening was that everyone in Caesar's world had some inkling that something wasn't quite right. "I loved the irony in that "gods forsaken world," seeing as how Xena helped that process along." Well the gods should have still existed in Caesar's world. Xena never killed them. In fact there was no big sleep here so we are probably in the same time period in which Ides took place. So gods have not forsaken the world, but are they aware of Caesar's manipulation? That's an interesting thought and something to speculate about "Why "in this world"? I'm assuming you mean the subtext is maintext here. Do you see something special in this alternate reality that fosters this,or are you simply meaning it's there more than in other eps?" Well I certainly think that in this script subtext is maintext but I don't think I meant that exactly. What I am talking about is that in this universe Xena is more willing to express her feelings. The "real" Xena has a very hard time verbally expressing her feelings for Gabrielle for a whole number of reasons related to her past. Xena fears that people she cares for and loves will be hurt because of her so I think she tries not to acknowledge the love she has out fear that there will be dire consequences for those she loves and even for herself. In Caesar's world Xena is more emotionally secure perhaps a bit confused by now but secure. Her marriage may not have been blissful but it wasn't a disaster. She loved Caesar at one time and that love was rewarded with security, power, and wealth. Love wasn't dangerous - it didn't lead to death and betrayal. In this world love was a possitive thing for Xena and thus she was able to express it more openly here. "Heh, I'll let cr take this one. I'm not implying who is or isn't a subtexter. I'm thinking the "best friend" theory may be wounded here but not necessarily killed." Well maybe we can still get away with romantic friendship here but I think we are way beyond "let's go to the mall" girlfriends here. When Gabrielle says "I have written about love but never known it till now" that just isn't something best buddies say to one another. When Xena says to Gabrielle just as she is about be executed "I'll love you forever" I just don't see this a simple friendship. I think in this episode Xena and Gabrielle love one another in a romantic way period. There is no other explanation for their actions. "Gods I loved that scene." (Referring to X & G' reunion in the woods) Yes I loved it the first time I saw it and wasn't confused by it as some where. It is natural for both women to be stunned by what happened; they have jsut lived a lifetime in another reality and returned from it with all their memories. I also liked the idea that were goind to pretend like it was no bif deal and try their best to be flippent about it. They are trying thier best to cool eventhough they are probably shaken to their very core. "You go, girl! Get those scoffers good!" Well I'm awaitin' for them. They must be sharpening their scoffing skills. "Did you see her becoming more her "old" self after she saw the visions of her past? Or was she still reacting as the Xena produced in the new timeline?" I think Xena's defiance is a part of her personality. She now knows she has been betrayed not just now but for years and that utter contempt for Caesar is born anew. I think her actions could be seen as the "old" Xena but I think Xena will be Xena in any time line. "Oh, good point! Again, I wondered if she'd taken on the Gabrielle of Alti's visions in the end, but maybe she was calling on the toughness she already had." I think Gabrielle is tough and perhaps a bit more independant in this time line than in the real one. Alti did show her a life where she certainly was not an intellectural but soem some one who could fight back physically. This may have inspired her to confront the Fates but I think that was always in her. Alti just showed that she had that will. I don't think the Xena and Gabrielle in Caesar's time line are at heart any different than the X & G of the real time line. Their experiences were different and how their persoanlities manifested themselves was different but their character stays the same - if that makes sense. I believe that we are all born with inherent peronality traits - it is our enviroment that determines how those traits manifest themselves. For example we may have a quick temper - if live in an environment where anger and violence is rewarded that temper is nurtured and becomes a dominate personality trait but if we live in an environment that trait is frowned upon we try to temper it and perhaps try to channel it in some positive manner. That personality trait will always exist but whether it becomes a major or minor flaw in our character is dependent in large part to our experiences and environment. "Okay, I'm still waiting for your theory on these recovered memories of something that didn't happen. "Clones" all over again, except no (Ithink)scientifice stuff to rely on." See above i.e. the wizard did it > "I'm not sure that would've worked either. Xena's deep interest was clear. And Caesar must've freaked once he realized the same threads were appearing as in the past. If he sent Gabs away, those threads might reunite. He may have seen his only option as killing her. However, He could've at least tried to send Xena off on some errand and disposed of Gabs while her protector was away." Perhaps there was no other way out. I still thing I would have waited to see if either woman pursued the relationship. I just think it was so sloppy a solution. Perhaps if Caesar was really clever he just could have arranged an acident- whoops Gabby slipped off her balcony. "I thought he meant to kill Gabs all along. You didn't?" Yes I think he probably lied to Xena. I just thought now was the time to cut his loses and leave well enough alone. Instead he proved to Xena that he couldn't be trusted in any more in this lifetime as in the other. This is assuming that he actually wanted to salavge his relationship with Xena at this time. I think perhaps he is at the point of deciding Xena was just too dangerous to keep around. Perhaps he thinks he has outfoxed his destiny. He can now get rid of Xena if he kills Brutus whom he sees as his only threat after his wife. He is of course wrong by killing Xena and Brutus he has no one standing between him and Alti. Alti seeing Caesar's ally dead and Xena, her biggest rival for power about to be dead, Alti moves against Caesar. Caesar once again causes his own downfall. > I'm rubbing my hands together in anticipation. Don't let her get away with that circuitous logic -- "It's bad." Why? "Because it's bad." Tsk tsk. But don't let her side track you too long from my questions. She promised me in Pasadena that she had a big post someway out there. I here waiting and I'm sure she'll post as soon as she stops hyperventilating. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:38:44 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram In a message dated 5/28/03 8:16:41 AM Central Daylight Time, ribaud@bnl.gov writes: <> Okay, how about calling her a "reluctant" warrior? I'm not sure what concept Gabs had of "warrior," but I always saw her as being one in spirit, in terms of desire to defend others and support Xena in promoting the Greater Good. Also, while it's true she didn't want to use any of the more lethal weapons the Amazons showed her, her eyes lit up at the staff. As Steve Sears (who picked that) said, it was an excellent defensive weapon, even if it could also be used to seriously hurt or kill. She used it with quite a bit of relish and pride as she gained expertise. This is why I believe -- naive as she was in the beginning -- she retained her original desire to be a "student" of Xena's warrior ways. << And making her first kill -- that had nothing to do with warrior training. Almost the exact opposite, in a way. >> I'd be interested to hear why you say that. To me, a price Gabrielle paid for traveling with Xena was including lethal intent in her arsenal of responses. When she first hid that breast dagger in her bosom and picked up a sword in "Dreamworker," she had no idea of the consequences. Xena's first lesson to her was to rely on talking first (Gabs' strong suit), pitting the enemy against themselves and running if necessary - all of which Gabrielle used to survive the trials she was put through until Xena came to the rescue. I agree that her first instinct was not offensive (in the physical sense). She couldn't kill Callisto, and even in the seemingly hopeless situation shown in "The Price," she turned to compassion and risking her own life to care for the enemy. She did not have her staff with her when she killed Meridian. I always felt that scenario was more for dramatic purposes, to set up the whole Dahak thing and Rift. Still, I think one of the points was also to show that Gabrielle had become so used to physical responses, so used to death, that she didn't hesitate to kill when she thought an innocent person's life was at stake. She tells Xena it wasn't an accident, that she used the knife knowing the probable consequences. Gabs was always ready to put her life in danger for others, but had gone from the defiant "Take me!" (instead of the other villagers) and bopping slavers over the head we see in the premier ep, to choosing the very response she'd resisted for so long. I don't believe her motivations had changed, so much that the habits and mindset of being a warrior had changed her acceptance of a new response. << I meant mentoring strictly in arms. Yes, Gabrielle mentored Xena, but (save for -- just maybe -- Chakram) Gabrielle did not teach Xena to fight. >> Ah. << I think Gab would train someone else to approach problems from the diplomatic side, rather than the martial, to a degree even more pronounced than she (at the end of the series) does herself. She's learned how hard it is to draw the line between the two; I doubt she'd care to have to make that distinction clear to another, given what it cost her to learn it. >> What's interesting about that is that Xena also started out showing how to solve problems without fighting, especially when innocent nonwarriors were involved. Heck, she let herself be captured when she didn't want to hurt them. She showed time and again that fighting should be the last resort. But it was like Amarice told her in "End Game" -- Xena didn't use talking to take Pompey's head off. It's the old "Do as I say, not as I do" conundrum. Yes, Gabs would most likely try to demonstrate the "high ground," as she did when Tara first started antagonizing her. But the girl forced her to use (in Xena's words) "tough love" with a staff. She'd probably teach someone to defend herself, but without assurance that this wouldn't escalate into something more offensive. I agree it's hard to draw that line, to live with wolves and not become one. I just can't see Gabs turning away from someone just because of the difficulty involved in balancing physical responses with verbal ones. I could definitely see her teaching young Amazons the full range of ways to deal with something -- just as Xena had taught her. << Argh -- I know it when I see it, I just can't describe it... >> LOL! Maybe because those two characters just refuse to cooperate with whatever we say about them? Heh, Gabs especially, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #147 **************************************