From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #145 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, May 27 2003 Volume 03 : Number 145 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] The Chakram [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143 [IfeRae@aol.co] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena reviews [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Scorpion King [Trek4u269@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143 [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Chakram [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] 'There are thousands more like me' [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram ["Ribaud, L] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram [Stephanie Wilson ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram [IfeRae] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:41:04 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Chakram In a message dated 5/26/2003 10:12:45 PM Central Daylight Time, d.t.miller@juno.com writes: > I'm just glad Rob never had it talk. > It would been like when Green Lantern had > conversations with his power ring. > Shhhh! We don't wanna give Certain People any more ideas. Next thing we'll be discussing whether there were variations in the "whoosh" sound and, if so, if that was its form of vocabulary, indicating intelligent discourse. Xena blew on it once. At least, that's what *I* thought. Certain People may cite that as "proof" of verbal communication between Xena and her chaky. Oh, and don't feel too bad about not knowing what the heck this thread is about. I'm lost, and I *think* I started it. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:41:08 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143 In a message dated 5/26/2003 6:14:53 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > >To me, these were all due signs of Xena's evolution, in terms of giving > >herself a break, starting to accept herself as someone who could be the > kind of > >teacher she became in Sin Trade. Even in the end, I never doubted Xena > could be > >bad, selfish, foolish or any of her other human flaws. But I was equally > sure > >that she'd come to find a measure of peace and pride in the good in her. > And > >she deserved it, as she sure as Hades worked hard enough for it. > > > >You say "bragging." I say "statement of fact." So there! > > > >- -- Ife > > > I have to agree with Ife here. Xena did a good thing here and she is proud > of herself when she saves the idot from drowning. Look there was time when > she would have let the sucker drown but she has moved away from that. She's > damn proud of that change and she acknowledges it. Gabrielle is surprised > not that Xena says that about herself but surprised that she finally > recognizes the nobility that is within herself. > > Oh, bless you! I take back any snide remarks you may read about the chaky thread. BTW, I think Gabrielle is pleasantly surprised by both the recognition and the verbalization. - -- Ife (anticipating with unseemly glee KT's expected sputtering at your Fates review) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:41:07 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena reviews In a message dated 5/26/2003 9:02:19 PM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > Ah, tadpole, one can come to the right answer through many paths. A > central truth radiates many strings to follow to its heart. >> Where are those scissors? I had them a minute ago. I need them. For cutting, not stabbing (as attractive as the latter may be). > Nope. Xena has vast contempt for people who prey upon others. Exactly > because that was her sin. She's not into forgiveness -- the woman wants > atonement. Listen to the contempt in her voice when she says to Gabrielle > in Greater Good about why they're fighting the bad guy. "It's not about > me. It's about these people. That's why we're here. People like this > used to be my victims. I keep that in mind every time we come up against > a warlord like Talmadeus." And Macon in Tsunami--he tries to attack and > kill the weak ones in the group because they're "using up his air". LOL!>> Again, Macon was not on par with Talmadeus, Cortes or the real baddies Xena despised. In this life-death situation, he didn't "prey" on anybody any more than perfectly nice people who trample each other when they panic during a fire. I'm not saying he was a nice person, but his fear was no more dangerous than that of the boy (whose guilt paralyzed him and anger caused him to lose control) or the rich guy who probably would've wanted to sacrifice the prisoners if he hadn't himself been injured. I'm not talking about forgiveness. I'm saying Xena distinguished between run of the mill lowlifes and those who profitted off the suffering of countless people just because. > > While the atoning Xena cannot leave anyone to die (except Callisto), she > still loathes people like her. That's why she fights against them. And > she certainly doesn't consider herself better than them. >> If she had walked away from Macon without answering him, that would've been the same as saying, "You're not worth the time of day." Which means, "You're not worth *my* time." Which means, "I have better things to do." Instead, she did give him the time of day to the best of her ability, despite his cluelessness. *Of course* Xena realized she had better things to do, or else she wouldn't have been looking for ways to save people. Someone could interpret that as, "She thinks she's too good for (better than) me." Again, I say she meant, "I expect the best of myself. I expect of you what you expect of yourself, which is nothing." We'll just have to disagree (again) on that, as I fail to see how that's bragging. > > I couldn't have stood much > >more of Gabrielle being the apologist, cheerleader and mouthpiece for > Xena's > >goodness. > > > Wow--it continued right through to the end. (Except for parts of season > four or when Gab was feeling bitchy.) Must have driven you nuts, eh? >> No, because Xena started speaking for herself. She was willing to take others under her wing -- and give them a chance -- from the Dirty Half Dozen, to Tara, to the Northern Amazons, etc.. In telling them they could change or do better, she was essentially affirming her own ability to do so -- which is not the same as forgiving herself. It was so ironic to me in Been There that the young man said he was waiting for a hero to come, and she says, "When you saw me, why didn't you say something?" He says he was waiting for somebody like Hercules. True, this was humorous, but she did see herself as someone who could fix things for the better. In Sin Trade, she says she has her own light now and proceeds to become a mentor of the young Amazons without Gabrielle. In the later seasons, she even becomes Gabrielle, in terms of giving folks a chance when Gabrielle is reluctant. Frankly, I didn't see that much self-loathing after season 1. I saw huge regret and sense of responsibility, as well as recognition that she was capable of backsliding. But I saw much more focus on the positive and future, than on the negatives of the past. > I loved that we'd get these little glimmers of Xena showing awareness > >of being more than a piece of crap herself. This was at the end of the > third > >season, after they'd gone through the rift and she'd given her little > speech > >to Tara about being able to recreate yourself. > > > And then walks out of the temple refusing to accept forgiveness from a > jar. I LOVE that moment of Xena walking lonely out into the blazing > sun--it is SO perfect. She's STILL working on making up for her rotten > past and has the honor and nobility to not accept the easy way out. << Agreed. In AFIN, Akemi's spirit says Xena has redeemed herself, but Xena just says, "We'll meet again." She expected more (better) from herself even in the end. > > > I loved the slight surprise on > >Gabrielle's face when would verbalize what Gabrielle had become accustomed > to > >saying. We talk about the changes Xena saw in Gabrielle. Well, Gabrielle > saw > >changes in Xena too. > > > > I never noticed that. Gabrielle HOPED to see changes in Xena. I don't > remember ever seeing her reflect the surprise you mention.>> Watch Tsunami and Forgiven again. Yes, Gabrielle hoped to see that, but that doesn't mean she wasn't a little surprised to hear Xena verbalize it, or chagrined when it happened when Gabrielle disagreed. > > Speaking of noticing odd Gabrielle moments, I remember that there was one > inexplicable bit in Past Imperfect to me. One of the soldiers is seeing > Xena fight for the first time at the dam and he says, "She's amazing". > Gabrielle gets the strangest look on her face. She almost looks > surprised. I don't know if she wants to argue that point like she's > thinking, "That's what YOU think--HA!" or what. >> Yes, that struck me too at the time. I got the impression she was thinking about Xena's reaction to Alti's vision and Xena's focus on protecting Gabrielle at all cost. Xena was trying to draw out an ambush. Under normal circumstances, Gabrielle wouldn't be surprised at that. But Xena's left Gabrielle in relative safety, which she'd been trying to do the whole time. I think at that point Gabrielle was questioning Xena's motives for such a decision. There might have been a slight "yeah, she's amazing all right -- leaving me behind again while she puts herself in danger," from that standpoint. > And I say I'm bored with this thread. Tsunami is one of my least favorite > Xena-present eps. In fact it was a milestone to me that during the first > rerun, I actually went to bed instead of watching it again. That had > NEVER happened before. It's a dumb story, it's a heavy-handed preachy > story and it's got Xena bragging on her good character. SNORT! Even > Autolycus couldn't save this one for me. Blech. I think it's one of > Manheim's worst. And I can't believe you got me to spend so much time > talking about it...heh. >> Excellent! Payback at last! Seriously, though, it is maddening how they'd drop little things in weaker or humorous eps. I thought there were some key moments in "Dirty Half Dozen," "Forgiven," "King Con," and a few others I rarely saw much discussion about. Might have been some gems in the Xenalite eps, too, but we know how much I rewatch those. > > > KT > Oh gods--and now Cheryl wants to try to make me discuss FATES! > ARRRRGHHHHHH!!!!!!! >> Yes! I saw she had that up next! A little thrill went through me, realizing how much you would love that. I might just sit back and enjoy. I'll keep my fingers crossed that I can read it and keep my fingers crossed, as opposed to typing. Heh. > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 02:41:11 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] When Fates Collide This is one of my favorite episodes.>> Didya see that, KT? One of her *favorite* eps. (Darn! I was endeavoring to keep my mouth shut. So much for that.) << He has escaped not just to get out of a lower class neighborhood but also to correct the one great error of his past - his betrayal of Xena. He is going to rewrite history and his past at the most crucial moment of his life by taking up Xena's offer. He will partner with Xena and rule the world. >> Not to mention making sure Xena doesn't help get him stabbed in the back. I wonder if he really thinks that was out of revenge, because of his earlier betrayal. Yeah, he'd be that egotistical. > everyone relaxes - obviously Xena often greets her husband with arrows.>> Too bad she missed. << > The play is Fallen > Angle and is apparently about lovers who have overcome death to be together > (it seems a bit familiar to Xena fans everywhere). Although Caesar is > bored, > it isn't about him after all (well it is about him, he just doesn't know > it), > and Alti couldn't care less about love, Xena, however, is fascinated by the > play. >> I love Alti's bored look. > << They fight but Alti gets her hands around Xena's throat and the pain > from Xena's past comes back to her. For Xena the flashes are painful but > also > puzzling; they aren't from the past she experienced in this life. >> I certainly hope you have a theory for this, o ye of the dancing chakram. > Xena now takes on the guards. She kills a number of them but she is > finally > brought down by two cross bowmen (arrows are just going to be the death of > that girl). >> LOL! Ya think? > << Xena confirms that Caesar has some how manipulated their fate to give > them this "gods forsaken world'. >> I loved the irony in that "gods forsaken world," seeing as how Xena helped that process along. They express their > love for one another. In this world Xena can openly > express her love for > Gabrielle. There are no euphemisms; no "you are the best thing in my life". > Xena says clearly that she will love Gabrielle forever. >> Why "in this world"? I'm assuming you mean the subtext is maintext here. Do you see something special in this alternate reality that fosters this, or are you simply meaning it's there more than in other eps? <<> There is an emotional farewell > (Kleenexes for subtextors and I don't what the heck the non-subtextors do > now > since we pretty much have shot the best friend and sister theory in the head > about now). >> Heh, I'll let cr take this one. I'm not implying who is or isn't a subtexter. I'm thinking the "best friend" theory may be wounded here but not necessarily killed. > The loom burns and suddenly there is a great cosmic explosion. In a foggy > woods, Gabrielle now dressed in her regular sixth season costume appears > lost. > Suddenly out of the fog rides Xena on Argo. Both women although a bit > stunned > seem their old selves. >> Gods I loved that scene. > > This is to be a great episode. Oh I hear the scoffs from some quarters but > I > love this episode. >> You go, girl! Get those scoffers good! > Also I think Fulgate hasn't soften Xena too much and there is still a > toughness to her. When Caesar captures her she can still spit in his eye as > she faces death. >> Did you see her becoming more her "old" self after she saw the visions of her past? Or was she still reacting as the Xena produced in the new timeline? > Gabrielle too has changed. Yes she is still a writer and successful one > but > there is a difference in her too. Gabrielle is a bit tougher than we might > expect a gentle playwright to be. She must have an inner core of strength. > Somehow she got herself out of Potadeia and out of her arranged marriage. > She > made her way to Athens where she became successful and famous. She got > herself a villa in Greece and tours the world with her plays. She is not > the > meek playwright she seems.>> Oh, good point! Again, I wondered if she'd taken on the Gabrielle of Alti's visions in the end, but maybe she was calling on the toughness she already had. > I also like the fact that the Gabrielle's play is an episode from her > life > with Xena. At the reception that evening Gabrielle says that the stories > she > writes seem to just come to her. I rather like the idea that Gabrielle has > been writing about her adventures with Xena for years. That her stories are > half remembered memories from a past she never had. So when she meets Xena > it > isn't the meeting of strangers. Gabrielle may not consciously know Xena but > on a subconscious level she does know this person and she has been writing > about her for years.>> Okay, I'm still waiting for your theory on these recovered memories of something that didn't happen. "Clones" all over again, except no (I think) scientifice stuff to rely on. > > I do have criticisms of this episode. I don't like the way Caesar's > character > is written. I can't see Caesar making the mistake of arresting Gabrielle. > He > knows that Xena is interested in the bard and that she may be a potential > danger. The danger however lies in Xena developing some kind of > relationship > with Gabrielle. My thinking would have been to keep Xena away from > Gabrielle > and make sure Gabrielle gets back to Greece as soon as possible.>> I'm not sure that would've worked either. Xena's deep interest was clear. And Caesar must've freaked once he realized the same threads were appearing as in the past. If he sent Gabs away, those threads might reunite. He may have seen his only option as killing her. However, He could've at least tried to send Xena off on some errand and disposed of Gabs while her protector was away. > Once the truth is revealed Caesar still can't let things rest. > He has to try to kill Gabrielle and this leads to the break with Xena. >> I thought he meant to kill Gabs all along. You didn't? > > Well I can't wait to hear comments especially from KT. KT just about had > the > vapors when she heard Fulgate was writing a Xena movies script so I expect > to > see some scathing comments soon. >> I'm rubbing my hands together in anticipation. Don't let her get away with that circuitous logic -- "It's bad." Why? "Because it's bad." Tsk tsk. But don't let her side track you too long from my questions. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 04:00:16 EDT From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Scorpion King 1. Universal did the same schtick with all of it's action pack movie/tv shows. Vanishing son, hercules, etc. Amazons of course have been around in many fantasy movies and tv shows. 2. Duane Johnson aka the rock. Hawaiian (he is an "island boy" as he calls himself and other polynesian wrestlers) In a message dated 5/26/03 3:32:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > watched the Scorpion King this weekend which I liked as a popcorn movie. > Being A Universal flick I though I would count Xena-like occurances and I > fond > some. There was fire spitting, arrow catching and what appeared to be > Amazons > too. Now I'm not saying these are Xena homages but Xena pieces of business > seem to show up in Univeral adventure flicks often enough to make me wonder. > So perhaps Yniversal should just get off the stick and give us the real > thing. > There is one non-Xena question. What is The Rock's real name and is he a > native American? I thought he was good and was surprised at the humor he > brought to the role. > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:00:00 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram On Tuesday 27 May 2003 10:33, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > It is interesting that the chakram cut her in The Ring. I will try to work > this into my theory. Xena's curse was that she would lose her essence and > thus she loses all sense of self. I think at this point she simply forgot > how to hold it. (snip) The way I saw it, Xena 'lost' her memory and her identity, so she not only forgot how to hold the chacky safely, but also lost any mental control she might have had over it. And on the chacky's part, any sense the chacky might have had that she was its 'owner', would have gone. Therefore she just cut herself in the usual way. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:04:30 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #143 On Tuesday 27 May 2003 11:20, Cheryl Ande wrote: > And > > > she deserved it, as she sure as Hades worked hard enough for it. > > > > You say "bragging." I say "statement of fact." So there! > > > > - -- Ife > > I have to agree with Ife here. Xena did a good thing here and she is proud > of herself when she saves the idot from drowning. Look there was time when > she would have let the sucker drown but she has moved away from that. > She's damn proud of that change and she acknowledges it. Gabrielle is > surprised not that Xena says that about herself but surprised that she > finally recognizes the nobility that is within herself. > > CherylA I think I hafta agree with KT. It just sounds rather pretentious in its phrasing. Xena might say it but not in those words, IMO. (We're talking about "From you - nothing. From me, nothing less" in case everyone's forgotten). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:20:08 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena reviews On Tuesday 27 May 2003 14:00, KTL wrote: > KT > Oh gods--and now Cheryl wants to try to make me discuss FATES! > ARRRRGHHHHHH!!!!!!! I knew you'd say that. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:36:14 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Chakram On Monday 26 May 2003 05:45, KTL wrote: > Yeah--that sounds right also because it is a magical weapon. But then why > did it cut her in Valkyrie? Xena had lost all sense of herself but the > Chakram hadn't. OR was the chakram only bound to the dark side of Xena? > Which of course had disappeared in this ep also. When Xena lost her sense of self, the chacky couldn't tell who she was. Simple. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:02:00 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram On Tuesday 27 May 2003 07:23, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > IfeRae wrote: > > >When Diana launched it, since she had no idea how to control it, the > > > > chacky > > > > >had no target 'in mind' so just switched off its internal guidance and > > >bounced off whatever happened to be in the way.>> > > Um, no, that wasn't me. "Internal guidance" suggests maybe that was cr. > You'd be right :) > > Nah the chaky was just having a bit of fun. It bounced around, whacked > > the crown off the kings head and then stuck in the tree. It probably was > > just miffed Xena loaned it out without asking permission. > > > > CherylA > > I found it amusing that the chaky managed to take kingy down a peg without > Diana even aware of his presence. According to you and cr, this might > suggest that Diana had some repressed resentment toward Pops, which the > chaky picked up on. Ummm, no. Not from me, anyway. All I'll suggest is that Diana didn't have a clue how to control it so her shot was random. Like a beginner with a gun. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:16:31 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] 'There are thousands more like me' On Monday 26 May 2003 05:09, KTL wrote: > > Sorry, KT, I can't agree with you. The chakram *definitely* has > > super-normal powers. I'll list just a few of them: > > > > 1. Its ability to change its edge sharpness - it bounces off some > > surfaces and, on other occasions, cuts into them. I could give dozens > > of examples. > > It all depends upon how you throw it. No. That can't account for it. I'm sure of that. > > 3. As an extension of this, there's its ability to cruise around in > > 'stand-off' mode until required - most notably when it took out the > > Furies in Coming Home. > > I LOVE that bit--it was so furken funny. I could just imagine the Chakram > pinging around out there, pretending it was a pin ball, racking up points, > scoring huge hits and then coming home (so to speak) when it needed to. Hey, I like that! But wouldn't somebody (e.g. the Furies) have noticed this fast-moving shiny thing in the background going boing-boing-ting ? > > 4. There was the way it broke when it hit Xena in Ides, when previously > > it had survived regular repeated contact with stone and metal. Okay, it > > *may* have been harbouring a slowly-spreading fatigue crack and just > > happened to break at that moment quite by chance - but it hardly seems > > likely. In fact it would have to be already broken right through on > > side of the 'ring' and cracked through most of the other side - this > > would have been very obvious to anyone handling it. It would even sound > > wrong. > > No again, science is immaterial. It apparently broke because it "broke" > Xena. Yes, precisely. All I'm saying is, the possibility of it breaking at that moment purely by chance, is virtually nil. Therefore there must be some other 'reason' for it. > Now did it break because Callisto had been warned by Mephistopheles > not to hurt Xena physically when he sent her back to earth for the > "temptation of Xena" (parallelling the temptation of Christ by Satan) and > with this act she broke that agreement? Was his power of sending a spirit > to earth also great enough to cause the chakram to destruct when Callisto > broke the rules? This is such a defining moment of the series to me--I > really wish SOMEONE would ask Rob and RJ why this happened. Great > "theater" though... That's an interesting possibility, though I prefer the 'it broke because it damaged Xena' line of thought. Intriguing, though. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:51:56 -0500 From: Stephanie Wilson Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Chakram At 10:05 AM 5/25/2003 -0800, KTL wrote: > > Well, I would originally have preferred it had the chacky been 'just a > > weapon'. But it evolved beyond that - the powers it shows - most notably > > in 'Coming Home' - are such that that theory became gradually untenable. > > It was, at the least, an 'intelligent' weapon, able to hover around and > home > > in on the Furies. (And, in FIN, able to score a direct hit on the general > > even though Gabs had, presumably, no practice at throwing it and seemed > very > > surprised at the result). > > > > cr > >Oooooooo, now THAT'S a very kewl thought. That the CHAKRAM wanted revenge >for the physical death of Xena. And helped Gabrielle (who also wanted >revenge upon him) so they both could get what they want. > >OR that the Chakram's magical powers made this happen. Either way, I very >much like this concept of the Chakram being active in the taking Xena's >murderer out. (Even though Xena had LET him kill her...) > >KT Ohh... here all this time I thought it was more like in Been There, Done That, with the angles and the ricochets and the planning and the plotting! .... S. (did anyone else just think Simpsons?) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:28:00 -0400 From: "Ribaud, Lynn" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram cr wrote: > Hmmm. Actually, that's not what I meant. I would > interpret it that the > chacky 'responded' to Xena's control in some quasi-magical > way, and when Xena > died, Gabby in a sense inherited Xena's warrior powers (I'm > not putting this > very well, and personally I don't care for the idea of > *anyone* 'taking over' > from Xena, and that includes Gabby, but I think TPTB intended that > interpretation). So the chacky responded to Gabby's > control the same way > it had Xena's, much to Gabs' surprise. I also don't like the idea of Gabrielle "taking over" from Xena, in the sense of replacing her. But I feel this wasn't TPTB's meaning. To me, it was more the idea of Gabrielle carrying on in Xena's tradition (OK, a one-person tradition...). I see it in the light of academic succession, if you will. Who remembers the mentors of, say, Einstein or Heisenberg? And yet neither was a genius sui generis. In fact, both needed help with their mathematics. In the same way, Gabs will never *be* Xena -- she simply doesn't have the same motivations, questions of mystical abilities aside. Gabrielle has been down roads that illuminate Xena's path for her -- but she hasn't been on that path herself. Just consider Xena's original motivation - -- to atone for her past. Gabrielle certainly has known the dark side -- the Rift makes that clear, if nothing else has done -- but she was never in the thrall of the dark, nor on the side of the dark so willfully, as had been Xena. There are other ways the two obviously -- to me -- differ. I just can't see Gabs mentoring someone in the way Xena did her. If nothing else, the mentoring between X and G was just too personal to be repeated. Gabrielle came to be a good warrior not because that was her intent (or Xena's) but because it was a fairly direct (if not straight-forward) consequence of her traveling with Xena. Academic succession works as a model for me, but I'm hard pressed to give examples that are familiar. One of the clearest to me is that of I.I. Rabi and his student Norman Ramsey. The two made their marks in the same field -- atomic physics, and specifically, the interaction of atoms and microwaves -- and both earned Nobel prizes (and I do mean 'earned') for their work. But Ramsey was not Rabi's clone -- he went on from what Rabi had taught him. (Ramsey essentially invented atomic clocks, for one thing, and I think Rabi was the better theorist -- Ramsey's mark was much more in experiment.) Alas, theirs are hardly names on everyone's tongues. Come to think of it -- this is a better analogy than I'd first thought. Both Ramsey and Rabi used the same tools -- microwave spectroscopy of atoms -- in their work, just as Gabrielle has, in some sense, inherited the chakram. On a similarly geeky note -- sometimes the typos I see on the list are just too good to pass up. In her review of Fates, Cheryl Ande speaks of Xena's "semimetal" side. Oh, yes, I know what was meant. But the word has a very different -- and very precise -- meaning to me. I'm not sure any part of Xena was 'semimetal' -- I'd hate to do the band calculation to find out... Not even sure Xena is sufficiently ordered... Wondering what typos I've left in... Lynn Ribaud ribaud@bnl.gov ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:22:42 -0500 From: Stephanie Wilson Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Chakram At 12:02 PM 5/28/2003 +1200, cr wrote: >On Tuesday 27 May 2003 07:23, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > > > IfeRae wrote: > > > >When Diana launched it, since she had no idea how to control it, the > > > > > > chacky > > > > > > >had no target 'in mind' so just switched off its internal guidance and > > > >bounced off whatever happened to be in the way.>> > > > > Um, no, that wasn't me. "Internal guidance" suggests maybe that was cr. > > > >You'd be right :) > > > > Nah the chaky was just having a bit of fun. It bounced around, whacked > > > the crown off the kings head and then stuck in the tree. It probably was > > > just miffed Xena loaned it out without asking permission. > > > > > > CherylA > > > > I found it amusing that the chaky managed to take kingy down a peg without > > Diana even aware of his presence. According to you and cr, this might > > suggest that Diana had some repressed resentment toward Pops, which the > > chaky picked up on. > >Ummm, no. Not from me, anyway. All I'll suggest is that Diana didn't >have a clue how to control it so her shot was random. Like a beginner with >a gun. > >cr I know I can't throw a gun for anything. *g* But seriously. I've been watching this thread bounce around and the gun thing is a good analogy. I've always figured that it was always a skill, to be able to throw and catch the Chakram, that took considerable effort to learn to do very well. Like firing a gun. But then you have to explain how Callisto could, without any backstory on it, and how Gabrielle could without any tutelage (none that I remember seeing, anyway), et cetera. I've also just always figured there was some far-off tree we never saw that Xena always used to ricochet the thing off of. *s* However. Lao Ma taught Xena that anything can be used as a weapon, and she demonstrated it with a harmless looking hair pin, but learning how to control that weapon, and more importantly the person wielding it, was the art. In my thinking, it has less to do with the Chakram being sentient or programmable, and more to do with the user's ability to not just be "good" at it but so good that it becomes an extension of themselves. That may be spiritual in some way, but it's my best explanation. For now. :) S. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:56:19 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Students vs. Replacements, was The Chakram In a message dated 5/27/03 9:29:10 AM Central Daylight Time, ribaud@bnl.gov writes: << I also don't like the idea of Gabrielle "taking over" from Xena, in the sense of replacing her. But I feel this wasn't TPTB's meaning. To me, it was more the idea of Gabrielle carrying on in Xena's tradition (OK, a one-person tradition...). >> I agree, tho I frankly think TPTB left open all sorts of possibilities -- big surprise. << There are other ways the two obviously -- to me -- differ. I just can't see Gabs mentoring someone in the way Xena did her. If nothing else, the mentoring between X and G was just too personal to be repeated. Gabrielle came to be a good warrior not because that was her intent (or Xena's) but because it was a fairly direct (if not straight-forward) consequence of her traveling with Xena. >> Hmmm, without commenting on mentorship per se, I have to disagree here on both counts mentioned above. Before we even heard about her wanting to be a bard, Gabrielle definitely expressed interest in being a warrior like Xena. That was certainly part of the "teach me everything you know" part -- much to Xena's chagrin. It was a big part of her attraction to Xena, which she mentioned to her sister in the premier ep and tried to emulate as early "Dreamworker." She even learned her first fighting skills independently of Xena (from the Amazons) -- as well as made her first kill all on her own. True, traveling with Xena accelerated Gabrielle's development in that area, dampened only by her "reverance for life." I agree that wasn't Xena's intent, but I do believe it was Gabrielle's, regardless of her initial naivete. Second, I definitely see Gabrielle as a teacher herself (Xena being her most notable "student"), which she was even in the earliest stages. In the end, I saw her as more of a "complete" warrior for good -- able to use and teach a variety of skills (not all physical) to fight for a better world. Some of that she had on her own and some of it she learned from Xena. As you say, she was different from Xena, which is what made them such great mentors for each other. I do think Gabrielle tended to be less "personal" in her approach, in terms of speaking of ideals in a general way. However, I was left with the feeling that she now had the confidence and mantle to become more like Xena, Lao Ma and her own Amazon teachers in terms of guiding others in a more direct way. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #145 **************************************