From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #140 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, May 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 140 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Last of The Centaurs [Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Last of The Centaurs At 22:32 22/05/2003 -0400, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > > > From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com > > > > On the question of forgiving the villain in Last of the Centaurs, remember > > that Xena was also ready to let the villain in the Helicon episode live. > > > >Yes you are right and that wasn't the first time she attempted to save some >one she wronged. In Callisto she thought about letting Callisto go so that >she might reform. Gabrielle strongly objected as did Callisto for that >matter. In The Debt Xena might have been willing to let Ming Tien live if he >hadn't decide to spill the beans about mom. The problem with Belach was that >I felt that Xena spared him for the wrong reason. She spared him because he >finally became reconciled to his father. Belach deserved forgiveness because >he finally recognized what a good man Borias was and was reconciled with his >daughter. The centaurs and their near extinction were forgotten. The crime >here isn't that Belach dislikes a father who abandoned him, which is actually >not a bad reason to habor a grudge, or that he was an oblivious parent but >that he murders in fit a pique. Perhaps he did think he was wronged by the >centaursit still doesn't excuse the whole sale slaughter of a species. That >is the crime and Belach never says he is sorry or expresses any regrets about >it. If he was wracked with guilt and remorse then I would say he deserved >forgiveness but I certainly never saw it. > >CherylA This is the beauty of XWP. Belcach doesn't deserve forgiveness. Doesn't particularly want it, either. But - Xena is no god-like figure dispensing forgiveness for "the greater good". She has no right to fogive Belach - after all she has done much much worse. BUT she is still guilty over her treatment of Borias on so many levels - not just busting up his family, but spurning his love and then betraying him. Worst of all, she was not able to reconcile with him because he was murdered by her henchman Dagnine. AND she is still aching over the son she and Borias abandoned. A hero who allows personal shame to rule her actions is not your bog-standard BS hero. Bring on the morally conflicted ones!! Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:36:13 -0500 From: Stephanie Wilson Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Anyone up for some more Roar? At 10:24 PM 5/22/2003 -0400, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: [polite snipperoos] >Sci-Fi might not have picked up Roar if Heath Ledger hadn't been >the star. The show was bigger-budget than such Xena rip-offs as >Beastmaster and Conan and tried to be more serious than Xena, >but it was never as good as Xena or Hercules. The underlying story of Roar ... didn't it have to do with something such as the Roman Empire *did* get to Ireland and try to assimilate it through force, yet failed miserably? They tried to tie it into history as an explanation of why the Romans took everything around them yet seemed to stop cold at the shores of Ireland. That's what I remember. I had the first few episodes on tape from the original airing up until a year or so ago. I remember being incredibly moved by the first episode, mostly because they played one of my favorite Loreena McKennit songs "Cymbeline", and because of the poignant and strong ending of the ep. Episodes afterward were intriguing, but I just think that Roar came along at the wrong time. S. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:11:15 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: The Chakram In a message dated 5/22/2003 7:11:40 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > As to the evolution of the chaky, I agree it was just a nifty weapon to > begin with much as Gabby was just a chatty sidekick who was comic relief. I > don't think TPTB had any idea how things would develop. Like life in > general one thing lead to another. The chakram and Gabrielle became more > than they were meant to be in the larger sceme of things. > > Cheryl > What?!!!! You send me in circles, up walls, through the stratasphere with your "the chaky has spiritual qualities," and now you call it a mere "nifty weapon"?!!! Just as you've got me coming around to your vision?!!! Why, I oughta .... Ah, the joys of XWP discussion. Where else can you turn your world upside down and love every minute of it? Okay, you started all this. What's next? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:51:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Message from Claire Stansfield... (fwd) Aha! Someone told me they saw Claire on Oprah...wish I coulda seen it. :( And Brooklyn is gonna be Claire's last con?? :( Tis a good thing I have tickets for it then!! :) -Sarah- - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:25:40 -0700 (PDT) From: aida@amethystvisions.com To: abbagirl@cyberspace.org Subject: Message from Claire Stansfield... Message from Claire Stansfield.net! Hello my sweet friends!! Sorry I have been MIA for so long. I have been very busy with my new business venture. I started designing and came up with a t shirt line called C&C California. My partner and I were featured on Oprah Winfrey on Wednesday and all hell has broken loose!! I am so grateful and completely fulfilled. Working long hours and loving it. You can see the t shirts at www.Oprah.com as well as www.eluxury.com and also check out store location at my new site www.candccalifornia.com (big thanks to sexy Aida for the quick site building). I must admit I have been really missing all of the Xena fans, but am happy (and sad) to say that I will be seeing some of you in August at my very last U.S. con...that's right...Im gotta hang up the old fish nets and fan fic and say adieu. Tickets sales are low, but I'm still showing up god dammit!! The show and all the conventions were so much fun and I cannot tell you how much joy you have all brought into my life over the last 6 years! This site will be gone, as well as my filthy mouth at cons. But you can always drop me a line at the e mail on www.candccalifornia.com and I will stay in touch I promise. Again stay strong ... big chicks rule and I f**#@#g love you all madly. Don't ever forget that. Yours always, The evil Alti AKA CLAIRE xxxxxxx - --Claire Stansfield.net-- http://www.clairestansfield.net Automatic Traffic Generator Doubles Your Hits! Plus you earn bonus traffic on your referrals. http://linktrack.bravenet.com/o.php?id=1456 ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 22:27:33 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Last of The Centaurs - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sojourner" > > This is the beauty of XWP. Belcach doesn't deserve forgiveness. Doesn't > particularly want it, either. But - Xena is no god-like figure dispensing > forgiveness for "the greater good". She has no right to fogive Belach - > after all she has done much much worse. BUT she is still guilty over her > treatment of Borias on so many levels - not just busting up his family, but > spurning his love and then betraying him. Worst of all, she was not able to > reconcile with him because he was murdered by her henchman Dagnine. AND she > is still aching over the son she and Borias abandoned. My problem isn't that Xena feels sympathy for Belach or that she feels that she owes him. I agree with everything you say about Xena's guilt. My problem has less to do with Xena's actions than with the assumption that the audience should agree with Xena. Xena lets Belach off the hook because she feels guilty but at no point does any one call her on it. In Callsito she has the exact same feelings and Gabrielle tells her that she can't let Callisto go because her crimes are so great. Gabrielle basically tells her she can't let her feelings over ride the need for justice. In this episode everyone seems just happy as clams that Belach and his daughter are reconciled and Xenan and Nicha will live happily ever after on her mother's land. Yet the issue of justice for the centaurs is ignored and that's a problem with the episode and it doesn't stem from Xena's character. It is a problem with the writing. > > A hero who allows personal shame to rule her actions is not your > bog-standard BS hero. Bring on the morally conflicted ones!! > I agree Xena. Xena is interesting because she understands that human actions have all kind of motivations. She knows that she has escaped justice and she has always been uncomfortable judging others. Her impulse is to give those that she has wronged a chance to reform - unfortunate most don't want that chance. They are for the most part in love with their grievances and giving them up cause tem to loose their identity. Callisto, Ming Tien, Belleraphon live for their vengenance. People who are saved such as Thelassa in LUATD amd Grudhilda are willing to let them go because they accept that their hate is a not a reson for living. Perhaps that is why Belach is considered redeemed because he is willing to abandon his grievance against his father. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #140 **************************************