From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #129 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, May 13 2003 Volume 03 : Number 129 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Con 03 Victoria Pratt (Cyan) and the fan videos [KTL <] Re: [chakram-refugees] www.hobbitontours.com [Sojourner > [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Con 03 Victoria Pratt (Cyan) and the fan videos [I] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:58:20 -0800 (AKDT) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Con 03 Victoria Pratt (Cyan) and the fan videos The first question Vicky was asked was, "Did you bring your husband?" And she looked down at the fan and answered, "I did." Then she raised her eyebrows and challenged, "Is that a problem?" Cracked everybody up. (Including Vicky.) Her husband of course is T. J. Scott, who's directed a handful of Xena eps including the extraordinary "Adventures in the Sin Trade" I and II, "Return of Callisto" and "Girls Just Want To Have Fun" among others. T.J. has just a great eye for visuals and for very fluid, fast-moving, constantly in motion camera work with shots taken from all kinds of quirky angles, mixing very wide, huge set shots with extremely tight close-ups of bits and pieces of people, props and sets. I love his work on Xena. Okay, let's attempt to describe Vicky's costume. She had on black jeans, brown boots with chunky heels and a purple, sort of tank top, patterned with small squares and a sheer piece of the tank top material covering her bare belly and flowing down on one side to her knees. (Whew! Glad THAT'S over. And I sure hope that person who wrote me thanking me for starting with descriptions of what everybody wore knows how much blood I sweat doing this!) Vicky talked about being in Blackpool at a con where the fans had no idea who she was. And then she asked us questions about Shalizar(?) and sadly, none of us knew the answers. How embarrassing! We know who she "was" but we don't know who she "is"! Even when she tried to give us hints, we still sat there blankly staring at her. A few folks gave out a few tentative grunts and "Uuums" but nobody shone for sure. Vicky, however, rose to the occasion and kind of pretended that we got the answers and so gave out the little presents she had brought along as rewards. See-just goes to show that grunts can be very rewarding at times. Someone asked about the clothes changing scene in "Adventures in the Sin Trade". The scene where Cyan "undressed Xena with her eyes". (And was far more successful at it than anyone else I've ever seen before or since. You know, I'm kind of surprised we've never seen this scene in an infomercial, featuring Snoop Dogg presenting "Girls Gone Wild: Spring Break in Siberia".) The fan asked how they got that effect of clothes whipping on and off their bodies. Vicky said first that what she remembered the most about that scene was how very cold it was in the studio that day. Then she explained, "I would take off my top. And then they would reverse print it", which made it look like she was whipping the outfit on, not off. And she said to the guy who had asked about how they did it, "You would have loved to have been there". She explained that she and Lucy were essentially naked off and on for a whole day while shooting that scene, constantly getting their clothes pulled off. And that there were about 50 people standing around watching them as they did this. She said that it was just really awkward, a long, tough day. She talked about her first ever fight scene with Lucy. "I was very nervous. She was very good." She mentioned how hard the crew worked on Xena in order to get the effects the scripts and directors called for. For example, for the big "Cyan chasing Xena through the forest" and "Xena 'kills 'em all'" scenes in Sin Trades, the crew built huge sections of scaffolding and covered them very carefully with cut branches so that it would look like the characters were truly running along in the trees. She said "the behind the scenes work on that show would just blow your mind". She talked about going into the costume shop for fittings. And noticing that there were all these racks of skins hanging up. "Like just raw skins, like kills-just dead beasts" strung up all over the place. And she laughed. Vicky laughs constantly, but it's no way a nervous giggle thing. She just always seems to really be enjoying herself. And so she laughs. Someone asked what kind of skins they were and Vicky said she thought they were mostly possum skins. (Which are "varmints" over there.) Vicky was fun and sooooo patient with us. She's so full of energy and joie de vivre that she's always a pleasure to watch. At some point this day, we had the Kimmel Show folks show up. Without any set-up or introduction, this big, unattractive man dressed as Xena jumped up on stage. He began to chant, "Xena! Xena" and waved his arms beckoningly to us to join in with him. A few folks said it a few times, but most of the audience just stared at him for a few seconds and then turned away to talk with their neighbors or to leave the room. I haven't seen a tape of that show yet, so I don't know if this clip got on the air or not. What the hell were they thinking? Then a Kimmel camera crew walked around in the exhibit areas asking to do interviews with fans. They generally picked fans who were dressed as characters, of course. I always wonder why those fans who go to Xena cons dressed up to display their fandom are considered so much more strange than folks who go to sports events and wear giant cheese wedges on their heads or paint their faces in their team's color schemes or write huge numbers on their bare chests or wear enormous foam hands with the "We're number one!" finger sticking up on them. There doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between these two expressions of support for something one enjoys that I can see. Of course, we do see a lot of those sporting fans on camera too... At any rate, I thought the Kimmel thing was ugly and obviously focused upon trying to make us look stupid. I felt they sure didn't deserve any cooperation from us and was very glad to see they didn't get much. Side note on the videos at the con: A couple of people have asked me about the fan produced videos. I have very minimal experience with shooting and editing video material. I've done it mostly for classes I've taken. With that warning, I'll tell you what I noticed about the videos at the con. As I said earlier, technically they were all very well done. Many of them were also very good artistically. One problem I noticed was that not all of them had a good match of elements. They just did not come together as a coherent whole. For a number of them, it just seemed like the producer said, "I like this song. And I like these clips, so I'm gonna stick them together!" And of course, the SAME clips appeared again and again and again and again and again. In a good musical video, the visuals relate to the lyrics. So that what you see underscores and supports what you hear, and vice versa. The goal should be to find lyrics that could be used to highlight something specifically relevant to either one particular moment or an ongoing theme of XWP. Or, one could deliberately select visuals and lyrics that are in direct apposition. This is usually used for humor but these could also work as a commentary or to satisfy an agenda, i.e., propaganda videos. Grin. One excellent use of humor was in a video made by a fan named Marilyn. She used the song, "I Hope You Dance". And had a clip from Return of Callisto where Xena kisses Gabrielle and then Gabrielle walks over to Perdicus to be married to him. As the lyrics said something like "If you think of selling out, please reconsider". And at that point, Marilyn played that same scene backwards so that the minute Gab got to Perdicus, she immediately reversed back to Xena for another liplock. It was VERY funny. Of course one can make an "artistic" video, with purely surrealistic or DaDaesque images that don't have much to do with the lyrics. This could be used to show maybe a sense of alienation or things being out of whack. But most of the episodes from XWP contained mostly natural elements, fairly "prosaic" material which wouldn't work for that type of video. Some eps, like Bitter Suite, Paradise Found, Married with Fishsticks and a few scenes from other eps would work for surrealistic videos. Anything that would show dislocation, wonder and unease would be just what you needed. Some of the videos also had trouble with rhythm. When you're making a video, it's best to cut it so that the visuals change on a beat of the music. Doing this is just "right" and natural, so the visual shift is not jarring to our innate integration of sight and sound. I mean you could be looking somewhere in real life and hear a person behind you hammering and what you're looking at doesn't match that rhythm and that's fine. But if you do look at the person hammering, of course the action is synchronized with the sound. So when we are presented with a picture and a sound linked together on the screen, we expect them to work together to create a harmonic whole, just like in real life. In the same way, when there's a very strong action in a scene, like Xena raising her sword over her head to start a battle, then have her reach the top of the arc on a beat of the music, even if you don't cut away. If you work on an AVID system, this is actually very simple to do. You just press a key on the keyboard as you listen to a piece of music to insert the beats on your audio line and then you can match them when cutting the video. (For white people, this doesn't always work as well as we might hope.) I don't know if this is available on Final Cut Pro or not. I have even less experience with that program than with the AVID. And no experience with any other programs. BUT-to be perfectly honest, the main reason I wasn't all that interested in the videos was that many of them were far too Gab-centric for me. A number of them showed only her, not both her and Xena. I LIKE Gabrielle, and always have, but my reaction to her is my typical reaction to any other television character I like. Whereas my reaction to Xena is wild, unique and totally off my normal scale. Now if the videos had more Xena visuals in them, I would have been riveted to my seat. (AKA being stuck to it-the hazard of wearing shorts while sitting for hours on plastic seats.) Or possibly just crashed down under my seat-sometimes seeing Lucy as Xena just about knocks me over The most emotionally striking video for me was the one that they showed just before Lucy and Renee came out. (I THINK that was when they showed it.) It was cut to someone singing something like, "Even knowing the ending, I would have started anyway." And to me this is exactly right, it's exactly how I feel about loving the Xena: Warrior Princess show. Still. KT "OH! DAMN, she is FINE!" And KT and the seat are both sprawled out on the floor, mated together only by the tenuous ickiness of a pair of sweaty thighs ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 07:35:07 +0100 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] www.hobbitontours.com At 20:38 11/05/2003 -0400, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: >An article in the travel section of my paper today told of a company >that provides tours to the Hobbiton set for Lord of the Rings in New >Zealand. web site -- www.hobbitontours.com >They also mentioned a book -- Ian Brodie's Lord of the Rings Location >Book, which tells travelers how to find the Hobbiton set, the Helm's Deep >set and other LOTR sites. > >Boeotian It's a very good book. I bought it while in NZ recently and promptly had my brother and father nick it. Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:39:06 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 12 May 2003 14:24, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Well, strictly speaking, I don't think TPTB intended there to be any > 'alternative endings' for the series. Though of course, if indivi\dual > fans want to look at it that way, it's 'whatever floats your boat'. But > [he says, looking svere] it ain't canon. >> > > I disagree. I think TPTB purposely gave us a range of possible endings, > precisely to support the reality that each of us will see it ending as we > choose, regardless of what TPTB chose. "Canon" is fan territory, of more > importance to some fans than others. It seeks to limit and define to a far > greater extent than a show that was intentionally ambiguous, multi-faceted > and encouraging of diverse perspectives. Well, no, I quite disagree. 'Clones' is really irrelevant as an alternative ending, as is the 'present-day' part of Soul Possession, since they don't deal with the story of the 'original' Xena and Gabs. And When Fates Collide ultimately collapsed back to what appears to be the 'regular' timeline. Now, suppose we regard the screened order of episodes, with FIN as the ending. They all fit together OK, there is no logical problem. It makes sense. Also, it is normally considered that eps are screened in chronological order (unless there's an explict flashback, which doesn't apply here). But, more importantly, let's say that we regard WFC, Many Happy Returns, and Soul Possession as candidates for 'alternative' endings to FIN (add any others you like, it won't change my argument). *But* they all start and end with Xena alive. Friend in Need ends with Xena *dead*. As dead as Monty Python's parrot. So, how can FIN happen *before* any of those other eps? This is logically impossible (unless one presumes that Xena is somehow revived before MHR begins, which is kind of a rather huge little circumstance not to receive so much as a mention). So to have any other ending than FIN not only requires the presumption that the eps have been screened out of order, but also requires the assumption of some rather huge events not even mentioned or hinted at in the series. That's fanfic. > >The story centers on the startlingly successful efforts of a scientist > > and> > > >three Xena fans to clone Xena and Gabrielle. On a dark country road Dr. > > >Alexis Los Alamos (Claire Stansfield) buys two strands of hair. They > > > have come form the Tomb Of The Scrolls . > > > > Interesting - which tomb is that? Ares' tomb? But why would Xena or > > Gabs > > be buried there? And anyway, Xena was cremated in FIN - no hair left. > > Of course, hair doesn't need to have been preserved after death, maybe if > > some contemporary Xena-groupie had filched some of X and G's hair at the > > time > > and left it in whatever tomb it was.....>> > > Heh. The other thing is that, if it were Ares' tomb, it would be X&G's > descendants' hair -- Janice and Mel -- wouldn't it? Well, it crossed my mind that Jan and Mel might have left their hair there - but that wouldn't do. Wrong DNA (since descendants after ?? generations will have vastly different DNA), more to the point, the carbon dating would be very wrong. I was considering the possibility that there might be some of the original X & G's hair in Ares' tomb (which, if you recall, did contain a lot of scrolls and therefore could be called the 'tomb of the scrolls'.) > > < > experiences of the real Xena and Gabs (again, assuming this were > > possible, which in practical terms it isn't) you would presumably get out > > of it pretty > > exact mental duplicates of the originals, too. If you fed into them > > experiences which were essentially similar to the real thing, then your > > duplicates would just be fairly close. And so on. But there is *no > > way* > > that Xena and Gabs could 'remember' that some detail was wrong. The > > most they could have would be a feeling that they would not have behaved > > in quite > > the way portrayed, i.e. that something wasn't in character for them.>> > > But if you accept that they could somehow be fed "real" experiences, why > couldn't they compare that data with what they saw on the admittedly > "creative" videos? The comparison would involve their version of "memory," > which might or might not be in synch with "liberties" taken with Gabs' > scrolls. But how would anyone feed them the 'real' experiences? - and, if Alti could've done that, why would she need the fans? Presumably Mac's videos were the best she could do. > > >The Xenites are now safe but they are bereft of their clones. As the > > > walk down the road they take solace in the fact that the real Xena and > > Gabrielle > > >weren't as dynamic as the TV characters. > > > > I think this was more of a dig at TPTB themselves than at the fans, > > actually. > > I'm sure TPTB knew how fanatical some of the fans were.>> > > Hmmm. I do think this was also a legitimate poke at fans who expect the > real people who played the characters to be more like X&G. Oh yes - that too. That hadn't occurred to me, but definitely yes. > > > > > In the backseat are clone Xena and Gabrielle drinking Champaign and > > > going off to start a new life in the City of Angles. > > > > Nice touch, that. I really liked that ending.>> > > Omigod! You did? Why, you ol' closet romantic, you. Closet? Romantic? [suspiciously]: This isn't one of those subtexty things, is it? ;) > > >I have never found male fans to be that fixated on Xena's bosoms > > > > Agreed, again. But Xena's midriff, now..... [returns to gazing > > raptly at his screensaver of Xena in the bikini in the forge in > > FIN....]>> > > Um, Candy? cr? I don't know what male (or female, for that matter) fans > you've talked to, but I wouldn't assume they didn't notice said bosoms (a > lot), simply because they didn't mention that. I've certainly read enough > reviews by male fans who gush about Xena's "breastplates." Well, actually, you can leave me out of that. I like skinny figures, I don't care for that leather armour that makes Xena look fat above and below. I prefer almost any of her other cossies. Okay, so maybe I gawp at all the female figures on display, but I do it *tastefully*. So there. ;) > > >Now a few fans were insulted by their > > >portrayal in this episode. Now you have to remember the people who made > > >gentle fun of us in this episode were not so gentle with themselves in > > > the Herc episodes Yes, Virginia There Is A Hercules and the other one. > > > So if they can ridicule themselves they can tease the fans a bit. > > > > Can I absolutely agree with you on that one? In fact I'll stick my neck > > out > > and say that any fan who was offended has a large ego and zero sense of > > humour. (I actually thought carefully before I wrote that statement and > > I > > can't think of any of the fans whose opinions I value who would be > > offended > > by it). And that goes for Soul Possession too.>> > > Oh yeah? You itching for a fight? Just kidding. I always thought it was > great that TPTB got the fans down so "cold" and made us part of Xena > herstory like that. See? All the fans I know (or at least, those whose opinions I value) have enough sense of humour to laugh at their portrayal on Clones and SP. > > > > >ROC didn't have a lot to do here but I loved her > > >sidelong glances at her devoted fan - she looked as if she couldn't > > > figure out if Clea was just a harmless lunatic or if she posed a real > > > danger. > > > > Or maybe a little flattered that someone would hero-worship her? ;)>> > > Nope, I gotta go with Cande on that one. I saw chagrin, not pleasure. OK, I'll take your judgement. I must admit I didn't re-watch the ep to check Gabs' expression. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:48:52 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 5/12/03 2:54:13 AM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: Ife wrote: << I think TPTB purposely gave us a range of possible endings, > precisely to support the reality that each of us will see it ending as we > choose, regardless of what TPTB chose. "Canon" is fan territory, of more > importance to some fans than others. It seeks to limit and define to a far > greater extent than a show that was intentionally ambiguous, multi-faceted > and encouraging of diverse perspectives. Well, no, I quite disagree. 'Clones' is really irrelevant as an alternative ending, as is the 'present-day' part of Soul Possession, since they don't deal with the story of the 'original' Xena and Gabs. And When Fates Collide ultimately collapsed back to what appears to be the 'regular' timeline. >> cr, dear, my point is that "irrelevant" is in the eye of the beholder. To some people, "canon" is whatever can be based on what we actually saw. To others, it's "logical" pieces of what we saw, with some pieces thrown out as "aberrant." Some people will choose an alternative ending which makes AFIN irrelevant *to them.* If they choose to picture X&G drinking champagne in the modern world as clones, then all the DNA minutiae in the world will be irrelevant *to them.* That's all I'm saying. That has nothing to do with what TPTB or you or I choose to see as irrelevant, illogical or not "canon." Sort of that multiple realities thing again. (And here, ironically, I agree with your *the* reality, in terms of accepting that "aberrant" eps like "Clones" are plausible because TPTB presented it as such. It's out there, even if you choose not to accept it.) > LOL! Oh, boy, would you get arguments from some quarters about what "makes sense." But I know what you mean. > > < > experiences of the real Xena and Gabs (again, assuming this were > > possible, which in practical terms it isn't) you would presumably get out > > of it pretty > > exact mental duplicates of the originals, too. If you fed into them > > experiences which were essentially similar to the real thing, then your > > duplicates would just be fairly close. And so on. But there is *no > > way* > > that Xena and Gabs could 'remember' that some detail was wrong. The > > most they could have would be a feeling that they would not have behaved > > in quite > > the way portrayed, i.e. that something wasn't in character for them.>> > > But if you accept that they could somehow be fed "real" experiences, why > couldn't they compare that data with what they saw on the admittedly > "creative" videos? The comparison would involve their version of "memory," > which might or might not be in synch with "liberties" taken with Gabs' > scrolls. But how would anyone feed them the 'real' experiences? - and, if Alti could've done that, why would she need the fans? Presumably Mac's videos were the best she could do.>> By "real," I simply mean what's been programmed in their heads. That's the only "reality" they know. (Though it's hinted that they also somehow know things that weren't programmed, but I won't get into that.) As for the fans, they saved Alti mucho time by compiling the right variety of scenes. Beyond that, they were entertaining fillers for us viewers. > > > In the backseat are clone Xena and Gabrielle drinking Champaign and > > > going off to start a new life in the City of Angles. > > > > Nice touch, that. I really liked that ending.>> > > Omigod! You did? Why, you ol' closet romantic, you. Closet? Romantic? [suspiciously]: This isn't one of those subtexty things, is it? ;)>> Is it? Takes one to know one. << Okay, so maybe I gawp at all the female figures on display, but I do it *tastefully*. So there. ;) >> Why, of course! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:48:54 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Con 03 Victoria Pratt (Cyan) and the fan videos In a message dated 5/12/03 1:02:44 AM Central Daylight Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << At some point this day, we had the Kimmel Show folks show up. Without any set-up or introduction, this big, unattractive man dressed as Xena jumped up on stage. He began to chant, "Xena! Xena" and waved his arms beckoningly to us to join in with him. A few folks said it a few times, but most of the audience just stared at him for a few seconds and then turned away to talk with their neighbors or to leave the room. I haven't seen a tape of that show yet, so I don't know if this clip got on the air or not. What the hell were they thinking? >> Yep, it most certainly did air. The funny part is that I got the exact effect of what you say -- "Who the hell is that? Some idiot, I guess. Oh, well, what were we talking about before he showed up?" Lucy seemed to get a kick out of it, even gave the guy some sympathy when he got razzed by nearly everyone else on the show. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #129 **************************************