From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #128 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, May 12 2003 Volume 03 : Number 128 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:24:43 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 5/11/2003 12:20:11 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sunday 11 May 2003 12:31, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ># > ># > ># > ># > >Send In The Clones > > > This is a pleasant little comedy that begins the wind down to the finale of > the series. TPTB gave us a whole slew of endings for the series and this > one allows us to have a Xena and Gabrielle wandering around present day Los > Angles. Well, strictly speaking, I don't think TPTB intended there to be any 'alternative endings' for the series. Though of course, if indivi\dual fans want to look at it that way, it's 'whatever floats your boat'. But [he says, looking svere] it ain't canon. >> I disagree. I think TPTB purposely gave us a range of possible endings, precisely to support the reality that each of us will see it ending as we choose, regardless of what TPTB chose. "Canon" is fan territory, of more importance to some fans than others. It seeks to limit and define to a far greater extent than a show that was intentionally ambiguous, multi-faceted and encouraging of diverse perspectives. >The story centers on the startlingly successful efforts of a scientist and> > >three Xena fans to clone Xena and Gabrielle. On a dark country road Dr. > >Alexis Los Alamos (Claire Stansfield) buys two strands of hair. They have > >come form the Tomb Of The Scrolls . > > Interesting - which tomb is that? Ares' tomb? But why would Xena or > Gabs > be buried there? And anyway, Xena was cremated in FIN - no hair left. > Of course, hair doesn't need to have been preserved after death, maybe if > some contemporary Xena-groupie had filched some of X and G's hair at the > time > and left it in whatever tomb it was.....>> Heh. The other thing is that, if it were Ares' tomb, it would be X&G's descendants' hair -- Janice and Mel -- wouldn't it? > < experiences of the real Xena and Gabs (again, assuming this were possible, > which in practical terms it isn't) you would presumably get out of it > pretty > exact mental duplicates of the originals, too. If you fed into them > experiences which were essentially similar to the real thing, then your > duplicates would just be fairly close. And so on. But there is *no way* > > that Xena and Gabs could 'remember' that some detail was wrong. The most > they could have would be a feeling that they would not have behaved in > quite > the way portrayed, i.e. that something wasn't in character for them.>> But if you accept that they could somehow be fed "real" experiences, why couldn't they compare that data with what they saw on the admittedly "creative" videos? The comparison would involve their version of "memory," which might or might not be in synch with "liberties" taken with Gabs' scrolls. > > OK, so I'm nitpicking, just like a typical fan >> No?! > > > >As a puzzled Gabrielle watches her partner wander away, Alexis draw her > >aside. Alexis says she is afraid that they have awaken Evil Xena. > >Gabrielle says that explains it - what "it"is is difficult to see. Yes > >Xena seems a bit cruder than usual but she never was the most genteel lady > >in the room so why Gabrielle suddenly agrees that Xena is now possibly > evil > >is a little hard to understand. > > Just 'woken up', I'm not entirely surprised she feels a little unsure of > things, or is willing to believe what a reassuring authority figure tells > her.>> I was initially curious about this too, so rewatched it with that in mind. If I remember correctly, Xena seems a bit cynical about the "good deeds" thing. It's not just the crudity, but Xena's puzzling lack of focus, offhanded comments and disinterest in heroic activities that gets Gabrielle wandering. But frankly, if she hadn't made that "So that's what's wrong with her" remark, I might not have "gotten" it as intended. > >Alti with the Xenites in tow goes off to find Xena. In a junkyard, Xena, > >of many skills, is busy using modern day tools to fashion herself a great > >big sword. The sword she had was just a prop and she is unimpressed with > >guns.>> I LOVED that scene with Xena using safety goggles and power tools, tossing away the gun as "useless in hand-to-hand combat." > >The Xenites are now safe but they are bereft of their clones. As the walk > >down the road they take solace in the fact that the real Xena and > Gabrielle > >weren't as dynamic as the TV characters. > > I think this was more of a dig at TPTB themselves than at the fans, > actually. > I'm sure TPTB knew how fanatical some of the fans were.>> Hmmm. I do think this was also a legitimate poke at fans who expect the real people who played the characters to be more like X&G. > >As the Xenites walk off into the sunset > >lamenting that no one at any convention will believe them, a cab passes > by. > > In the backseat are clone Xena and Gabrielle drinking Champaign and going > >off to start a new life in the City of Angles. > > Nice touch, that. I really liked that ending.>> Omigod! You did? Why, you ol' closet romantic, you. > > >I have never found male fans to be that fixated on Xena's bosoms > > Agreed, again. But Xena's midriff, now..... [returns to gazing > raptly at his screensaver of Xena in the bikini in the forge in FIN....]>> Um, Candy? cr? I don't know what male (or female, for that matter) fans you've talked to, but I wouldn't assume they didn't notice said bosoms (a lot), simply because they didn't mention that. I've certainly read enough reviews by male fans who gush about Xena's "breastplates." > >Now a few fans were insulted by their > >portrayal in this episode. Now you have to remember the people who made > >gentle fun of us in this episode were not so gentle with themselves in the > >Herc episodes Yes, Virginia There Is A Hercules and the other one. So if > >they can ridicule themselves they can tease the fans a bit. > > Can I absolutely agree with you on that one? In fact I'll stick my neck > out > and say that any fan who was offended has a large ego and zero sense of > humour. (I actually thought carefully before I wrote that statement and I > > can't think of any of the fans whose opinions I value who would be offended > > by it). And that goes for Soul Possession too.>> Oh yeah? You itching for a fight? Just kidding. I always thought it was great that TPTB got the fans down so "cold" and made us part of Xena herstory like that. > > > In fact, insofar as I recognised any of the fannish symptoms they portrayed > > on screen, in myself or others I know, I found them hilarious.>> Absolutely. When Polly gets all excited watching feral Xena butt-kick, I could imagine my friends rolling their eyes and pointing disgustedly at little ol' moi. > >For me the episode didn't take off until Xena and > >Gabrielle showed up. LL was really good as Xena - chowing down on pizza, > >cheering on her doppelganger kissing Gabrielle and generally being a > danger > >to modern society. > > Reckon LL enjoyed the chance to be a public menace? ;)>> Yep, if there's such a thing as "Devil Lucy," I believe she had a ball swaggering around, playing tricks on her colleague and generally being as anti-reformed hero as she could -- sort of like when she's Meg (whom Lucy says she likes to play, along with no-holds-barred young Evil Xena). > > >ROC didn't have a lot to do here but I loved her > >sidelong glances at her devoted fan - she looked as if she couldn't figure > >out if Clea was just a harmless lunatic or if she posed a real danger. > > Or maybe a little flattered that someone would hero-worship her? ;)>> Nope, I gotta go with Cande on that one. I saw chagrin, not pleasure. > > >So > >on the whole it was a nice inside joke for the fans and it had a clever > >idea that has spawned some interesting fan fiction. > > > >That's it for this week. > > I loved it. And thanks for the review, as always. > Ditto. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:25:25 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 5/11/2003 12:20:11 PM Central Daylight Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > On Sunday 11 May 2003 12:31, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ># > ># > ># > ># > >Send In The Clones > > > This is a pleasant little comedy that begins the wind down to the finale of > the series. TPTB gave us a whole slew of endings for the series and this > one allows us to have a Xena and Gabrielle wandering around present day Los > Angles. Well, strictly speaking, I don't think TPTB intended there to be any 'alternative endings' for the series. Though of course, if indivi\dual fans want to look at it that way, it's 'whatever floats your boat'. But [he says, looking svere] it ain't canon. >> I disagree. I think TPTB purposely gave us a range of possible endings, precisely to support the reality that each of us will see it ending as we choose, regardless of what TPTB chose. "Canon" is fan territory, of more importance to some fans than others. It seeks to limit and define to a far greater extent than a show that was intentionally ambiguous, multi-faceted and encouraging of diverse perspectives. >The story centers on the startlingly successful efforts of a scientist and> > >three Xena fans to clone Xena and Gabrielle. On a dark country road Dr. > >Alexis Los Alamos (Claire Stansfield) buys two strands of hair. They have > >come form the Tomb Of The Scrolls . > > Interesting - which tomb is that? Ares' tomb? But why would Xena or > Gabs > be buried there? And anyway, Xena was cremated in FIN - no hair left. > Of course, hair doesn't need to have been preserved after death, maybe if > some contemporary Xena-groupie had filched some of X and G's hair at the > time > and left it in whatever tomb it was.....>> Heh. The other thing is that, if it were Ares' tomb, it would be X&G's descendants' hair -- Janice and Mel -- wouldn't it? > < experiences of the real Xena and Gabs (again, assuming this were possible, > which in practical terms it isn't) you would presumably get out of it > pretty > exact mental duplicates of the originals, too. If you fed into them > experiences which were essentially similar to the real thing, then your > duplicates would just be fairly close. And so on. But there is *no way* > > that Xena and Gabs could 'remember' that some detail was wrong. The most > they could have would be a feeling that they would not have behaved in > quite > the way portrayed, i.e. that something wasn't in character for them.>> But if you accept that they could somehow be fed "real" experiences, why couldn't they compare that data with what they saw on the admittedly "creative" videos? The comparison would involve their version of "memory," which might or might not be in synch with "liberties" taken with Gabs' scrolls. > > OK, so I'm nitpicking, just like a typical fan >> No?! > > > >As a puzzled Gabrielle watches her partner wander away, Alexis draw her > >aside. Alexis says she is afraid that they have awaken Evil Xena. > >Gabrielle says that explains it - what "it"is is difficult to see. Yes > >Xena seems a bit cruder than usual but she never was the most genteel lady > >in the room so why Gabrielle suddenly agrees that Xena is now possibly > evil > >is a little hard to understand. > > Just 'woken up', I'm not entirely surprised she feels a little unsure of > things, or is willing to believe what a reassuring authority figure tells > her.>> I was initially curious about this too, so rewatched it with that in mind. If I remember correctly, Xena seems a bit cynical about the "good deeds" thing. It's not just the crudity, but Xena's puzzling lack of focus, offhanded comments and disinterest in heroic activities that gets Gabrielle wandering. But frankly, if she hadn't made that "So that's what's wrong with her" remark, I might not have "gotten" it as intended. > >Alti with the Xenites in tow goes off to find Xena. In a junkyard, Xena, > >of many skills, is busy using modern day tools to fashion herself a great > >big sword. The sword she had was just a prop and she is unimpressed with > >guns.>> I LOVED that scene with Xena using safety goggles and power tools, tossing away the gun as "useless in hand-to-hand combat." > >The Xenites are now safe but they are bereft of their clones. As the walk > >down the road they take solace in the fact that the real Xena and > Gabrielle > >weren't as dynamic as the TV characters. > > I think this was more of a dig at TPTB themselves than at the fans, > actually. > I'm sure TPTB knew how fanatical some of the fans were.>> Hmmm. I do think this was also a legitimate poke at fans who expect the real people who played the characters to be more like X&G. > >As the Xenites walk off into the sunset > >lamenting that no one at any convention will believe them, a cab passes > by. > > In the backseat are clone Xena and Gabrielle drinking Champaign and going > >off to start a new life in the City of Angles. > > Nice touch, that. I really liked that ending.>> Omigod! You did? Why, you ol' closet romantic, you. > > >I have never found male fans to be that fixated on Xena's bosoms > > Agreed, again. But Xena's midriff, now..... [returns to gazing > raptly at his screensaver of Xena in the bikini in the forge in FIN....]>> Um, Candy? cr? I don't know what male (or female, for that matter) fans you've talked to, but I wouldn't assume they didn't notice said bosoms (a lot), simply because they didn't mention that. I've certainly read enough reviews by male fans who gush about Xena's "breastplates." > >Now a few fans were insulted by their > >portrayal in this episode. Now you have to remember the people who made > >gentle fun of us in this episode were not so gentle with themselves in the > >Herc episodes Yes, Virginia There Is A Hercules and the other one. So if > >they can ridicule themselves they can tease the fans a bit. > > Can I absolutely agree with you on that one? In fact I'll stick my neck > out > and say that any fan who was offended has a large ego and zero sense of > humour. (I actually thought carefully before I wrote that statement and I > > can't think of any of the fans whose opinions I value who would be offended > > by it). And that goes for Soul Possession too.>> Oh yeah? You itching for a fight? Just kidding. I always thought it was great that TPTB got the fans down so "cold" and made us part of Xena herstory like that. > > > In fact, insofar as I recognised any of the fannish symptoms they portrayed > > on screen, in myself or others I know, I found them hilarious.>> Absolutely. When Polly gets all excited watching feral Xena butt-kick, I could imagine my friends rolling their eyes and pointing disgustedly at little ol' moi. > >For me the episode didn't take off until Xena and > >Gabrielle showed up. LL was really good as Xena - chowing down on pizza, > >cheering on her doppelganger kissing Gabrielle and generally being a > danger > >to modern society. > > Reckon LL enjoyed the chance to be a public menace? ;)>> Yep, if there's such a thing as "Devil Lucy," I believe she had a ball swaggering around, playing tricks on her colleague and generally being as anti-reformed hero as she could -- sort of like when she's Meg (whom Lucy says she likes to play, along with no-holds-barred young Evil Xena). > > >ROC didn't have a lot to do here but I loved her > >sidelong glances at her devoted fan - she looked as if she couldn't figure > >out if Clea was just a harmless lunatic or if she posed a real danger. > > Or maybe a little flattered that someone would hero-worship her? ;)>> Nope, I gotta go with Cande on that one. I saw chagrin, not pleasure. > > >So > >on the whole it was a nice inside joke for the fans and it had a clever > >idea that has spawned some interesting fan fiction. > > > >That's it for this week. > > I loved it. And thanks for the review, as always. > Ditto. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #128 **************************************