From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #127 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, May 11 2003 Volume 03 : Number 127 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] www.hobbitontours.com [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Re; [Chakram-refugees] [KLOSSNER9] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re; [Chakram-refugees] [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Sunday 11 May 2003 12:31, Cheryl Ande wrote: > # > # > # > # > Send In The Clones > > > > This is a pleasant little comedy that begins the wind down to the finale of > the series. TPTB gave us a whole slew of endings for the series and this > one allows us to have a Xena and Gabrielle wandering around present day Los > Angles. Well, strictly speaking, I don't think TPTB intended there to be any 'alternative endings' for the series. Though of course, if indivi\dual fans want to look at it that way, it's 'whatever floats your boat'. But [he says, looking svere] it ain't canon. Anyway, much though I like the idea of the clones wandering around in the present day, strictly speaking they're not descendants of the the Xena and Gabs we saw in the series, more like contemporaries of them (unless one believes in Lamarckism which one of those nice ideas which really doesn't work). Assuming, that is, that the strands of hair were from the original series X and G. There's still no way that the clones could have any memories of what the original Xena and Gabs saw - but more of that later. > The story centers on the startlingly successful efforts of a scientist and > three Xena fans to clone Xena and Gabrielle. On a dark country road Dr. > Alexis Los Alamos (Claire Stansfield) buys two strands of hair. They have > come form the Tomb Of The Scrolls . Interesting - which tomb is that? Ares' tomb? But why would Xena or Gabs be buried there? And anyway, Xena was cremated in FIN - no hair left. Of course, hair doesn't need to have been preserved after death, maybe if some contemporary Xena-groupie had filched some of X and G's hair at the time and left it in whatever tomb it was..... An interesting scientific discovery on the news tonight - an Oxford scientist has found 2000-year-old DNA from a cave in South Island, thought to come from moa (huge flightless bird) droppings. It was previously believed that DNA would not survive nearly that long. So, DNA *can* survive 2000 years. > At the lab the two naked but modestly shielded bard and warrior are > awaiting their wake up call. The fans now must program the clones with > Xena and Gabrielle memories via TV clips. There is of course a very > familiar argument - should subtext or action be emphasized. Clea, as an > ardent Gab fan, wants lots of campfire scenes and baths, but Polly like any > true Xena fan wants butt kicking. This of course is why Polly had to be a non-subtexter. Besides which (and this is another of those delightful in-jokes - the fans weren't the only ones they were sending up in this ep) isn't Polly Baigent one of Lucy's action doubles / stunties? > Mac wants Joxer but he is generally ignored as most Joxer fans are. Hey, don't give them a *bigger* inferiority complex! ;) > Alexis however supports action Xena and > clips of fighting Xena are feed into the brains of the clones. Now it is > interesting that I kept criticizing clips that the Xenites choose. They > start off with Chakram and go to Eve and then to OAAA . These wouldn't be > my choices at all. Now there is nothing wrong with OAAA but I would have > had pogo Xena emphasized then perhaps one of Xena's many Ares fights and > certainly a Callisto fight. Now a good choice of clips is open to debate > (which is why we are here, right - so what clips would you chose?). What you said... :) It would *have* to be Ares and Callisto. Maybe not an Alti fight in case it prompted anyone to notice who Alexis resembled... > Anyway > there is no response from the clones so everyone goes home for the night, > leaving the clones unattended. That night a mysterious intruder sneaks in > and programs Xena with clips of Evil Xena (Destiny. The Debt and AITST). My three favourite eps! I wish to say right now I was not, and never have been, in Los Angeles.... > The next day the four scientists discover to their horror the Evil Xena > program. Clea however is equally horrified that her Gabby has been given a > hair cut and her season 6 outfit - she is a fan of classic Gabby. She > however finally gets her way and the evil impulses are counter-acted with a > little Gabrielle. These are of course scenes from OAAA (a subtext > favorite) and then hippy Gabby. Then Polly gets the Gabspaz in to liven > things up a bit (I love the part where the Gab fan just winches as Gabby > slaughters the Romans - there still is a contingent of Gab fans that just > hate Gabby's murderous rampage). Finally the foursome seems to be at an > impasse as to what to next. Their problem is solved in a spectacular way. I was quite amused by the typical fannish argument (in which I love to indulge) about the trivial details of each scene. The only thing not quite right was having them quote 'Series 4, Episode 7' where we would all say 'Locked Up and Tied Down' (or if we *really* wanted to be arcane, 'Shark Island Prison'). But I guess they also have to cater to the non-fans who tune in, obviously, and 'S4 Ep 7' has an obvious meaning to everybody. > So Xena and Gabrielle need to be oriented to the modern world and they also > need feeding and watering. Xena is introduced to the joys of fat and sugar > and supreme pizza and Gabrielle fights with a straw. The three Xenites are > in ecstasy. Mac envisions himself as Xena and Gabrielle's first 21st > century man - obviously he isn't a subtext fan. Polly is cataloging which > action hero Xena could wipe the floor with - Jackie Chan and Jet Li are > included. Clea is mesmerized by her idol Gabrielle and plotting a marathon > showing of Ellen episodes. As for Xena and Gabrielle they are just plain > perplexed. Xena seems to really like pizza and is impressed by the sexy > actress who plays her. Another of those in-jokes, I guess. I wonder if LL suggested that line herself. > Gabrielle just doesn't seem to quite know what to > make of her Gab fan and is unimpressed with the writing on the TV series. And of course, Gab fancies herself as the bard par excellence... > They both are of the general opinion TPTB have got it wrong and though Xena > seems to enjoy seeing herself kiss Gabrielle - she is just a bit puzzled > over what the writers are saying about her and the bard's relationship. And again.... we all know very well TPTB's line on the 'relationship' and they're not above poking a bit of fun at their own reticence on the subject. But there's one big problem with their recovered memories (and it attracted notice in the ep, but they got it wrong: Polly: "Wow-- your memories are of the real Xena and Gabrielle, not just the ones we programmed you with." (Surprise is defintiely in order, IMO) Leah: "Yeah, that was the plan-- to stimulate their-- latent memories." Now that's wrong. Clones made from X and G's DNA (assuming the cloning process could reproduce them perfectly) would have *no* memories. If, in theory, one could have deep-frozen Xena and Gabs at the moment of their deaths (or as they were in the ice cave, or as happened to Cleopatra in Cleo 2525), *then* presumably their brains would have retained all memories. *But* DNA, as used in cloning, is a blueprint for constructing a person, and it's frozen at the time of their birth. It is *not* altered by anything that happens thereafter. (The theory that it could be, or more specifically that acquired physical characteristics can be inherited, is called Lamarckism, and while in some ways it's appealing, it is also completely impossible. I don't know of any theory that ever claimed memories could be physically inherited). So, what you would get is an exact physical duplicate, but blank, Xena and Gabrielle. If you fed into them *all* the experiences of the real Xena and Gabs (again, assuming this were possible, which in practical terms it isn't) you would presumably get out of it pretty exact mental duplicates of the originals, too. If you fed into them experiences which were essentially similar to the real thing, then your duplicates would just be fairly close. And so on. But there is *no way* that Xena and Gabs could 'remember' that some detail was wrong. The most they could have would be a feeling that they would not have behaved in quite the way portrayed, i.e. that something wasn't in character for them. OK, so I'm nitpicking, just like a typical fan > As a puzzled Gabrielle watches her partner wander away, Alexis draw her > aside. Alexis says she is afraid that they have awaken Evil Xena. > Gabrielle says that explains it - what "it"is is difficult to see. Yes > Xena seems a bit cruder than usual but she never was the most genteel lady > in the room so why Gabrielle suddenly agrees that Xena is now possibly evil > is a little hard to understand. Just 'woken up', I'm not entirely surprised she feels a little unsure of things, or is willing to believe what a reassuring authority figure tells her. > Nevertheless she follows Alexis outside to > discuss the Xena problem. There the police meet the two. It seems Alexis > has called the cops telling them Gabrielle was a nutcase who broke into the > lab. Gabrielle tries to explain that she is a clone, which oddly doesn't > prove her sanity to the police. When they try to arrest her, Gabrielle > draws her sais. As the cops pull their gins Alexis reminds Gabby how > deadly modern weapons are. And the female cop was the *exact same one* that tried to arrest Cleopatra and Hel when they ventured back to year 2000 LA from the future in Cleo 2525!!! Who says TPTB haven't got continuity? ;-) > Back at the lab Xena has returned from the powder room to find Gabby > missing. Alexis tells her that the local warlords have carried Gabrielle > off and that they are holding her just out the front door turn left and two > miles down the street. Xena is off to the rescue but not before Alexis > gives her the real chakram. As an armed and dangerous Xena dashes off to > the warlords' lair, the Xenites demand an explanation. Alexis has put Xena > on a path that will lead into direct conflict with authority and that is a > bad beginning for their new hero. Yes says Alexis that is exactly right. > Suddenly Alexis's voice gets lower and - shazam - Alexis is revealed as > Alti. Xena was forgotten but suddenly the TV series resurrected her and > now she's a hero. Alti hates this. She wants to destroy Xena's reputation, > turn society against her and thus bring back the evil Xena who will be in > her power (evil laugh). > > > > Meanwhile Xena has indeed come into conflict with the authorities. Xena > has busted Gabrielle out of jail and has caused havoc in the streets and > zoos of Los Angles. Unfortunately the audience doesn't get to see the > havoc, we a merely told about it through newscasts and eyewitness accounts. > The one interview with the slacker at the zoo was funny but it would have > been better to have some footage of Xena taking LA apart piece by piece. I > assume finances we the reason we didn't get these scenes, after all Rob was > going to be in need of a whole mess of arrows and samurais in the near > future. > > > > Alti with the Xenites in tow goes off to find Xena. In a junkyard, Xena, > of many skills, is busy using modern day tools to fashion herself a great > big sword. The sword she had was just a prop and she is unimpressed with > guns. Gabrielle is not pleased at the havoc Xena has wrought on the modern > world while breaking her out of the city dungeon. Xena is unrepentant. > Just then Alti drives up in her sporty car. She approaches Xena and tries > to win her to her side by reminding her of her evil ways. When Gabrielle > tries to interfere, Alti reminds Xena of Chin and Solan. Gabrielle however > counters with the good Xena has done and what they have meant to each > other. Gabby wins. Xena and Alti fight and Gabby hustles the Xenites to > safety. The fight is pretty good - they make pretty good use of the old > cars and the errant electrical cables in their fight. I particularly like > the one move Xena did when she dropped onto a car roof and flip sideways to > kick Alti in the head. Eventually Xena knocks Alti into a car that has an > electrical cable lying across it and Alti is, once again, blown to > smithereens. This explosion ignites some flammable liquids and the Xenites > are in danger of blowing up. Xena and Gabrielle manage to rescue them but > appear doomed as the gasoline explodes. > > > > The Xenites are now safe but they are bereft of their clones. As the walk > down the road they take solace in the fact that the real Xena and Gabrielle > weren't as dynamic as the TV characters. I think this was more of a dig at TPTB themselves than at the fans, actually. I'm sure TPTB knew how fanatical some of the fans were. > Mac says they can try again with > another TV character because he has a toenail from Dr. Spock (since he says > he is a former Trekie he obviously means Mr. Spock unless he actually wants > to clone the baby doctor). LEAH: You were a Trekkie? MAC: Yeah LEAH: You really are a nerd. MAC: Hey, I'm--I'm not--not proud of it, okay? Cracked me up! :) > As the Xenites walk off into the sunset > lamenting that no one at any convention will believe them, a cab passes by. > In the backseat are clone Xena and Gabrielle drinking Champaign and going > off to start a new life in the City of Angles. Nice touch, that. I really liked that ending. > Overall not a bad episode. The Xenites were for the most part written > pretty well. Clea the Gab fan was pretty good - she had it right - the > subtext, the preference for longhaired Gabby, even the favorite episode, > OAAA. Nauseating, isn't it? > Polly the Xenafan was good too - Xena fans are a bit more action > oriented but they too have subtext leanings so her distain of subtext > wasn't quite on the mark. Well, I disagree. Not *all* have subtext leanings, not even the female ones. I also know a number of Gabfans who are emphatically *not* subtexters. I agree the 'typical' Gabfan on the lists appears to be a subtexter, but that certainly doesn't mean that they all are. I'd also guess (and it's no more than that) that there are rather more Xenafans than Gabfans who aren't subtexters. But anyway, TPTB presumably wanted to show all sides of the fandom - the Gabfan was a subtexter, ergo they made the Xenafan a non-subtexter. Quite logical and believable. > Mac however didn't ring true. He seems to be > more of a spoof of the Treker syndrome. Agreed. Actually, he was a Trekker originally, as the script mentioned. But not typical of the male XWP fans I know. > I have never found male fans to be that fixated on Xena's bosoms Agreed, again. But Xena's midriff, now..... [returns to gazing raptly at his screensaver of Xena in the bikini in the forge in FIN....] > or for that matter to be Joxer fans. Joxer fans usually are women not men. I think I'd agree there. Again, only on average, and presumably TPTB wanted a male and a Joxerfan so Mac got the job. > Now a few fans were insulted by their > portrayal in this episode. Now you have to remember the people who made > gentle fun of us in this episode were not so gentle with themselves in the > Herc episodes Yes, Virginia There Is A Hercules and the other one. So if > they can ridicule themselves they can tease the fans a bit. Can I absolutely agree with you on that one? In fact I'll stick my neck out and say that any fan who was offended has a large ego and zero sense of humour. (I actually thought carefully before I wrote that statement and I can't think of any of the fans whose opinions I value who would be offended by it). And that goes for Soul Possession too. In fact, insofar as I recognised any of the fannish symptoms they portrayed on screen, in myself or others I know, I found them hilarious. > My only real > criticism of the Xenites here were lady fans just didn't quite look right - > they were a little too young, a little too thin, and their hair was too > long but they were intelligent just like real Xena fans (let's see how much > trouble I caused here - may I remind you all I am not too young or thin and > have short hair that is turning platinum with time). > Now my real complaint was that this was a Xena and Gabrielle light episode. > As much as I enjoy Allison Wall, Claire Stanisfield and the rest, I prefer > to watch LL and ROC. Well, it was the annual clip show. And like almost all RenPics clipshows, it was so good, it puts all other series' clipshows in the shade. In fact it's not in the same class, not even in the same county as other series' clipshows. Their typical clipshow is a group of the cast, on some thin pretext, saying to each other 'Do you remember.....' RenPics clipshows are proper episodes in themselves, and usually (Athens Academy being the only exception IMO) the new material is so good, that I mentally skip over the clips to get to the next bit of the story. > For me the episode didn't take off until Xena and > Gabrielle showed up. LL was really good as Xena - chowing down on pizza, > cheering on her doppelganger kissing Gabrielle and generally being a danger > to modern society. Reckon LL enjoyed the chance to be a public menace? ;) > ROC didn't have a lot to do here but I loved her > sidelong glances at her devoted fan - she looked as if she couldn't figure > out if Clea was just a harmless lunatic or if she posed a real danger. Or maybe a little flattered that someone would hero-worship her? ;) > So > on the whole it was a nice inside joke for the fans and it had a clever > idea that has spawned some interesting fan fiction. > > That's it for this week. I loved it. And thanks for the review, as always. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:40:48 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > " Well, strictly speaking, I don't think TPTB intended there to be any > 'alternative endings' for the series. Though of course, if indivi\dual fans > want to look at it that way, it's 'whatever floats your boat'. But [he > says, looking svere] it ain't canon. " Well I guess I have been pursuaded that there are alternative endings but I agree that there was only one real ending. However I do think TPTB tried to make sure that everyone knew there were still somekind of Xena and Gabbys out there. > "Interesting - which tomb is that? Ares' tomb? But why would Xena or Gabs > be buried there? And anyway, Xena was cremated in FIN - no hair left. > Of course, hair doesn't need to have been preserved after death, maybe if > some contemporary Xena-groupie had filched some of X and G's hair at the time > and left it in whatever tomb it was....." Well if Gabrielle had a tomb it would be entirely possible that she was buried with a lock of Xena 's hair. People often kept locks of hair from deceased family members so it is possible Gabby took a lock of Xena's hair before cremating her. Amarice did in Fallen Angel remember. > "An interesting scientific discovery on the news tonight - an Oxford scientist > has found 2000-year-old DNA from a cave in South Island, thought to come from > moa (huge flightless bird) droppings. It was previously believed that DNA > would not survive nearly that long. So, DNA *can* survive 2000 years." I saw something once about Cheddar man and that they got DNA from him and matched to some school teacher who was still teaching in Cheddar. Cheddar man was older than 2000 wasn't he. > > > " This of course is why Polly had to be a non-subtexter. Besides which (and > this is another of those delightful in-jokes - the fans weren't the only ones > they were sending up in this ep) isn't Polly Baigent one of Lucy's action > doubles / stunties?" I know she was Lucy's stand-in I think. Possibably a stuntie. > . > "I was quite amused by the typical fannish argument (in which I love to > indulge) about the trivial details of each scene. The only thing not quite > right was having them quote 'Series 4, Episode 7' where we would all say > 'Locked Up and Tied Down' (or if we *really* wanted to be arcane, 'Shark > Island Prison'). But I guess they also have to cater to the non-fans who > tune in, obviously, and 'S4 Ep 7' has an obvious meaning to everybody." You're right true fans know episode titles so the Xenites would have used the titles. > . > "And of course, Gab fancies herself as the bard par excellence..." Big sigh - we will not go there again (Gabby was a good writer!) > " Polly: "Wow-- your memories are of the real Xena and Gabrielle, not just the > ones we programmed you with." > (Surprise is defintiely in order, IMO) > Leah: "Yeah, that was the plan-- to stimulate their-- latent memories." > > Now that's wrong. Clones made from X and G's DNA (assuming the cloning > process could reproduce them perfectly) would have *no* memories. " You are right of course. The clones would be blank - they also would have been babies I think. However since Alti is involved perhaps she did some kind of magic so that once the physical Xena and Gabrielle were recreated she could give them their real memories. > "Just 'woken up', I'm not entirely surprised she feels a little unsure of > things, or is willing to believe what a reassuring authority figure tells her." Hadn't thought of that. Alexis did seem benevolent and certainly less bizzar than the Xenites. SO I guess Gabby's trust is logical. > > "And the female cop was the *exact same one* that tried to arrest Cleopatra > and Hel when they ventured back to year 2000 LA from the future in Cleo > 2525!!! > > Who says TPTB haven't got continuity? ;-)" Well as a cop she must be on the loon patrol. > "Well, I disagree. Not *all* have subtext leanings, not even the female > ones. I also know a number of Gabfans who are emphatically *not* > subtexters." Yeah you're right - I guess I just know more subtexters than non-subtexters. Perhaps what we really needed here was a shipper represented here. > > > " Agreed, again. But Xena's midriff, now..... [returns to gazing > raptly at his screensaver of Xena in the bikini in the forge in FIN....]" Ah I stand corrected - they are fixated on Xena more notable physical attributes - but they are nice attributes so who can blame the little darlings. > > "Can I absolutely agree with you on that one? In fact I'll stick my neck out > and say that any fan who was offended has a large ego and zero sense of > humour. (I actually thought carefully before I wrote that statement and I > can't think of any of the fans whose opinions I value who would be offended > by it). And that goes for Soul Possession too. " Well know if someone can be offended by something someone will be. Actually I think the complaints came from the same crew that were always perpetually ticked at Rob and company. > " In fact, insofar as I recognised any of the fannish symptoms they portrayed > on screen, in myself or others I know, I found them hilarious. " I saw myself there once or twice _ I however an quite serious when I said I have almost every piece of memorabilia that the Xentes had. > > " Well, it was the annual clip show. And like almost all RenPics clipshows, > it was so good, it puts all other series' clipshows in the shade. In fact > it's not in the same class, not even in the same county as other series' > clipshows. Their typical clipshow is a group of the cast, on some thin > pretext, saying to each other 'Do you remember.....' RenPics clipshows > are proper episodes in themselves, and usually (Athens Academy being the only > exception IMO) the new material is so good, that I mentally skip over the > clips to get to the next bit of the story." Yes Xena's clip shows were always interesting and well done. They were never throw aways even Athens Academy tried to tell a stand alone story within the clip show frame work. In my opinion teh best one was Forget Me Not simply because the clips show was important in resolving issues from the rift, This one however was ver clever too. > " Reckon LL enjoyed the chance to be a public menace? ;)" Well I think LL has it in herself to be a public menace if she so desired. > . > "Or maybe a little flattered that someone would hero-worship her? ;)" Franly she didn't look flattered she just looked perplexed. Then again perhaps she was just a little disappointed her fan appeared to be insane. > > > I loved it. And thanks for the review, as always. My pleasure! Cheryl A ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:59:02 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: re: [chakram-refugees] > In the backseat are clone Xena and Gabrielle drinking Champaign and going > off to start a new life in the City of Angles. //Nice touch, that. I really liked that ending. I always thought the champagne-glass-toast scene was a homage to The Avengers. In the Diana Rigg episodes, the opening theme always ended with Rigg and Patrick MacNee (Peel and Steed) clinking champagne glasses together. Steed and Emma had the same are-they-or-aren't-they kind of possible subtext as Xena and Gabrielle. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:40:13 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 12 May 2003 10:40, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > " Well, strictly speaking, I don't think TPTB intended there to be any > > > 'alternative endings' for the series. Though of course, if indivi\dual > > fans > > > want to look at it that way, it's 'whatever floats your boat'. But [he > > says, looking svere] it ain't canon. " > > Well I guess I have been pursuaded that there are alternative endings but I > agree that there was only one real ending. However I do think TPTB tried > to make sure that everyone knew there were still somekind of Xena and > Gabbys out there. They certainly did. Umm, Between The Lines, Xena Scrolls, Deja Vu / Soul Possession, Clones. Not Armageddon Now (since Iolaus destroyed that timeline when he saved Alcmene), nor WFC (since Gabs wiped that timeline and 'collapsed' it back into the regular timeline, I think. Ares is still alive too, of course, and Herc who is currently posing as Kevin Sorbo, actor. > "Interesting - which tomb is that? Ares' tomb? But why would Xena or > Gabs > > > be buried there? And anyway, Xena was cremated in FIN - no hair left. > > Of course, hair doesn't need to have been preserved after death, maybe if > > some contemporary Xena-groupie had filched some of X and G's hair at the > > time > > > and left it in whatever tomb it was....." > > Well if Gabrielle had a tomb it would be entirely possible that she was > buried with a lock of Xena 's hair. People often kept locks of hair from > deceased family members so it is possible Gabby took a lock of Xena's hair > before cremating her. Amarice did in Fallen Angel remember. Yes, very possibly so. Also possible that Amarice wasn't killed in the raid (though whether she'd still have Xena's hair in her possession after all that time and battles is uncertain). Still, she could still be around after Xena died and met up with Gabs..... I rather like that idea. And this is leaving aside anything that may have happened with Gabs and Xena Warrior Pot in the Land of the Pharaohs..... > "An interesting scientific discovery on the news tonight - an Oxford > scientist > has found 2000-year-old DNA from a cave in South Island, thought to come > from > moa (huge flightless bird) droppings. It was previously believed that > DNA > would not survive nearly that long. So, DNA *can* survive 2000 years." > > I saw something once about Cheddar man and that they got DNA from him and > matched to some school teacher who was still teaching in Cheddar. Cheddar > man was older than 2000 wasn't he. Very likely. The news item was, specifically, that it was not thought that DNA could survive _in soil_ (my emphasis) for that long. So, I may have missed part of the plot there ;) Hmmm, I've got some Cheddar cheese in the back of my fridge that must be nearly as old.... does cheese have DNA? ;) Anyway, obviously DNA can survive that long, one way or another. So that part of the plot of Clones is quite credible. What would be more problematic is identification. Be too bad if they did their magic with the hair and what popped out was Najara and Varia > "And of course, Gab fancies herself as the bard par excellence..." > > Big sigh - we will not go there again (Gabby was a good writer!) I was just referring to it as background to her criticism of the writers. Of course, TPTB were referring obliquely to a number of things, not least the occasional squawks on mailing lists about 'bad writing'. > " Polly: "Wow-- your memories are of the real Xena and Gabrielle, not just > the> > > ones we programmed you with." > > (Surprise is defintiely in order, IMO) > > Leah: "Yeah, that was the plan-- to stimulate their-- latent memories." > > > > Now that's wrong. Clones made from X and G's DNA (assuming the cloning > > process could reproduce them perfectly) would have *no* memories. " > > You are right of course. The clones would be blank - they also would have > been babies I think. However since Alti is involved perhaps she did some > kind of magic so that once the physical Xena and Gabrielle were recreated > she could give them their real memories. Yes, I think clones would have to be produced, in fact, as embryos and develop from there. So far as I know that's how DNA-guided development happens and you can't cut out that stage. But of course Alti's super-science may have managed to shorten that developmental period dramatically. OK, so we're bending the realities of cloning a little bit. I forgive them. :) > "Just 'woken up', I'm not entirely surprised she feels a little unsure of > things, or is willing to believe what a reassuring authority figure tells > her." > > Hadn't thought of that. Alexis did seem benevolent and certainly less > bizzar than the Xenites. SO I guess Gabby's trust is logical. Hmm, yes, it's odd to think of Alti being *less* scary than the fans > "And the female cop was the *exact same one* that tried to arrest Cleopatra > and Hel when they ventured back to year 2000 LA from the future in Cleo > 2525!!! > Who says TPTB haven't got continuity? ;-)" > > Well as a cop she must be on the loon patrol. I cracked up when I spotted that! I wonder if TPTB did it deliberately? The neat thing is that, for once, it fits perfectly into the timeline of *both* shows. I can just imagine TPTB saying "Yeah, let's use the same cop and see if anyone notices" ;) As for the loon patrol, I imagine LA probably really has one of those. > "Well, I disagree. Not *all* have subtext leanings, not even the female > ones. I also know a number of Gabfans who are emphatically *not* > subtexters." > > Yeah you're right - I guess I just know more subtexters than > non-subtexters. Perhaps what we really needed here was a shipper > represented here. Hmm, yes, they missed that. I guess they couldn't fit in a representative of every point of view - though they did try to have Mac represent both the non-subtext and the T&A points of view, not altogether successfully, since some viewers saw a contradiction between "If you start talking about subtext, I'm gonna barf." and "If you're talkin' about their special relationship, I'm into that. Just let me watch." The contradiction was more apparent than real, Mac wasn't interested in the romance but he was definitely interested in the physical side of things. Of course us non-subtexters are not necessarily interested in the T&A factor, we watch the show for the drama, of course. > " Agreed, again. But Xena's midriff, now..... [returns to gazing > raptly at his screensaver of Xena in the bikini in the forge in FIN....]" ... or then again.... > Ah I stand corrected - they are fixated on Xena more notable physical > attributes - but they are nice attributes so who can blame the little > darlings. It has been fifty years since anyone called me that. And then I bit their ankle. Hard. ;) > "Can I absolutely agree with you on that one? In fact I'll stick my neck > out > and say that any fan who was offended has a large ego and zero sense of > humour. (I actually thought carefully before I wrote that statement and I > can't think of any of the fans whose opinions I value who would be > offended by it). And that goes for Soul Possession too. " > > Well know if someone can be offended by something someone will be. > Actually I think the complaints came from the same crew that were always > perpetually ticked at Rob and company. > > " In fact, insofar as I recognised any of the fannish symptoms they > portrayed > on screen, in myself or others I know, I found them hilarious. " > > I saw myself there once or twice _ I however an quite serious when I said I > have almost every piece of memorabilia that the Xentes had. I'm not into memorabilia. I don't own any half-eaten pieces of pizza. (Though I do own some props). OTOH I suppose one could regard scouring the countryside trying to identify where every location scene was shot as, umm, slightly unusual behaviour. Still [he says defensively], I didn't travel 12000 miles to do it. :) > " Well, it was the annual clip show. And like almost all RenPics > clipshows, > it was so good, it puts all other series' clipshows in the shade. In > fact > it's not in the same class, not even in the same county as other series' > clipshows." I meant that, of course, in a good way. :) > "Their typical clipshow is a group of the cast, on some thin > pretext, saying to each other 'Do you remember.....' RenPics > clipshows are proper episodes in themselves, and usually (Athens Academy > being the only > exception IMO) the new material is so good, that I mentally skip over the > clips to get to the next bit of the story." > > Yes Xena's clip shows were always interesting and well done. They were > never throw aways even Athens Academy tried to tell a stand alone story > within the clip show frame work. In my opinion teh best one was Forget Me > Not simply because the clips show was important in resolving issues from > the rift, This one however was ver clever too. FMN was actually a more serious clipshow, and hence I found it not quite as much fun as most. However, it was ground-breaking for a clipshow in respect that it *did* advance the overall story of the series, which is another thing that other people's clipshows never do. (At least, I think they don't., but then I never watch them). > "Or maybe a little flattered that someone would hero-worship her? ;)" > > Franly she didn't look flattered she just looked perplexed. Then again > perhaps she was just a little disappointed her fan appeared to be insane. ROTFL!! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:38:49 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] www.hobbitontours.com An article in the travel section of my paper today told of a company that provides tours to the Hobbiton set for Lord of the Rings in New Zealand. web site -- www.hobbitontours.com They also mentioned a book -- Ian Brodie's Lord of the Rings Location Book, which tells travelers how to find the Hobbiton set, the Helm's Deep set and other LOTR sites. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:57:50 EDT From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re; [Chakram-refugees] /Yes, I think clones would have to be produced, in fact, as embryos and /develop from there. So far as I know that's how DNA-guided development /happens and you can't cut out that stage. But of course Alti's /super-science may have managed to shorten that developmental period /dramatically. I'm sure I remember a line in which Alti said something like "The maturation acceleration process worked wonderfully" to explain why Xena and G weren't babies. And I don't think it was her super- science, it was the fans'. That's what Alti needed the fans for. She certainly didn't need them for anything else. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 13:40:01 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re; [Chakram-refugees] On Monday 12 May 2003 12:57, KLOSSNER9@aol.com wrote: > /Yes, I think clones would have to be produced, in fact, as embryos and > /develop from there. So far as I know that's how DNA-guided development > /happens and you can't cut out that stage. But of course Alti's > /super-science may have managed to shorten that developmental period > /dramatically. > > I'm sure I remember a line in which Alti said something like "The > maturation acceleration process worked wonderfully" to explain > why Xena and G weren't babies. And I don't think it was her super- > science, it was the fans'. That's what Alti needed the fans for. > She certainly didn't need them for anything else. > > Boeotian Oooh, hairs to split! May I? :) You're right about the maturation acceleration process, but it seems to have been Alexis's. Reading the transcript, Mac's role was producng the DVD's to program the clones with: Alexis: "They need to be on digital discs. When we transfer there can't be any dropping of--" Mac: "Alexis, uh-- this is my field. I'm the computer nerd, remember? I know what I'm doing." Leah was the psychologist: Alexis: "Do you have a balanced selection?" Mac: "Personally, I'd like to see more Joxer stuff." Alexis: "Look, any disagreements will be settled by Lea. She's working with us because of her knowledge of psychological profiles. You'll defer to her." Polly was a Doctor ( = scientist?) of some sort, though her role was undefined: Alexis: "And the rest of the team, has it come together? Do you have Dr. Polly?" Mac: "Yes." Alexis: "Great. Three of you meet me here in 72 hours." It's possible that Polly was collaborating with Alexis in the DNA cloning, but the transcript suggests that Alexis played the lead role: Leah: "Well?! Did it work?!" Mac: "Please, tell us what we want to hear, Alexis!" Polly: "The DNA in the hair, was it-- ?" Alexis: "Everthing we hoped for. Maturation acceleration worked beyond my wildest dreams. Now-- see for yourselves." and.. Leah: "So, your man in Macedonia really came through, huh?" Alexis: "He promised me 2 strands of hair from the tomb of the scrolls-- and he delivered. My carbon testing shows the hairs to be between 2- and 3000 years old." So, what Alti needed the fans for was, principally, to help compile the material to program the clones. In which their knowledge of portions of the saga presumably unknown to her, was useful. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #127 **************************************