From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #125 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, May 9 2003 Volume 03 : Number 125 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Cheryl's reviews [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon and Back [cr ] Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon and Back [Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Cheryl's reviews On Thursday 08 May 2003 03:51, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > > Anyway, please continue your reviews. They are very much > appreciated. > > Thy will continue as lonas I'm not boring anyone and even if I am. Perhaps > the sixth season ends we'll just start over again. > > Cheryl A Might as well. I'm game for another lap. By then I will have forgotten what I wrote in comments on your SotP review and hopefully so will everybody else. But you'll have to gag me when you reach OAAA since I'm sure everyone on this list knows my opinions on that one by heart ;-) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:06:11 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon and Back On Thursday 08 May 2003 05:23, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > From: IfeRae@aol.com > > Yay! She's baaaaackk! (About time ) > > Yeap my computer is back from the hospital. Not quite up to par but > functional - so far. > > > "Oh, excellent observation! I too enjoyed the character turnabouts in > this, > but not in the context of The Price." > > Yes The Price always springs to mind when I see this episode. It puts > Gabrielle where Xena was in that episode. It isn't a remake in any way and > Gabrielle doesn't decend into the dark exactly like Xena but she certainly > does things that sher herself finds morally suspect. > > "Yes, that was my impression, too, tho it seems to me they did it in season > 5. Anybody recall another time? At any rate, I wondered how intentional > that was, given how often the two had fought together previously." > > Well that observation was made previously by someone else. At that time > they menetioned they fought in manner similar to Herc and Iolus. Now since > Michael Hurst directed this episode I'm sure it was intentional. It > certainly made the point that these two were now equals and that reforces > her position amoung the Amazons as a leader in her own right and not merely > as Xena's sidekick. > > > "Whaddya mean, "I assume Xena is familiar." *Of course* she is! She's > familiar with *everything*. Probably showed somebody how to build the > fort > 35 winters ago. " > > AH HA! That's whyshe knows the defences face inland not out to sea. > Someone should have reminded her things change in 35 or 36 years. Am I nitpicking if I say that, in that case, it would have to have been the only castle ever built on a coastline that *didn't* have defences on the seaward side.... ;) > > > "Hmmm, I thought she did the most practical thing, seeing as how Bellybaby > wasn't that easy to kill. I'll have to review that ... someday. " > > Nope I think killing Belly was really important. He was a hard kill but > Xena could have handled him - in fact she did eventually. Stopping the > bombardment was more important for Gabrielle's and her troops survival than > Xena's moral support. Now while I'm at this brings up a point - if Xena > could blow-up the catapults with chakram once why didn't she just continue > to do it? Out of ammo? > > "Oh, I absolutely agree. Xena wants to relate to Gabrielle as her friend, > but Gabrielle doesn't want or need that then. Lucy shows so much in her > brief expression, ending in a resolve to honor Gabrielle as a leader. One > othe things I liked most about seaons 4 and 6 was how much Xena was forced > to listen to and react to Gabrielle, when usually it's the other way > around." > > That is the most subtle change that Xena goes through. She becomes not > only symapthetic but empathic to others. The old Xena never cared about > other's motives or reasons for what they did. She wanted them to either > obey her or she'd make them. Now Xena tries to understand people- she > understands Belly, Vari, and Gabrielle and tries to use that knowledge to > change their behavior. It fails with Belleraphon but she gave it a try. > Season 1 Xena would have just killed Belleraphon - she never would have > pleaded with him to change. Woulda saved a lot of Amazons, though. OK, enough with the one-liners. :) Sometimes, the ruthless decisive thing is the right thing to do. (As cande was arguing about Gabs' decision to leave the wounded behind, though I don't necessarily agree with her about that one). I guess the really difficult thing is to know when to do the ruthless thing and when to give talk a chance - if one can ever tell. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:56:05 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 08 May 2003 03:13, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: cr > Sent: 05/06/03 06:04 AM > > Should I comment? Seeing as how I like this episode just slightly better > than One Against an Army.... ah well, Cheryl posted her review, I'll > make some remarks :) > > Well that's what me and the list wait for - your comments. Ah well, this is the Xenaverse, it thrives on conflict doesn't it? > Those snotty Amazons! As if, one way or another, Xena didn't have more > impact on the Amazon nation than every single one of their Queens put > together. (And that includes itinerant relieving Queen Gabrielle! ;) > > Yes well the Amazons have always had an ambievelent attitude twards Xena. > They always look to her to save their bacon and then resent her for it - at > least some do. She was however well liked by them in Kindred Spirits and > certainly in The Quset the honored with an Amazon funeral, which she > refused to attend. Perhaps they never got over her hasty exit from the > funeral fire via Autolycus. Yes, maybe so. They were certainly very put out at the time. Ephiny was one of the few Amazon leaders who whole-heartedly approved of Xena. Yakut, I think, was another, and possibly Marga. > They're supposed to be a warrior tribe.... haven't they heard of such a > thing as lookouts? Just in case the Romans come back (again), for > example.... > > This the most annoying thing to me about this episode. They have a history > of being caught off guard by attackers yet they never post lookouts or > guards. Well no we know why they vanished - the simply were surprised one > too many time. This however seems to have been a Greek problem. You > notice the Northern Amazons seemed to have pretty good idea of who was > snooping around their camps (AITST 1 and KS). Yes. Actually I liked the Sin Trade Ewokazons best of any of the tribes. (Which is very odd because usually I can't stand cute kids). I think maybe it was because, though they were kids, they were written as young adults with all the cutesiness left out. > Okay, so I know it's a plot device to get Gabs to make the Tough > Decisions, > but last time in Endgame there didn't seem to be a problem... Xena did > the > strategising and Gabs rubber-stamped it, and it worked fine against a > whole > Roman army. This time, presumably, Xena let Gabrielle gain some > experience > in command. I suppose it would be unkind to compare the casualty lists > and > attribute it to the respective commanders . Hey, I didn't write > the > script. :) > > To give Gabby her do she tried, at least twice, to give command to Xena and > her strategy was approved by Xena. Gabrielle didn't do anything Xena did > not approve of and Xena certainly was in the midst of planning the > campaign. Well yes. As I said, if Xena had run the campaign, I would still have found it hard to credit. You will recall I have a similar problem with Xena's strategy in OAAA. > Yeah, howcome? Xena doesn't make mistakes. Usually. > > This doesn't make a lot of sense. Xena can't really help the Amazons in > the water. She could help by killing Belleraphon and disabling the > catapults. She is Xena she could do this I'm sure. Her emotions seemed to > have run away with her good judgement. Yes, I agree. This is one thing I find out of character for Xena in this ep, at least so far as the miltary-strategist part of her character is concerned. > We assume Gabs' legendary sea-sickness is overcome by the tension and the > concentration required. That can happen. > > Yep that's what I thought too. She just didn't think about it. > > > Yet, was it any more unwise or ruthless than Gabs' intention to leave the > wounded behind? And, since we're speculating, I would submit, it might > have > forced the Amazons to accept Xena's leadership (and forced Xena to take > over), and considering the standard of generalship up to that point, it > could > only have been an improvement... ;) > > Well the difference is that Gabrielle's ruthlessness is tempered by her > willingness to announce her intentions and her willingness to listen to > counter arguments. Varia simply goes off on her own and does what she what > whe wants without thinking. If Varia killed Gabrielle the last thing she > would want would be Xena taking command. Belleraphon's deal I am sure > would have included Varia retreatin and Xena would not have done that, > especially with Gabrielle killed persumably by Belleraphon (I don't think > Varia would hopped up and down yelling "I killed Gabrielle" once the deed > was done.) As for Gabrielle's ruthlessness the decision is actually sound. > Carrying the wounded did cause the troops to be threatened by sharks and > it probably did slow them down. Gabrielle made the same decision Xena made > in The Price - sacrifice the ones who can't fight in order to save the ones > who can. Hmm, I wsn't thinking of what Varia might have wanted, but what might have resulted. > I don't think Gabs had the authority to do that. Place her under arrest, > maybe, but I would have thought only the council of queens could do that. > > Well actually the council of queens at this point consists of Cyan and > Gabrielle. Cyan wants to kill Varia at this point and Gabrielle wants her > deposed. I would say Varia is lucky to be just out of a job. Hmm, weren't there any other queens back at the camp? What happened to the other queens in Path of Vengeance? > > The Amazon's finally make it to the forest. > > Where they should have been in the first place..... > > > Well this the fact I find puzzeling. If you can reach the forest by sea > and way why didn't they do that in the first place. Perhaps the plan never > was to land at the beach at all. The taking of beach seemed to have been > caused by the sinking of the ship. In the water Gabby says: "we'll take > the beach" not "we'll take the beach anyway". I don't think it ever was the > plan to storm the castle or lay seige to it. The Amazons were suppose > sneak up on it and presumably Xena having killed the leader probably was > going to let them in. The forest may have been their original destination > but to get to it by sea and nt land. Hmm, yes, that's a possibility. I will say that I would be more accepting of their disaster on the beach if the script had made it apparent that they ended up there through, either, accident or a very cunning scheme of Bellerophon's, rather than the intentional attack it appears to be. > Biiig mistake. IMO. Wasn't SPR about the Normandy landings? (I > haven't > seen it). Okay, so the homage had to have a landing across a beachhead. > > Never mind that Amazons are quite unsuited to it. > > Yes I think this was a homage to SPR which is about Normandy and a great > movie (it was the last movie I saw with my dad and he was impressed with > the realism especially how loud the tanks were - he seemed to remember that > especially from the war). However I think actuall the sistuation seemed > more like Gallipoli (spelling). Troops stuck on a seacoast as artillary > pounded the from above. Certainly this would be a very familar scenario > for New Zealanders much more so than Normandy. Well, actually, no. That is to say, first the ep was written by an American for an American audience (i.e. non-Kiwi), so I wouln't expect any particular similarity to Gallipoli. Second, Normandy would be as familiar to Kiwis as Gallipolli, simply because Kiwis fought in WW2 more recently than WW1, and the international media (i.e. movies and TV programmes) just naturally deal with Normandy 100 times as often as Gallipoli. Anzio also comes to mind. I'm happily hair-splitting here, btw ;) > Such as....? That only works when you have a massive superiority in > strength and equipment. > 'Whatever happens, we have got > the Maxim gun, and they have not' > > Well I wasn't impress with the stratgey in Iraq and just where are the WMD > anyway that our intelligence said were all over the place. But yes we had > massive superiority so henece our easy vistory. The Amazons however had > the "Maxim gun" and it was Xena. It just wan't used the way it should > have. Yes, I agree, Xena should have been much better used. I felt the plot was twisted from its logical course to provide some specific scenarios that the producers wanted to feature. > Well, obviously I don't care so much for 'character studies'. Which is > not > to say I don't care about the characters. I *do* like the characters to > be > believable and interesting, and the more so, the more the story interests > me. > What I don't care for is an ep with "This is a character study. Ignore > the > stupid plot" in six-inch high letters across the screen. Which this > might > as well have had. (Actually, in that respect, it has similarities with > OAAA and many of my gripes about OAAA apply also to this ep). > > > In order for the characters to be believable, the *situations* they're in > have to be believable. So unless they're trying to establish Gabby as > the > incompetent get-your-troops-killed klutz of the week, the idiocy of the > military tactics is so blatant, so obvious to anybody, that the intended > character study fails miserably. (This ain't just me tearing a strip off > > Gabby, I'd say exactly the same if Xena had been in command). And, > getting > to Xena - how is it in character for her? Xena is supposed to be an > experienced commander. The best, in fact. Howcome she lets Gabby get > most > of the Amazons killed without doing something about it? I just can't > credit > that. > > Well I can't argue the strategy at all. It was bad simply because none of > the main characters understood the real motivations of Bellerphon until it > was too late. Unfortunately from the Amazon point of view they had to move > quickly to recover their queen. Gabrielle developed a strategy that seemed > to be reasonable and she didn't do it alone - Xena was right there with her > agreeing. On the beach Gabrielle did a good job of getting her people off > the beach and into shelter. She did what she had to save as many people as > she could. War is afterall chaotic and the best you can do is control that > chaos. Things go wrong and you have to adjust and the Amazons and X & G > did and won in the end. At a great cost but they won in the end. Hmm, I can't see what motives Bellerophon might have had, that would have made the strategy any good. I think it is entirely possible to argue the strategy, actually. If the decisions are sufficiently strange to make an average non-strategically inclined viewer think 'that looks crazy' then I submit the strategy is seriously flawed. Maybe it's just that I'm not that fond of war movies. I know that may sound odd, coming from someone who thought the battle in FIN was great. I think maybe the beach attack in Helicon was just getting a little too close to modern reality, whereas Xena's final battle in FIN was well into the legendary mythical-hero genre. > I like Cyane as queen but I think she'll have to watch her back with Varia > around. > > Yes Varia is unstable at the best of times. Persoanally I would have voted > for not rescuring her at all. If I was an Amazon I would have suggested we > have a nice feast day in her name and elect Cyan as the new queen. That's *exactly* what I would have done ;) > Then > sent out some spies to find out who attacked the village and plotted a long > term plan to deal with Belleraphon. Fairly boring as TV I'ma afraid and > probably not very in tune with Amazon world view either. Obviously, I'm not either. I think we would have both been rapidly exiled from any Amazon tribe**. If something worse didn't happen to us (bloodthirsty lot in many ways, the Amazons). (** Quite aside from any gender-related difficulties I might have encountered ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 20:16:42 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 08 May 2003 08:22, Ann Reddecliffe wrote: > > One jarring note for me was when Bellerophon described her as "The Great > Varia". She had hardly had time to do the great deeds that make a warrior > the stuff of legends and song. Why did he think she deserved the title? > > [Perhaps he meant to say "great looking"?] > Bel: "So-- the great Varia. I'm guesssing this is not how you planned on spending your first day-- as queen of the Amazons." The dude was obviously being sarcastic. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:09:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon and Back Hi, cr posted: > OK, enough with the one-liners. :) Couldn't have said it better myself. Time for the monthly reminder about only quoting what you absolutely need to, I guess! By now I'm sure everyone knows it by heart so I don't have to type it all out again. Meredith meth@smoe.org ===== Meredith Tarr RWA meredith_tarr@yahoo.com Reply To: meredith.tarr@telethinking.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #125 **************************************