From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #124 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, May 8 2003 Volume 03 : Number 124 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] Re: Cheryl's reviews [cande@sunlink.net] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Cheryl's reviews [Meredith Tarr > ["Ann Reddecliffe" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:27:51 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 5/6/2003 4:30:56 PM Central Daylight Time, xjv05@dial.pipex.com writes: Cheryl wrote: > To Helicon and Back > This episode is one of my favorites simply because it is an episode that > explores the changes in Xena and Gabrielle's characters. This piece can be > seen as a companion piece to The Price. >> > > I actually see this differently, as a study in leadership and its costs. We > see all the self doubt and self questioning that goes with the territory. > The bit where X and G sit on the sand and have their "This is not who I am, > this is the queen of the Amazons talk" says so much about the dilemma. > Sometimes we have to achieve the right ends, but don't like the means. > > I see it as different from the Price. There Xena believes herself to be > right (even if she doesn't like it), but Gabrielle sees it as wrong. Here > both characters see their actions as necessary evils.>> I can see it from both your perspectives. Yes, it was definitely a study in the challenges of leadership. It was also a character study of two leaders who happened to have come to their roles differently, with different strengths and experiences. Both were reluctant leaders in "Price" and "Helicon." Both stepped up to the plate because they were the most appropriate to do so. Both made the hard choices and were open to correcting their mistakes. Both showed different as well as similar aspects about what we admired in these heroes. But more than all that, we got to see how these situations exacted a price and required support directly involving their relationship. We got to see how each helped the other get to the point where they could switch perspectives in order to achieve the right balance for making the best decisions -- still retaining the core of who they were. Gabrielle's chagrin at resorting to jeopardizing others was still related to her compassion. Xena's chagrin, I think, was related more to her usual priorities -- Gabrielle's soul and what made sense for the mission. I like Cheryl's idea about "Price" because the comparison adds so much in terms of looking at leadership not just as a role in itself, but in terms of the evolution in the personal and relationship aspects connected with leadership, as played out by these two characters. > There is an interesting exchange here between the characters. After > Gabrielle outlines her plan and her thinking, Xena says "Good call", and > Gabrielle replies "Good teacher". I was immediately struck by the scene in > FIN where they are dealing with the fire at Higuchi (or some such spelling) > and Xena asks Gabrielle for her plan there and then adopts it. It > definitely suggests some off camera teaching of battle tactics.>> I remember in "Good Day" how Xena basically says Gab has been around her enough to think like Xena would. No doubt Gab learned a lot simply by being around Xena, watching her, discussing the pros and cons. > Interestingly, the script has the roles reversed and it is Xena wanting to > leave the wounded behind and Gabrielle who wants to take them. I must > admit > that I think it works better as it was filmed.>> Oh, yes, I agree. > The speech that makes it to the screen is much better than the one in the > script. You can believe in the words on screen. How much of that is due > to > ROC is open for debate, but it worked for me.>> Yes, I liked the simplicity. I felt Gabrielle trusted the Amazons to understand what was at stake, to commit to it, without a lot of fake rah rah. > > In fact I think the script was well conceived, with nice character studies > and good interactions between the characters, but it reads as if it was > rushed in the writing. The great ideas were there, but things needed a bit > more reflection and maturing. It is good that some of the changes that > were > made were for the better.>> Yes, I think you have something there too. TPTB left a lot up to us as viewers to discern, as usual, but certainly in a big way this time. > I always wondered if Varia expectedd to "get away with it". Did she expect > everyone to know that she had killed Gabrielle? What did she think the > reaction of others would be?>> LOL! Good point! That Varia wasn't a particularly bright candle, was she? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:13:49 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - -------Original Message------- From: cr Sent: 05/06/03 06:04 AM Should I comment? Seeing as how I like this episode just slightly better than One Against an Army.... ah well, Cheryl posted her review, I'll make some remarks :) Well that's what me and the list wait for - your comments. Those snotty Amazons! As if, one way or another, Xena didn't have more impact on the Amazon nation than every single one of their Queens put together. (And that includes itinerant relieving Queen Gabrielle! ;) Yes well the Amazons have always had an ambievelent attitude twards Xena. They always look to her to save their bacon and then resent her for it - at least some do. She was however well liked by them in Kindred Spirits and certainly in The Quset the honored with an Amazon funeral, which she refused to attend. Perhaps they never got over her hasty exit from the funeral fire via Autolycus. They're supposed to be a warrior tribe.... haven't they heard of such a thing as lookouts? Just in case the Romans come back (again), for example.... This the most annoying thing to me about this episode. They have a history of being caught off guard by attackers yet they never post lookouts or guards. Well no we know why they vanished - the simply were surprised one too many time. This however seems to have been a Greek problem. You notice the Northern Amazons seemed to have pretty good idea of who was snooping around their camps (AITST 1 and KS). Okay, so I know it's a plot device to get Gabs to make the Tough Decisions, but last time in Endgame there didn't seem to be a problem... Xena did the strategising and Gabs rubber-stamped it, and it worked fine against a whole Roman army. This time, presumably, Xena let Gabrielle gain some experience in command. I suppose it would be unkind to compare the casualty lists and attribute it to the respective commanders . Hey, I didn't write the script. :) To give Gabby her do she tried, at least twice, to give command to Xena and her strategy was approved by Xena. Gabrielle didn't do anything Xena did not approve of and Xena certainly was in the midst of planning the campaign. Yeah, howcome? Xena doesn't make mistakes. Usually. This doesn't make a lot of sense. Xena can't really help the Amazons in the water. She could help by killing Belleraphon and disabling the catapults. She is Xena she could do this I'm sure. Her emotions seemed to have run away with her good judgement. We assume Gabs' legendary sea-sickness is overcome by the tension and the concentration required. That can happen. Yep that's what I thought too. She just didn't think about it. Yet, was it any more unwise or ruthless than Gabs' intention to leave the wounded behind? And, since we're speculating, I would submit, it might have forced the Amazons to accept Xena's leadership (and forced Xena to take over), and considering the standard of generalship up to that point, it could only have been an improvement... ;) Well the difference is that Gabrielle's ruthlessness is tempered by her willingness to announce her intentions and her willingness to listen to counter arguments. Varia simply goes off on her own and does what she what whe wants without thinking. If Varia killed Gabrielle the last thing she would want would be Xena taking command. Belleraphon's deal I am sure would have included Varia retreatin and Xena would not have done that, especially with Gabrielle killed persumably by Belleraphon (I don't think Varia would hopped up and down yelling "I killed Gabrielle" once the deed was done.) As for Gabrielle's ruthlessness the decision is actually sound. Carrying the wounded did cause the troops to be threatened by sharks and it probably did slow them down. Gabrielle made the same decision Xena made in The Price - sacrifice the ones who can't fight in order to save the ones who can. I don't think Gabs had the authority to do that. Place her under arrest, maybe, but I would have thought only the council of queens could do that. Well actually the council of queens at this point consists of Cyan and Gabrielle. Cyan wants to kill Varia at this point and Gabrielle wants her deposed. I would say Varia is lucky to be just out of a job. > The Amazon's finally make it to the forest. Where they should have been in the first place..... Well this the fact I find puzzeling. If you can reach the forest by sea and way why didn't they do that in the first place. Perhaps the plan never was to land at the beach at all. The taking of beach seemed to have been caused by the sinking of the ship. In the water Gabby says: "we'll take the beach" not "we'll take the beach anyway". I don't think it ever was the plan to storm the castle or lay seige to it. The Amazons were suppose sneak up on it and presumably Xena having killed the leader probably was going to let them in. The forest may have been their original destination but to get to it by sea and nt land. Biiig mistake. IMO. Wasn't SPR about the Normandy landings? (I haven't seen it). Okay, so the homage had to have a landing across a beachhead. Never mind that Amazons are quite unsuited to it. Yes I think this was a homage to SPR which is about Normandy and a great movie (it was the last movie I saw with my dad and he was impressed with the realism especially how loud the tanks were - he seemed to remember that especially from the war). However I think actuall the sistuation seemed more like Gallipoli (spelling). Troops stuck on a seacoast as artillary pounded the from above. Certainly this would be a very familar scenario for New Zealanders much more so than Normandy. Such as....? That only works when you have a massive superiority in strength and equipment. 'Whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun, and they have not' Well I wasn't impress with the stratgey in Iraq and just where are the WMD anyway that our intelligence said were all over the place. But yes we had massive superiority so henece our easy vistory. The Amazons however had the "Maxim gun" and it was Xena. It just wan't used the way it should have. Well, obviously I don't care so much for 'character studies'. Which is not to say I don't care about the characters. I *do* like the characters to be believable and interesting, and the more so, the more the story interests me. What I don't care for is an ep with "This is a character study. Ignore the stupid plot" in six-inch high letters across the screen. Which this might as well have had. (Actually, in that respect, it has similarities with OAAA and many of my gripes about OAAA apply also to this ep). In order for the characters to be believable, the *situations* they're in have to be believable. So unless they're trying to establish Gabby as the incompetent get-your-troops-killed klutz of the week, the idiocy of the military tactics is so blatant, so obvious to anybody, that the intended character study fails miserably. (This ain't just me tearing a strip off Gabby, I'd say exactly the same if Xena had been in command). And, getting to Xena - how is it in character for her? Xena is supposed to be an experienced commander. The best, in fact. Howcome she lets Gabby get most of the Amazons killed without doing something about it? I just can't credit that. Well I can't argue the strategy at all. It was bad simply because none of the main characters understood the real motivations of Bellerphon until it was too late. Unfortunately from the Amazon point of view they had to move quickly to recover their queen. Gabrielle developed a strategy that seemed to be reasonable and she didn't do it alone - Xena was right there with her agreeing. On the beach Gabrielle did a good job of getting her people off the beach and into shelter. She did what she had to save as many people as she could. War is afterall chaotic and the best you can do is control that chaos. Things go wrong and you have to adjust and the Amazons and X & G did and won in the end. At a great cost but they won in the end. I like Cyane as queen but I think she'll have to watch her back with Varia around. Yes Varia is unstable at the best of times. Persoanally I would have voted for not rescuring her at all. If I was an Amazon I would have suggested we have a nice feast day in her name and elect Cyan as the new queen. Then sent out some spies to find out who attacked the village and plotted a long term plan to deal with Belleraphon. Fairly boring as TV I'ma afraid and probably not very in tune with Amazon world view either. Good to see you back. I enjoyed - umm, commenting on your comments. ;) Ditto! ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:51:09 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Cheryl's reviews Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 01:16:27 EDT From: Wizdym4@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] re:Cheryl's reviews Salutations Cheryl! I'm hoping you were just kiddin' about not bein' sure if anyone appreciated your reviews of the Xena eps. They're my favorite part of the Chakram list. Sheesh!...I honestly treasure them! I'm trying to save'em by copyin' them and mailing them to myself...lol. Huh, I've even done that with other's commentaries on your reviews. Jeeze my shameless plea for attention worked better than I planned (g). I'm glad you are enjoying and saving them - wow. Well you'll probably be the only one to have them. Since by computer bit the dust I lost all that weren't Word files. I'm glad you have them maybe I could get a copy from you since I don't have them. My tact as you can see is not very sharp at all - if you stepped on me you wouldn't even notice. ! Btw, your last name Ande is interesting. Are you perhaps from South America? No. The name has mutated through time. I am Slovak-German-Welsh and perhaps Swedish (but don't count on that). The name was spelled by my grandfather as Andy but for some odd reason my father's first grade teacher thought it was French and spelled it Ande. My father thought it would be less confusing if he continued to spell it Ande and not Andy (it didn't work it is often spelled Andy or Andes if I'm not carefull to spell it to people.) The only South American connection is oddly enough on my mother's side (the Slovak side). Some relative went to Argentina instead of the U.S. at the turn of the last century. Apparently this eventally cause a bit of scandle since he married a woman down there conviently forgetting about his wife in Europe. So if there are any Argentinians named either Yedinake or Korba let me know perhaps we're relatives Also, I heartily recommend to you and everyone on this list an artist named Shenandoah who sings some enchantingly beautiful American Indian songs. Last week I ordered three more of her CDs from Amazon.com. I'm listening to her now....... I'll look her up. I have a friend who is very interested in Native American music. Anyway, please continue your reviews. They are very much appreciated. Thy will continue as lonas I'm not boring anyone and even if I am. Perhaps the sixth season ends we'll just start over again. Cheryl A ..................>>>>>>>>God/dess Inspire!...>>>Carmon ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:03:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Meredith Tarr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Cheryl's reviews Hi, Cheryl A posted: > I'm glad you are enjoying and > saving them - wow. Well you'll probably be the only > one to have them. Since by computer bit the dust I > lost all that weren't Word files. Any and all reviews you have posted to chakram-refugees since the day the list began are preserved in the archives. Granted they're in Digest form so the formatting isn't pretty, but the words are there. We're working on a search engine for all the archives at smoe.org, but it's not a front-burner project at the moment. For now, if you have an idea of when you posted a review, you can look up the Digest by date. The archives live at . Meredith meth@smoe.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 13:23:52 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon and Back From: IfeRae@aol.com Yay! She's baaaaackk! (About time ) Yeap my computer is back from the hospital. Not quite up to par but functional - so far. "Oh, excellent observation! I too enjoyed the character turnabouts in this, but not in the context of The Price." Yes The Price always springs to mind when I see this episode. It puts Gabrielle where Xena was in that episode. It isn't a remake in any way and Gabrielle doesn't decend into the dark exactly like Xena but she certainly does things that sher herself finds morally suspect. "Yes, that was my impression, too, tho it seems to me they did it in season 5. Anybody recall another time? At any rate, I wondered how intentional that was, given how often the two had fought together previously." Well that observation was made previously by someone else. At that time they menetioned they fought in manner similar to Herc and Iolus. Now since Michael Hurst directed this episode I'm sure it was intentional. It certainly made the point that these two were now equals and that reforces her position amoung the Amazons as a leader in her own right and not merely as Xena's sidekick. "Whaddya mean, "I assume Xena is familiar." *Of course* she is! She's familiar with *everything*. Probably showed somebody how to build the fort 35 winters ago. " AH HA! That's whyshe knows the defences face inland not out to sea. Someone should have reminded her things change in 35 or 36 years. "Hmmm, I thought she did the most practical thing, seeing as how Bellybaby wasn't that easy to kill. I'll have to review that ... someday. " Nope I think killing Belly was really important. He was a hard kill but Xena could have handled him - in fact she did eventually. Stopping the bombardment was more important for Gabrielle's and her troops survival than Xena's moral support. Now while I'm at this brings up a point - if Xena could blow-up the catapults with chakram once why didn't she just continue to do it? "I thought that bit player did her part well. Convinced me she knew she'd die, but was ready to give it up for her comrades." What always impressed about the casting of the Amazons is that they look like Amazons - not models in skimpy clothing running around. These gals are solid girls who look like the could hold their own in a bar fight. "Heh. I recall the actress laughing about having her hands tied in front of her and wondering why she didn't just reach up and pull the blindfold off." Yeah I asked her that question at a Con once and she said she always thought it was weird that she didn't just take the blindfold off too. "Hmm, not sure she remembered that. What struck me was how caught up in the moment Gabrielle was - so focused on surviving that her idealism got pushed into the background." One of the things I always thought about Xena was that the characters do remember what happened in previous episodes even if it's not menetioned. When Gabrielle puts Hope in the basket I'm sure she is remembering finding the babay in Credal Of Hope and that's where she gets the idea. So I really do believe Gabrielle remembers how appalled she was when Xena is willing the sacrifice the wounded. I think that's why she changes her mind. She suddenly remembers Xena and is shocked that she is now doing what once she thought was immoral. "Amazing how the WP always knows where her partner is, eh?" Xena and Gabby can find each other no matter what. Even in Family Affair they honed in on each other outside of Potadeia. "Yeah, I found that a bit over the top myself. TPTB sure wanted to show what lengths a leader might go to in saving her troops." Not to mention it should have been a drastic mistake which in reality would have caused a feeding frenzy. "Huh. I thought the speech was appropriate. Not too unrealistically rah rah, not doom and gloom. She reminded them of their tradition and honor, with obvious understanding of the price they would all have to pay. I thought it was in character with herself and the person the troops knew as a reluctant leader. I feel she appealed to their confidence in themselves, respecting that this would be enough." Well I though it a bit too gloomy as if she was preparing them for a last stand. I thought she should have exuded more confidence that they would emerge victorious. Believing you can win is half the battle and I think speech should made the Amzon believe they could win not prepared them to mmet their dead sisters. "Oh, I absolutely agree. Xena wants to relate to Gabrielle as her friend, but Gabrielle doesn't want or need that then. Lucy shows so much in her brief expression, ending in a resolve to honor Gabrielle as a leader. One othe things I liked most about seaons 4 and 6 was how much Xena was forced to listen to and react to Gabrielle, when usually it's the other way around." That is the most subtle change that Xena goes through. She becomes not only symapthetic but empathic to others. The old Xena never cared about other's motives or reasons for what they did. She wanted them to either obey her or she'd make them. Now Xena tries to understand people- she understands Belly, Vari, and Gabrielle and tries to use that knowledge to change their behavior. It fails with Belleraphon but she gave it a try. Season 1 Xena would have just killed Belleraphon - she never would have pleaded with him to change. "I'm with you there. Half of XWP battles don't make sense to me, but that doesn't take away from what I get out of it." To be frank I never understand any of the strategy of battles. I had a heck of the time with War and Peace - the War part never made a bit of sense to me. To me the strategy seemed fine - land someway no one expects you to and sneak up to the castle. Of course it went wrong becausr Belleraphon figured out the startegy (he was half god you know). Gabby shold have of course sent out spies and scouts and the episode should have been a two parter then. Then of course the episode would have been about how to take a castle and not about Gabrielle coping with being a war leader. "You came back with a bang! I forgive you for your absence. Just don't do it again. " Well I certainly hope not to it again. It cost me money and I missed my computer. However on a brighter note I got lots of housework done, found a contractor to put windows in, and learned a lesson about backing up my files. CherylA -- Ife ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 21:22:01 +0100 From: "Ann Reddecliffe" Subject: RE: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> >> Wasn't SPR about the Normandy landings? (I haven't seen it). Okay, so the homage had to have a landing across a beachhead. Never mind that Amazons are quite unsuited to it. Yes I think this was a homage to SPR which is about Normandy and a great movie However I think actuall the sistuation seemed more like Gallipoli (spelling). Troops stuck on a seacoast as artillary pounded the from above. Certainly this would be a very familar scenario for New Zealanders much more so than Normandy. >> When this ep first came out and people were saying about Saving Private Ryan, I hadn't seen the movie. I acquired a copy and the beach scene is a direct take on those scenes. Very close parallel. >>I like Cyane as queen but I think she'll have to watch her back with Varia around. Persoanally I would have voted for not rescuring her at all. If I was an Amazon I would have suggested we have a nice feast day in her name and elect Cyan as the new queen. Then sent out some spies to find out who attacked the village and plotted a long term plan to deal with Belleraphon.>> One jarring note for me was when Bellerophon described her as "The Great Varia". She had hardly had time to do the great deeds that make a warrior the stuff of legends and song. Why did he think she deserved the title? [Perhaps he meant to say "great looking"?] Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 17:38:19 EDT From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Helicon and Back In a message dated 5/7/03 12:25:32 PM Central Daylight Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: << Now while I'm at this brings up a point - if Xena could blow-up the catapults with chakram once why didn't she just continue to do it?>> Tsk, tsk. Are you trying to introduce "logic" into this? Better leave that up to the engineers on the list. They're soooo much more patient at that than the rest of us. "I thought that bit player did her part well. Convinced me she knew she'd die, but was ready to give it up for her comrades." What always impressed about the casting of the Amazons is that they look like Amazons - not models in skimpy clothing running around. These gals are solid girls who look like the could hold their own in a bar fight.>> Absolutely. Good, hardy Kiwi women. (No offense to good, hardy but disgustiningly runway-type California women.) "Heh. I recall the actress laughing about having her hands tied in front of her and wondering why she didn't just reach up and pull the blindfold off." Yeah I asked her that question at a Con once and she said she always thought it was weird that she didn't just take the blindfold off too.>> *You're* the one who asked that? Shoulda known. <<"Hmm, not sure she remembered that. What struck me was how caught up in the moment Gabrielle was - so focused on surviving that her idealism got pushed into the background." One of the things I always thought about Xena was that the characters do remember what happened in previous episodes even if it's not menetioned. When Gabrielle puts Hope in the basket I'm sure she is remembering finding the babay in Credal Of Hope and that's where she gets the idea. So I really do believe Gabrielle remembers how appalled she was when Xena is willing the sacrifice the wounded. I think that's why she changes her mind. She suddenly remembers Xena and is shocked that she is now doing what once she thought was immoral. >> Heh. I'm not sure the writers remembered what happened previously sometimes, let alone the characters. Regardless, I think there was power to Gabs having her own "a ha" moment, completely independent of what happened with Xena. It's like how we promise to ourselves that we won't make the same mistake as someone else, then suddenly find ourselves doing it precisely because now it's *our* moment. Maybe later we realize we were too hard on the other person, but only after we've walked in their shoes. No, I think Gabrielle was comparing herself to herself -- to her own ideals and concept of who she'd thought she was. Like I said before, I also think that underscores how hard it is to keep ideals in mind when one is in a fight for their survival. I think she was too focused on the moment and her immediate feelings to be having flashbacks to the "old" days and Xena's moments/feelings. I guess this is where we'll agree to disagree on that. :-) << "Huh. I thought the speech was appropriate. Not too unrealistically rah rah, not doom and gloom. She reminded them of their tradition and honor, with obvious understanding of the price they would all have to pay. I thought it was in character with herself and the person the troops knew as a reluctant leader. I feel she appealed to their confidence in themselves, respecting that this would be enough." Well I though it a bit too gloomy as if she was preparing them for a last stand. I thought she should have exuded more confidence that they would emerge victorious. Believing you can win is half the battle and I think speech should made the Amzon believe they could win not prepared them to mmet their dead sisters.>> Ah. I interpreted it more as paying respect to the traditions and honor of their dead sisters. Yes, some of them might also join their dead sisters, but I didn't get that as the point of Gab's speech. Thanks to you, I did contrast it with Xena's speech in "Price," where she appealed to the soldiers' pride as "the elite of the Athenian army." I think both women chose a rallying speech that they thought most appropriate for the moment and the audience. << "Oh, I absolutely agree. Xena wants to relate to Gabrielle as her friend, but Gabrielle doesn't want or need that then. Lucy shows so much in her brief expression, ending in a resolve to honor Gabrielle as a leader. One othe things I liked most about seaons 4 and 6 was how much Xena was forced to listen to and react to Gabrielle, when usually it's the other way around." That is the most subtle change that Xena goes through. She becomes not only symapthetic but empathic to others. The old Xena never cared about other's motives or reasons for what they did. She wanted them to either obey her or she'd make them. Now Xena tries to understand people- she understands Belly, Vari, and Gabrielle and tries to use that knowledge to change their behavior. It fails with Belleraphon but she gave it a try. Season 1 Xena would have just killed Belleraphon - she never would have pleaded with him to change. >> Yes, I agree, though I won't be surpised if we get push-back from other commentators on that. << "You came back with a bang! I forgive you for your absence. Just don't do it again. " Well I certainly hope not to it again. It cost me money and I missed my computer. However on a brighter note I got lots of housework done, found a contractor to put windows in, and learned a lesson about backing up my files.>> Yeah, yeah, we're happy for your clean house and educational moments. Forgive me if I don't feel as much benefit from that as I do the reviews. -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:45:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena dvd! Yaay, my Season 1 Xena dvd set from Best Buy came today finally!!! :) Can't wait to start watching it. Oh, and it comes with a cheesy collectible coin, heh...and an ad thing for a free (well, $4.95 s&h fee) collectible coin holder display thingie, which will have slots for the coins for Seaons 1-6...which means they are doing all 6 seasons on dvd, all with coins, so that's good. :) I wonder when Season 2 will come out? There's also an entry form for the "Quest for the Golden Sword" sweepstakes, very cool! The grand prize is a $10,000 solid gold sword, plus a trip to Hollywood to receive it...oooh. :) -Sarah- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #124 **************************************