From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #97 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, April 9 2003 Volume 03 : Number 097 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] <> [Lilli Sprintz ] [chakram-refugees] <> [Lilli Sprintz ] [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda [Lilli Sprintz ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda ["Xena Torres" > [cande@sunlink.net] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: You Are There ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> cr quotes some others saying, >>"Actually, he did name him. Hercules. I'm trying to think back to the >>HTLJ episodes that Charon appeared in, to see if there are any grounds for the accusation [that Hercules never paid Charon "the coin"]. >> > >Ah - Porkules? Hmm, just checked the transcripts - wasn't that one. >It was actually ep 208, The Other Side. The pig in question wasn't Herc. >And the next encounter was in Highway to Hades and Herc didn't pay Charon in that one either. > This was about the line in the episode where Ccharon indicates that Hercules never paid the coin for ferrying him, as Xena did (is that right?)... Anyway, I have to say, that I haven't posted this because I've been overwhelmed with other work, but you know, Xena never paid the coin either. In Mortal Beloved, the first time she goes down to the underworld (that we know), Charon asks for the coin and she doesn't have one, and says she's "here to set things right", and he skeptically agrees to take her with the attitude of "right, I'd like to see this." Second time (same episode) she doesn't have a coin either, but convinces him to take her AND Marcus when Marcus un-invisibles himself by removing Hades' helmet of invisibility. Power. Next time I saw Xena enter the Underworld was with Gabrielle in Godfearing Child. No coin involved, no Charon. She doesn't exactly have good credit. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:49:57 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> On Tuesday 08 April 2003 17:13, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: >> cr (I think) wrote: > >>> > "Ah. Now the way I saw it, Xena was just toying with Nigel when she was making as if to eat the apple, IMO she was going to give the apple to Aphrodite all along and Gabby's interjection was superfluous. >> >> >> I agree that Xena's plan was to give Aphrodite the apple, but from the >> expression on Xena's face, it seemed she was actually tempted to take a >> bite herself. True, I didn't find that particularly believable, but I got the impression we were supposed to understand Gabs' concern. I suppose Lucy could've been adlibbing a bit -- playing up the "will she, won't she" -- but I'm inclined to think not. > I tend to agree with cr here. I don't believe Xena ws really going to eat it. She had that teasing look, and though I believe her ethics all along were for Aphrodite and Ares to get the apple, remember, Xena still (that nasty warlord part), still likes to make people squirm. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 23:56:37 -0500 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda ...I almost said Hercules. I tried to think what else to call this...anyway, in Andromeda this past week the planet they were surrounding was called Samsara. Samsara, samsara, let's see, where have I heard that name. Xena? Well, finally realized it was the name of the ancient Amazon warrior in the episode that was based on Amazon High. Kevin Sorbo must be having fun bringing in stuff from Xena and Hercules. Does he have to get permission to do that? That's it. Lilli (I'm filling up for all the times I have not posted in the last month). ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:44:02 EDT From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda well...considering the name wasnt original sorbo has no problem. lol btw...there is a movie called samsara based on its definition in buddhist religion.....samsarafilm.com Samsara, in Buddhism, is the opposite of Nirvana Buddhists believe that Samsara is the world of passion; attachment to people and things; multiplicity and differentiation. Their goal is to try in this world to approach the oneness, detachment, and peace that they believe will exist in the Nirvana that follows death In a message dated 4/8/03 10:00:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, spri0037@tc.umn.edu writes: > ...I almost said Hercules. > > I tried to think what else to call this...anyway, in Andromeda this > past week the planet they were surrounding was called Samsara. > > Samsara, samsara, let's see, where have I heard that name. Xena? > > Well, finally realized it was the name of the ancient Amazon warrior in > the episode that was based on Amazon High. > > > > Kevin Sorbo must be having fun bringing in stuff from Xena and Hercules. > Does he have to get permission to do that? ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:56:27 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: You Are There On Wednesday 09 April 2003 11:22, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:39:09 +1200 > > From: cr > > > > > > > > Highlights of the ep, or just odd points I noticed: > > > > Xena advancing on the camera with an icy glare as if she's not sure what > > it is but she already doesn't like the look of it. > > I do like Xena's continuous air of suspicion. The woman sees everything as > a threat until proven otherwise. With good reason, I think. Still, wouldn't make her easy to live with. > > Gabby sniffing and tasting the clip-on mike. > > Well Gabby always on the look out for a new taste sensation. It also a > very primative reaction to something new. It was probably a ROC ad lib. > She said she has developed a much more subtle sense of humor since living > in NZ. Sometimes too subtle - in TGYK no one not even the crew got her joke > about taking her hat off when revealing herself to Eve thus taking off her > "disguise". Interesting, since NZ humour is known, I think, for its dryness, of the Butch Cassidy type ('Reckon ya used enough dynamite there Butch?') but not usually for subtlety. OTOH the people working on Xena would have been more talented than the average, I guess. > > Gabby's aside to Xena in the interview - 'everyone's seen the tapestry'. > > Gabby being the ever ready adviser like some lawyer at a senate hearing. > >> There's a line from Aphrodite that always sounded a little wrong to me, > > and > > I've just figured out why. I think it's due to a subtle but definite > > difference between English and American English. > > "My powers are tied to Olympus, and there is no way for me to get back > > there. Xena made sure of that!" > > In English English, that means 'ensured' i.e. Xena deliberately ensured > > that Aphrodite couldn't get back to Olympus. .... > > However, I *think* that in American English it means 'confirmed' i.e. > > Xena investigated or looked for a way for Aphrodite to get back to > > Olympus and couldn't find one. That fits much better. > > Actually I never understood the line either. I think it was AT's delivery > which to me sounded catty and not as if she thought Xena researched the > problem. Maybe it was a slightly 'off' delivery by Alex, I agree. But (having just thought of the second interpretation) I do like it better, I think it fits. I can't quite make sense of the first without stretching things a bit. > > Ares whole little speech from his throne - "Oh, the pain the pain". > > Loved that speech. Especially his falsetto. > > > Oddly enough, I have no trouble at all accepting the presence of Nigel > > and his camera. This is a little strange since I totally reject Married > > With Fishsticks and one of my major beefs with that appalling episode is > > that there is just no possible rationale for why Gabby should find > > herself in 20th > > century Florida - or, if all that was just going on inside her head, > > where the ideas came from. (I just can't resist mentioning the > > subversive thought that's just occurred to me, which is that if the > > inside of Gabby's head was always like that, it would explain an awful > > lot.... ;) Sorry Gabfans 8) > > Well the inside of Gabby's head can be a murky place and that is from a > Gabfan LOL! The inside of Xena's head, OTOH - well, Xena said it herself in Furies - - "You don't wanna go there-- it's terrifying." > > I think the difference is that the characters in YAT are well written, in > > character, and the comedy arises from the acuteness of the observation. >> The > > characters in MWF are absurd and unbelievable, not even the alter egos of > > Aphrodite and Discord can save it. Probably if YAT was less expertly > > done, I'd be more reluctant to accept the anachronism of Nigel. > > You can accept a lot if the episode is well written. This was a high > concept episode and it worked because of the acting and the writing. Also > there have been similar reenactments of historical events so the concept > was familar and the audience got the joke. > > CherylA Yes, I guess so. Even though I've never seen the original 'You Are There' series or any other series based on that premise, I guess the scenario of the reporter intruding into events is familiar enough that it didn't set off my YAXI-sensing circuits. And, as I implied, I can overlook quite a lot of logical inconsistencies if I like the episode. cr cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:31:03 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There On Wednesday 09 April 2003 11:45, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > > Well we've had that explained before, in Ten Little Warlords - without a > > ruling God of War people just can't control their aggressive instincts > > and just lose it. > > You're right of course. But it is interesting - Aphrodite loses her power > and we forget how to love. War loses his power and we just get meaner. > War is the mitigating power for hate and violence War manages the darker > impulses for us. So perhaps we missed a good an interesting plot twist or > perhaps it was alluded to at the brothel. Without love we only have carnel > lust with no love to temper it. We could have had a muct lustier episode > in that case. Hmmm. OK, trying for some rationalisation, one could say that Love (Aphrodite) channels our animal instincts into something more productive, while War (Ares) channels our random aggression into something more organised and disciplined (I won't say 'productive ;) So I suppose there could be a parallel there. > > They did foreshadow Xena's end on quite a number of occasions. I > > suppose > > they could really have made it obvious and given her a red shirt.... > > But you're right, Xena was always more worried about Gabby than she was > > about herself. > > Frankly I always thought Xena was going to wind up dead. She would > certainly die heroically but die she would. I always saw her as a doomed > character and Gabrielle as the one who would carry on. Gabrielle, as I saw > her, was Xena's redemption because she would become the hero Xena would > train to be a warrior for the greater good. The kind of warrior Xena > wanted to be but without the darkness. > > CherylA Did I think Xena would wind up dead? I would have bet even money on it, actually, either way would not have suprised me so far as the series was concerned. So far as the 'saga of Xena' is concerned, if I can put it that way, I would have said the odds were ten to one she'd end up dead, considering the life she'd led. Hmmm. I never really saw Gabrielle as a warrior. Probably because she doesn't have that 'darkness' as you put it, and really that darkness is what lent a lot of credibility to Xena. Not knocking ROC, but IMO she's just too pleasant, too nice, not ruthless enough, for the role of Xena's successor. Could Xena (even good Xena) kill someone instantly if she had to? Yes, and she looks as if she could. Could Gabby? I don't think she has the look. Even when she whacked Morimoto(?) with the chacky, she looked more surprised than anything else. So I think a 'warrior for the greater good' is almost an oxymoron. It isn't possible to be an effective formidable warrior without doing things, or at least being prepared to do things, that are not very nice. That's where Rob Tapert had his moment of genius, I think, in realising that his woman warrior (unlike say Wonder Woman) had to have a dark streak. There's a similarity, I think, with Sean Connery and as James Bond - Sean looked sinister enough under the suave exterior to be believable as 007 (licensed to kill), and Roger Moore IMO just didn't. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:47:54 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Wednesday 09 April 2003 16:43, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > cr quotes some others saying, > > >>"Actually, he did name him. Hercules. I'm trying to think back to the > >>HTLJ episodes that Charon appeared in, to see if there are any grounds > >> for the accusation [that Hercules never paid Charon "the coin"]. > > > >Ah - Porkules? Hmm, just checked the transcripts - wasn't that one. > >It was actually ep 208, The Other Side. The pig in question wasn't Herc. > >And the next encounter was in Highway to Hades and Herc didn't pay Charon > > in that one either. > > This was about the line in the episode where Ccharon indicates that > Hercules never paid the coin for ferrying him, as Xena did (is that > right?)... Yes, from 'You Are There' > Anyway, I have to say, that I haven't posted this because I've been > overwhelmed with other work, but you know, Xena never paid the coin > either. In Mortal Beloved, the first time she goes down to the > underworld (that we know), Charon asks for the coin and she doesn't have > one, and says she's "here to set things right", and he skeptically > agrees to take her with the attitude of "right, I'd like to see this." > Second time (same episode) she doesn't have a coin either, but > convinces him to take her AND Marcus when Marcus un-invisibles himself > by removing Hades' helmet of invisibility. Power. > > Next time I saw Xena enter the Underworld was with Gabrielle in > Godfearing Child. No coin involved, no Charon. > > She doesn't exactly have good credit. > > Lilli Hmm, you've got me rushing off to my 'transcripts' directory again.... only Xena ep Charon appeared in before YAT was Mortal Beloved. Xena never paid him the first time (maybe being alive exempted her) and the second time she had Hades' Helmet of Invisibility with her, so Charon let her ride for free again. As you noted. At least she never promised to pay later like Herc did. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:58:00 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda On Wednesday 09 April 2003 16:56, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > ...I almost said Hercules. > > I tried to think what else to call this...anyway, in Andromeda this > past week the planet they were surrounding was called Samsara. > > Samsara, samsara, let's see, where have I heard that name. Xena? > > Well, finally realized it was the name of the ancient Amazon warrior in > the episode that was based on Amazon High. Yep, Danielle Cormack. > > Kevin Sorbo must be having fun bringing in stuff from Xena and Hercules. > Does he have to get permission to do that? > > That's it. > > Lilli (I'm filling up for all the times I have not posted in the last > month). I don't think names are copyright. So long as its not obviously supposed to be the 'same' character. For example, IIRC, in some TV ep there was a cat named 'Xena'. I'll bet the writers didn't need to get RenPics permission for that. Or for example Chianna in Farscape, which is so very close in name to Shiana in Anthony & Cleopatra. That's probably just coincidence though. Umm, RenPics have done it often themselves, and deliberately on occasion - Dustinus Hoofmanus the centaur actor in The Play's The Thing, for example. I rather like those little touches, it's fun spotting them. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:48:32 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 07 April 2003 10:12, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Path Of Vengeance > > > > This isn't a bad episode. It has some good action sequences and a very > good performance by Kevin Smith. It's main problems lay in a plot that is > contrived and the character of Varia. > > > > Varia is now queen of the Amazons and has called together the various > queens of the different tribes from around the world: Siberia, Africa, > Britain and one who looks like a South Pacific islander for some odd > reason. The various queens seem uncertain about joining with Varia but > word soon reaches the council that Roman troops are in the Amazon lands. > Varia leads the Amazons into the field to fight the invading Romans. Is a bit odd... how did they get African Amazons, seeing as how all Africa south of the Mediterranean coastal strip (or Egypt) was Terra Incognita at the time? > > The problem the Romans aren't invaders but have been sent to protect Eve. > Eve has returned to the Amazons as a peace envoy for Rome. Eve says that > the Romans have made a terrible mistake in following her and she is right. The Romans made a terrible mistake in sending Evie as a peace envoy, come to that. ;) > Varia arrives with her troops. She doesn't demand and explanation for > Rome's presence on Amazon lands nor does she demand their withdrawal, she > just attacks. She defeats the Romans, captures Eve, and orders the > captured Romans killed. Eve begs for the lives of the soldiers telling her > they were on a peaceful mission. Varia will not listen to her old enemy > and orders Cyane of the Siberian Amazons to kill the Romans. Cyane will > not do this and Varia's own Amazons slaughter the helpless soldiers Now that I did *not* like. All the way from 'Destiny' to 'Anthony & Cleo' I firmly believed the only good Roman was a dead Roman, but these were prisoners. I'm not sure that even Evil Xena killed prisoners for no purpose. > In a village Xena and Gabrielle are discussing the fact that Eve has > convinced the new Roman emperor to withdraw his troops from Greece. They > are interrupted when a survivor of the Amazon massacre stumbles into town. > He informs them that peaceful Roman troops have been attacked by hundreds > of Amazons. 'Peaceful Roman troops', OTOH, is a bit of an oxymoron. :) > Now here is my first problem with the episode. We are continually told > that the Amazons are great and fierce warriors that are now in decline > because of Livia's raid. Now granted Livia was prodigy as a warrior, she > was only about 19 when this battle took place, but the fierce Amazons > seemed pretty easy to defeat. Livia rides into the village unchallenged. > She defeats the legendary warriors in hardly any time at all. The only > scouts the Amazons seemed to have been Varia and her young sister therefore > tribal security was the hands of children. I think Varia is giving Livia > way too much credit for the Amazon decline. Generally, I think, empires or organisations like the Amazons only decline for one of two reasons - either they are destroyed everywhere at once - and Livia only destroyed *one* branch of the Amazons - or for some other sociological reason they become unpopular or uneconomic. There must have been social changes in the world that made it less attractive to be an Amazon. On reflection, Xena did as much or more to destroy one branch of the Amazons when she killed all the Siberian Amazon leaders. But they survived (must have been an environmental niche for them to occupy) and Xena redeemed herself by re-establishing them in Sin Trade. > Eve however is racked with guilt and doesn't defend herself. When Xena and > Gabrielle interrupt the trial Eve can only look at her mother and admit her > guilt. The council has heard enough and is ready to pass judgment. > Gabrielle however demands that Eve must have some kind of defense. The > council seems disinclined to agree but once again Cyane speaks up. She > says the Amazons owe Xena a chance to defend her daughter and the council > agrees. Varia is displeased. Eve has violated Marga's decree banning her > from the Amazons land and she wants her executed. The council however > disagrees and Varia leaves. I do rather like this Cyane. She seems much more fair-minded than Varia. > In the council room the queens are deliberating Eve's fate. Xena cannot > stay but Gabrielle can since she is a queen. One might have thought that Xena, as virtual creator of Cyane's tribe, would have a place... OTOH, I suppose it might not be considered diplomatic to remind the assembled company that Xena herself had nearly destroyed an Amazon tribe. > In a field an irate Xena calls on Ares. After all she has done for him how > could he do this to her. Ares answers with the fable of the swan and the > scorpion. The scorpion cannot change his nature even if he dies for it. > Ares is the god of war and he needs war. "It's what I do." > The crazy Amazons and the > ruthless Romans will give him the greatest war in history. More > importantly both sides will pray to him for victory. Eve just got in the > way. That was the best scene in the show. With its hanging punchline, left till a later scene - "Ares, the scorpion drowned." > In the council room Varia is preparing to sentence Eve. Gabrielle wants to > argue for banishment but Varia cuts her off. She is queen she gets to > sentence Eve. Gabrielle says she ain't queen yet and challenges Varia. > She takes Varia's spear and breaks it over her knee ( according to AW, ROC > had lot of trouble breaking that spear). > > > > Gabrielle now prepares for her fight with Varia (Gabby gets another new > costume). Xena tries to stop her friend. A bit chagrined at the danger > Gabrielle has put herself for her daughter; Xena offers to fight in her > place. Gabrielle says she can't. She is the challenger and she must fight > this battle. She makes Xena promise not to interfere. Hmm, YAXI? In H&H, there seemed to be no problem with Gabs nominating Xena as her champion. Of course, rules change over the years. > In the ring, Varia and Gabrielle face off in a basic kicking boxing match. > To make a long story short Gabrielle gets whipped. Now again I have a > problem here. Gabrielle has been in any number of brawls and fights: she > killed a whole slew of Romans in the gabspaz, fought her way through the > fifth season, been an archangel who fought demon Xena. Now suddenly she > can't hold her own against Varia. Why? I assume we are suppose to > believe that Ares' training has made Varia a super warrior. Perhaps > Gabrielle's heart isn't in the fight. A fact supported by sudden decision > to now become loquacious and talk sense to Varia in the middle of a punch > up. It still smacks of a contrivance. Gabrielle loses simply so that Xena > can save the day. Maybe I just never really accepted Warrior Gabby, but I didn't find this odd at all. > Gabrielle is now beaten and bloody. So, maybe we can call it part payment for Xena getting beaten up in Gurkhan? (Only *part* payment, Xena got far worse treated for far longer....) > It is a pretty good fight. Varia and Xena fight above the acid pits and > Varia fights well nearly getting the best of Xena a number of times. Now this is where I had a problem. _Varia_ giving Xena a tough time of it? Never. Xena could put Varia down one-handed without even breaking into a sweat. > Finally Xena fights Varia to a draw but she won't kill Varia. Instead she > sheathes her sword. She will make Varia choose her path now. Varia using > Livia's move tosses Xena to the ground and is about to kill the unarmed > warrior when she realizes what is about to happen. She is about to become > like Livia - killing the defenseless for the glory of Ares. She drops her > sword, and Xena releases Eve who comforts the now guilt ridden Varia. Xena > pointing to the grieving women tells the Amazon queens that this is the > price of following Ares. And this I had a problem with. Xena putting herself at the mercy of Varia's conscience? I'm afraid I wouldn't regard any part of Varia's personality as reliable enough to bet my life on. And Varia breaking down and being comforted by Eve of all people was a bit too much. > The Amazons leave but just as Xena and Eve are to follow Ares appears. > Ares says Xena had everything planned but he's not upset. Yes he lost the > Amazons but he is still a god. I guess Ares knows another war is always > around the next corner. That was a nice moment. Ares [Claps]: "You had this planned all along. [Laughs] You-- are so good." X: "It's what I do." Nice one! > Back at the Amazon council room, a chasten Varia declares Livia dead so > that Eve, the messenger of peace, may live. Outside the Amazon hut Eve > announces that she is off to Chin and Indus. Xena is upset that her > daughter is leaving but Eve insists on going off on her own. [Massed applause from ten million Xenafans.... ] > Xena is > resigned but as Eve strikes out Xena calls out after her wayward daughter > "And stay out of trouble." Some hope! > Not a bad episode. I liked the fights. The main problem with this episode > is the character of Varia. She just doesn't strike me as queen material. > She seems to follow any one who will give her the time of day and she shows > no real judgment. I totally agree. In fact I don't think she's even good generalissimo material. Too impulsive and emotional. The sort of leader, in fact, who's likely to get her troops killed. (OTOH, Gabby aka Plot Device Blondie has the chance to do the same next week.... :) > In Dangerous Prey she rejects Xena's sound advice until > she is forced to see her wisdom. Then she idolizes Xena. Suddenly she > forgets everything Xena taught her and she takes up with Ares. Now I > assume Ares hasn't been a god again for very long so his seduction of Varia > must have been done in record time. Ares is very good at it, though. Even Xena has a hard time resisting him, and Varia isn't Xena. > Varia apparently will follow anyone > with a good line. She followed Marga, Xena, Ares, and finally Xena again. > At the same time she stubbornly refuses to follow good advise unless it is > beaten into her. A combination of gullibility and arrogant stupidity are > bad traits for a leader. Agreed. Unfortunately I can't see an obviously good queen in the current lot of Amazons. Cyane looks to be steadier and would be better than Varia, I think, but I don't know if she's really got the charisma to inspire her troops. The other queens we don't really see enough of to tell. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 08:47:45 -0700 From: "Xena Torres" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda I doubt they were going for Xena's Samsara. First, where did the Xena crew get it from, and second, if they wanted to referance Xena, why such an obscure one? Also, Kevin would have had NO idea that the name had been used on Xena. He wasn't in Amazon High. BATTLE ON XENA! Xena Torres: Warrior Writer http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome "And most importantly, I've learned that the heart can betray, but the sword never lies." - Eve "Heart of Darkness" >From: cr >Reply-To: cr@orcon.net.nz >To: Lilli Sprintz , chakram-refugees@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Xena crossover in Andromeda >Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:58:00 +1200 > >On Wednesday 09 April 2003 16:56, Lilli Sprintz wrote: > > ...I almost said Hercules. > > > > I tried to think what else to call this...anyway, in Andromeda this > > past week the planet they were surrounding was called Samsara. > > > > Samsara, samsara, let's see, where have I heard that name. Xena? > > > > Well, finally realized it was the name of the ancient Amazon warrior in > > the episode that was based on Amazon High. > >Yep, Danielle Cormack. > > > > > Kevin Sorbo must be having fun bringing in stuff from Xena and Hercules. > > Does he have to get permission to do that? > > > > That's it. > > > > Lilli (I'm filling up for all the times I have not posted in the last > > month). > >I don't think names are copyright. So long as its not obviously supposed >to >be the 'same' character. For example, IIRC, in some TV ep there was a cat >named 'Xena'. I'll bet the writers didn't need to get RenPics permission >for that. > >Or for example Chianna in Farscape, which is so very close in name to >Shiana >in Anthony & Cleopatra. That's probably just coincidence though. > >Umm, RenPics have done it often themselves, and deliberately on occasion - >Dustinus Hoofmanus the centaur actor in The Play's The Thing, for example. > >I rather like those little touches, it's fun spotting them. > >cr >========================================================= >This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. >To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with >"unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. >Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. >========================================================= _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - -------Original Message------- From: cr "Is a bit odd... how did they get African Amazons, seeing as how all Africa south of the Mediterranean coastal strip (or Egypt) was Terra Incognita at the time?" Don't know but simply because conventional histories of the tome doesn't mention Subsahara Africa doesn't mean the Amazons didn't know about. This of course could be a reference to the the Dahomy Amazons who were written about in the 19th century. > "The Romans made a terrible mistake in sending Evie as a peace envoy, come to that. ;)" Well she probably never told the Romans she was banished from the Amazon lands. It would be the kind of thing Eve would leave out in her zeal as the prophet of love and peace. "Now that I did *not* like. All the way from 'Destiny' to 'Anthony & Cleo' I firmly believed the only good Roman was a dead Roman, but these were prisoners. I'm not sure that even Evil Xena killed prisoners for no purpose." Well she did kill them as lesson for others i.e. Past Imperfect. But it was always represented as a dispicable act and one Xena was ashamed of. Varia get away with this crime which is unjustified simply by everyone excusing it as "Ares made her do it." The fact he didn't do any such thing is skipped over. It seems Xena and Eve suffer for their crimes but Varia is forgiven with no real guilt on her part. "Generally, I think, empires or organisations like the Amazons only decline for one of two reasons - either they are destroyed everywhere at once - and Livia only destroyed *one* branch of the Amazons - or for some other sociological reason they become unpopular or uneconomic. There must have been social changes in the world that made it less attractive to be an Amazon. ..." The fact that there are no men would eventually lead to decline simply because it would be difficult to maintain a population. They are much like the America Shakers - a religion that banned sexual intercourse. They thrived for awhile because they adopted a great number of orphans but eventually the orphan supply dried up. The Shakers were economically successful - farming and furniture makers of great repute - but they are mostly gone (last piece information I had was that there was a group of seven women in a community and at their peak there was about 6000). Now add to the fact that the Amazons were warriors and warriors are prone to getting killed the odds were against them surviving. "Hmm, YAXI? In H&H, there seemed to be no problem with Gabs nominating Xena as her champion. Of course, rules change over the years." Yes I forgot that in H&H Gabrielle in fact did challanged Melosa. Perhaps the rules did change or Varia's tribe isn't Melosa's tribe per se. We are never told they are Gabrielle's tribe and the fact they can't climb trees seems to indicate they aren't that tribe. "Maybe I just never really accepted Warrior Gabby, but I didn't find this odd at all." Well you wouldn't ;>. Gabby by now is fairly good at dfending herself. She has fought tons of big brutes so I think she could have held her own with Varia. Now perhaps Gabby doesn't have the vested interested in Eve as she does in Xena. If Xena was in danger Varia would have been dead meat - Gabby would kick fron her to Tartarus. "Now this is where I had a problem. _Varia_ giving Xena a tough time of it? Never. Xena could put Varia down one-handed without even breaking into a sweat." I agree Xena should have mopped the floor with Varia. She might have been restraining herself since Varia is the hope of the Amazons (sigh). "And this I had a problem with. Xena putting herself at the mercy of Varia's conscience? I'm afraid I wouldn't regard any part of Varia's personality as reliable enough to bet my life on. And Varia breaking down and being comforted by Eve of all people was a bit too much." Yes Varia has many personalities and none are too stable but Eve's comforting Varia seems in character for Eve. "Agreed. Unfortunately I can't see an obviously good queen in the current lot of Amazons. Cyane looks to be steadier and would be better than Varia, I think, but I don't know if she's really got the charisma to inspire her troops. The other queens we don't really see enough of to tell." Actually I think Cyane would have made the better queen. If she can get to the top amoung the Northern Amazons she must have had something going for her. She certainly was more honorable and level headded than Varia. Oh TPTB missed their chance. I was hoping Cyane would have at some point said to X & G that they knew her mother Eris (this actress played Xena's apprentice sidekick in Kindred Spirits). CherylA cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:11:28 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: You Are There - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > > Yes, I guess so. Even though I've never seen the original 'You Are There' > series or any other series based on that premise, I guess the scenario of the > reporter intruding into events is familiar enough that it didn't set off my > YAXI-sensing circuits. > > And, as I implied, I can overlook quite a lot of logical inconsistencies if I > like the episode. > Well I'm not old enough to have seen the original You Are There but PBS ran a special one time that used a similar concept. I believe it was orginally a BBC program. It had modern day journalists at the Battle of Culloden. It impressed me as a teen and so when Nigel popped up on Xena I was familar with the concept. CherylA > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #97 *************************************