From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #96 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, April 9 2003 Volume 03 : Number 096 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: You Are Thee ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There ["Cheryl Ande" "Ah. Now the way I saw it, Xena was just toying with Nigel when she was > making as if to eat the apple, IMO she was going to give the apple to > Aphrodite all along and Gabby's interjection was superfluous. I agree that Xena's plan was to give Aphrodite the apple, but from the expression on Xena's face, it seemed she was actually tempted to take a bite herself. True, I didn't find that particularly believable, but I got the impression we were supposed to understand Gabs' concern. I suppose Lucy could've been adlibbing a bit -- playing up the "will she, won't she" -- but I'm inclined to think not. Cande (I think) wrote: <> Again, I don't think so. I can't imagine Gabs being that concerned about Ares, and her expression also looked like one of genuine concern. If you're right about Xena's not being serious, I'm more inclined to think she was showing how easy it would be for her to be the person Odin, Nigel, Ares and others feared she was -- and which she herself knew to be there right under her skin. I think she even says something to that effect. I didn't get the feeling she was playing around. If she wasn't really going to eat the apple, I think she was making a point about temptation. Her rejection of the apple (like her rejection of the god-killing chakram, if arguably not of the ability to drown ol' Michael) re-emphasized her belief that no mortal, especially her, should have so much power. The deliberate way she went about it (e.g., tossing the apples to Aphrodite, but holding unto it while Ares took a bite) gave additional weight to the moment. It was almost as if she was vicariously enjoying (sharing) what Ares felt, even as she rejected its/his seductiveness. I felt some dignity and self-respect in her demeanor, knowing she'd turned all that down once again under circumstances where she had only her self-restraint (and Gabs' support) to rely on. Perhaps another example of self-determination in the struggle between love and war? cr wrote in response to Cande (I think): << "But you were a Valkyrie once, Xena. You know the way to Valhalla. Die a hero's death. I'll escort you there myself." X: "That's part of my long-range plan. Right now, I just need to see Odin." I'm not sure how much weight to give that line - it could just be a throwaway line from Xena. On reflection though, the way she said it - so matter-of-factly - does seem to add significance to it. >> You know, I missed that line. I think you're right on both counts. Xena said it as sort of a sarcastic throwaway, but it was actually her goal to die acting like a hero (i.e., for a good cause), even if she didn't see herself as that. Being Xena, she naturally kept her eye on all the "first things first" that would lead up to that. Of course, the line takes on even greater significance in retrospect. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 20:17:28 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There On Tuesday 08 April 2003 05:45, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > "Actually, he did name him. Hercules. I'm trying to think back to the > HTLJ > episodes that Charon appeared in, to see if there are any grounds for the > accusation, but my memory isn't good enough." > > Actually this must have been a well known incident since it just popped up > in a fan fiction story I'm reading. Charon was complaining about Hercules > not paying his way in the story. It must have been the episode where Herc > was turned into a pig because in the story Charon was upset he never got > the pig Hercules promised. > Ah - Porkules? Hmm, just checked the transcripts - wasn't that one. It was actually ep 208, The Other Side. The pig in question wasn't Herc. And the next encounter was in Highway to Hades and Herc didn't pay Charon in that one either. Continuity! > "Eve had a very short fuse. Evidently, even though a follower of Eli's > Way > of Love, she still suffered from the general shortage of love occasioned > by > Aphrodite's fall. One might have expected the Elijans love supply to be > independent of Aphrodite, but evidently (and intriguingly) this is not so." > > You would think Aphrodite would only affect romantic or erotic love not > platonic love. AS you say interesting. So what we are saying is that > Eli's god doesn't control very much of mankind's gentler emotions. He can't > control love but violence and hate still seem to abound even with a > dethroned god of war. Well we've had that explained before, in Ten Little Warlords - without a ruling God of War people just can't control their aggressive instincts and just lose it. > "I thought Gabby looked puzzled, maybe a little bit surprised, rather than > shocked." > > You are right. Gabrielle does seemed more puzzled than surprised. Nigel > seems shocked. Of course there goes his big scoop. > > > "And, it was funny. The whole spat was started off by Gabs asking 'What's > > the plan" so it was amusing when right at the end she repeats "So, what's > the > plan?" followed by a little chipmunk grin." > > Well it's obvious Gabby can't connect the dots. Of course with Xena you > just can't connect the dots in a conventional way. True. Actually, I have to admit that 'What's the plan?' was not an annoying line and didn't justify Xena's sarcastic reply. Another example of Aphrodite-deficiency (though as you noted, it was actually quite typical of couples). > "Ah. Now the way I saw it, Xena was just toying with Nigel when she was > making as if to eat the apple, IMO she was going to give the apple to > Aphrodite all along and Gabby's interjection was superfluous. (And isn't > it > annoying to be told to do something you're going to do anyway, it robs you > of > some of the credit?) But then, I would see it that way of course ;)" > > Or Xena was playing with Ares. Perhaps Gabrielle was just telling Xena to > stop torturing Ares. I assumed Gabby was telling Xena not to eat the apple > perhaps she was just telling Xena to stop fooling around and get love back > into working order. Aw, Xena just made him a god again. I think a little teasing is permissible. > "IIRC, certain sections of the fandom refused to believe there was nothing > more on the script than dot..dot..dot.. ;)" > > Yeah there was a bit of displeasure at the obvious joke. Perhaps they > thought Xena actually spilled the beans and RT cut the scene. Yes, exactly that. > It fit very > well into the theory that RT was malevolently preventing X & G from > revealing the true nature of their relationship. In which case, of course, Xena could just have said 'No'. But RT was never going to confirm it either way, and I'm sure the writers, and LL and ROC, agreed with him on that. > > "Was that Joel Tobeck? I'd always assumed it was the actor who played > Lucifer in Heart of Darkness. Obviously they recast - though of course, > with that much makeup on, and having seen Alex mendoza as the devil > Lucifer > for so short a time, recasting caused no problems." > > Yeah it was and it surprised me too. I didn't notice the credit when I > first saw the episode. It didn't sound like Joel. I never liked Strife or > Deimos - I found them annoying. I think I just stupidly assumed Joel > Tobeck would always play the same type of character. I found Strife intensely annoying the first time I saw him. OTOH he was one of those characters I 'love to hate'. He was good as Ares' lackey in Armageddon Now. Then Callisto killed him. He got a more meaty role as Hel's nemesis Creegan in Cleo 2525. > "I didn't know that. I thought Xena's "You can walk *beside* my horse!" > was > a bit of a put-down, too. Whether she meant it that way, I don't know. > > Interestingly, though Gabby acquired a horse in Animal Attraction, she > didn't > seem to keep him long, nor did she acquire another horse after the 25-year > > sleep. Maybe she isn't a horse person by nature." > > Actually Gabby never does get a specific horse of her own but she does ride > in the sixth season. She has a horse in The Rhinegold and I'm sure she > rides in other episodes. She seems to ride a cram colored horse most > often. Yes, I had a vague memory of her riding to the northland in pursuit of Xena in Rheingold. But she didn't seem to ride very often. IIRC she didn't start off at her ease with horses - I recall she had some differences with Argo early on - so maybe she never quite got used to them. > "But you were a Valkyrie once, Xena. You know the way to Valhalla. Die a > hero's death. I'll escort you there myself." > > X: "That's part of my long-range plan. Right now, I just need to see > Odin." > > I'm not sure how much weight to give that line - it could just be a > throwaway > line from Xena. On reflection though, the way she said it - so > matter-of-factly - does seem to add significance to it. > > Well as she told Gabrielle in The Execution people in their line of work > don't grow old. I assume Xena saw a violent end for herself and accepted > it. It was Gabrielle's probable violent end that disturbed her. > > CherylA They did foreshadow Xena's end on quite a number of occasions. I suppose they could really have made it obvious and given her a red shirt.... But you're right, Xena was always more worried about Gabby than she was about herself. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:49:52 +1200 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There On Tuesday 08 April 2003 17:13, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > cr (I think) wrote: > > "Ah. Now the way I saw it, Xena was just toying with Nigel when she was > > making as if to eat the apple, IMO she was going to give the apple to > > Aphrodite all along and Gabby's interjection was superfluous. > > I agree that Xena's plan was to give Aphrodite the apple, but from the > expression on Xena's face, it seemed she was actually tempted to take a > bite herself. True, I didn't find that particularly believable, but I got > the impression we were supposed to understand Gabs' concern. I suppose > Lucy could've been adlibbing a bit -- playing up the "will she, won't she" > -- but I'm inclined to think not. I definitely think Xena was faking it. It all fits in with her line of "Now he's telling me what I can't do". Nigel had been hounding Xena for quite a while, with his own inaccurate version of what she intended - I think she was making the most of the opportunity for a little mild revenge. Xena's always managed to resist Ares' invitations before, under far stronger persuasion than this. > > Cande (I think) wrote: [Yep, it was cande, not me - cr] > < to stop torturing Ares. I assumed Gabby was telling Xena not to eat the > apple perhaps she was just telling Xena to stop fooling around and get love > back into working order.>> > > Again, I don't think so. I can't imagine Gabs being that concerned about > Ares, and her expression also looked like one of genuine concern. I just put it down to Gabparanoia ;) > > If you're right about Xena's not being serious, I'm more inclined to think > she was showing how easy it would be for her to be the person Odin, Nigel, > Ares and others feared she was -- and which she herself knew to be there > right under her skin. I think she even says something to that effect. I think she was, maybe, making a point. (As you said). But on this occasion, I don't think she had any trouble making the decision she made. In fact I don't think she seriously considered going the other way for even an instant. Disclaimer: This is, of course, all what you and I and Cande read into Xena's expressions, there's no saying which of us is 'correct'. ;) > cr wrote in response to Cande (I think): [Yes - cr] > << "But you were a Valkyrie once, Xena. You know the way to Valhalla. Die > a hero's death. I'll escort you there myself." > > X: "That's part of my long-range plan. Right now, I just need to see > Odin." > > I'm not sure how much weight to give that line - it could just be a > throwaway > line from Xena. On reflection though, the way she said it - so > matter-of-factly - does seem to add significance to it. >> > > You know, I missed that line. It was there, and it gave me one of *those* moments when I heard it (partly because by then, due to spoiler leakage, I had a vague idea of the series ending). By one of 'those' moments I mean - how can I explain it? - the show has suddenly got my undivided attention. Maybe a little shiver goes down my spine, or I say (mentally) 'ouch!' But I love those moments. > I think you're right on both counts. Xena > said it as sort of a sarcastic throwaway, but it was actually her goal to > die acting like a hero (i.e., for a good cause), even if she didn't see > herself as that. Being Xena, she naturally kept her eye on all the "first > things first" that would lead up to that. Of course, the line takes on > even greater significance in retrospect. > > -- Ife It does indeed - though I could point, I think, to lines all through the series that foreshadowed the ending. Which is not to say the ending *had* to be like that, but it was certainly (IMO!) consistent with what had gone before. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:22:09 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: You Are Thee > Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:39:09 +1200 > From: cr > > > > Highlights of the ep, or just odd points I noticed: > > Xena advancing on the camera with an icy glare as if she's not sure what it > is but she already doesn't like the look of it. I do like Xena's continuous air of suspicion. The woman sees everything as a threat until proven otherwise. > > Gabby sniffing and tasting the clip-on mike. > Well Gabby always on the look out for a new taste sensation. It also a very primative reaction to something new. It was probably a ROC ad lib. She said she has developed a much more subtle sense of humor since living in NZ. Sometimes too subtle - in TGYK no one not even the crew got her joke about taking her hat off when revealing herself to Eve thus taking off her "disguise". > Gabby's aside to Xena in the interview - 'everyone's seen the tapestry'. Gabby being the ever ready adviser like some lawyer at a senate hearing. > >> There's a line from Aphrodite that always sounded a little wrong to me, and > I've just figured out why. I think it's due to a subtle but definite > difference between English and American English. > "My powers are tied to Olympus, and there is no way for me to get back there. > Xena made sure of that!" > In English English, that means 'ensured' i.e. Xena deliberately ensured that > Aphrodite couldn't get back to Olympus. .... > However, I *think* that in American English it means 'confirmed' i.e. Xena > investigated or looked for a way for Aphrodite to get back to Olympus and > couldn't find one. That fits much better. Actually I never understood the line either. I think it was AT's delivery which to me sounded catty and not as if she thought Xena researched the problem. > > Ares whole little speech from his throne - "Oh, the pain the pain". Loved that speech. Especially his falsetto. > > > > Oddly enough, I have no trouble at all accepting the presence of Nigel and > his camera. This is a little strange since I totally reject Married With > Fishsticks and one of my major beefs with that appalling episode is that > there is just no possible rationale for why Gabby should find herself in 20th > century Florida - or, if all that was just going on inside her head, where > the ideas came from. (I just can't resist mentioning the subversive > thought that's just occurred to me, which is that if the inside of Gabby's > head was always like that, it would explain an awful lot.... ;) > Sorry Gabfans 8) Well the inside of Gabby's head can be a murky place and that is from a Gabfan > > I think the difference is that the characters in YAT are well written, in > character, and the comedy arises from the acuteness of the observation. The > characters in MWF are absurd and unbelievable, not even the alter egos of > Aphrodite and Discord can save it. Probably if YAT was less expertly done, > I'd be more reluctant to accept the anachronism of Nigel. > You can accept a lot if the episode is well written. This was a high concept episode and it worked because of the acting and the writing. Also there have been similar reenactments of historical events so the concept was familar and the audience got the joke. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:45:22 -0400 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Re: You Are There - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > > Well we've had that explained before, in Ten Little Warlords - without a > ruling God of War people just can't control their aggressive instincts and > just lose it. > > You're right of course. But it is interesting - Aphrodite loses her power and we forget how to love. War loses his power and we just get meaner. War is the mitigating power for hate and violence War manages the darker impulses for us. So perhaps we missed a good an interesting plot twist or perhaps it was alluded to at the brothel. Without love we only have carnel lust with no love to temper it. We could have had a muct lustier episode in that case. > > They did foreshadow Xena's end on quite a number of occasions. I suppose > they could really have made it obvious and given her a red shirt.... > > But you're right, Xena was always more worried about Gabby than she was about > herself. > Frankly I always thought Xena was going to wind up dead. She would certainly die heroically but die she would. I always saw her as a doomed character and Gabrielle as the one who would carry on. Gabrielle, as I saw her, was Xena's redemption because she would become the hero Xena would train to be a warrior for the greater good. The kind of warrior Xena wanted to be but without the darkness. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #96 *************************************