From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #85 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, March 27 2003 Volume 03 : Number 085 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] << The God You Know>> [cr ] Fw: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] << The God You Know>> [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] Spam Emergency! I believe my Juno address has been stolen! ["Daniel T. Miller" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] << The God You Know>> On Tuesday 25 March 2003 13:51, Cheryl Ande wrote: > The God You Know > (Random arbitrary snips) > > > > This is exceedingly odd episode. I enjoyed it very much: good > performances by Lucy and Alexis Arquette, snappy dialog, Gabrielle acts > like Gabrielle should; Eve is annoying but at least has a personality. > Still if you look at the episode objectively it makes very little sense. I liked bits of it. Actually I liked it better on a second viewing when the true evilness of Michael's personality had sunk in... > > Now we come to the first puzzling aspect of this episode. Michael > basically says that he needs a god slayer. He also says Eve is on her way > to Rome to confront Caligula. There is an implied threat here. He seems > to be blackmailing Xena into killing the emperor. Why should he resort to > blackmail? I guess it just comes naturally to him. (Is it apparent I don't like Michael very much? ;) > Has Xena ever been reluctant to take on half mad Roman emperors? I think at this stage, after the events of Heart of Darkness, that Xena would hardly be about to do anything at Michael's request. > What is also puzzling is Michael's remark that Eve obeys a > "higher authority" than him, when Xena accuses him of putting her daughter > in danger. It is not so much the line as the delivery. Michael seems to > both smirk about it but also he seemed a bit resentful. He was just pissed because Evie wouldn't follow his orders, I think. "In the name of Eli and all the powers of Heaven".... that seems to kind of outrank Michael. I guess we could see Heaven at that time as a bit like the Catholic Church in medieval times... all sorts of factions and sects and power groupings manouvreing for supremacy. > Michael needs > Xena to kill Caligula who is a threat to Michael's god and he uses Eve as > leverage. Xena can't refuge but Michael is now seen as a threat by Xena. > Michael also has changed - he is now using Xena and Eve as mere tools to > accomplish his ends. They apparently no longer matter to him except as > means to an end. Since when did they ever matter to him except as means to an end? > Gabrielle does some quick thinking. She grabs Caligula (which would have > gotten her killed in the real world) and says it would be a shame to miss > her performance. Caligula, who is always up for a good show, is intrigued. > So Gabrielle does her dance (Rob paid for a choreographer and by golly he > was going to use her). What ever you may think of dance it would be one > the Romans would have enjoyed. They liked acrobats and Gabby certainly did > her acrobatic best. She throws balls of fire around, swings on ropes, and > does flips, dances on shields and wonders how long she can keep this up. And I thought it was just a bit of eye candy for the Gabfans ;-) > In Caligula's chamber the mad little god is haunted by the voice of the > mother he murder. She taunts him with his weakness and his cowardice. > Caligula knows the voices are in his head but he is terrified and calls out > for help. Suddenly behind his throne appears Michael and Caligula fearfully > confronts this new demon. And what happens next? We never find out. > In the catacombs of Rome, Eve prays with Eli's followers. Suddenly there > are fingers at her temples. Eve says at last. Michael is there - he is > comforting and sympathetic. Eve says she is ready for her mission. A > kindly Michael sends her off to her death. What a lovely guy! I believe in the original script he actually seduces Eve. Evidently TPTB decided that was a bit much even for Michael. > In the throne room a fretful Caligula waits. Eve is brought before her. > She preaches that Caligula must give up blood and violence. Eve is earnest > and Caligula finds it annoying. He is about to kill her when Xena > interrupts. Eve turns to confront her mother. She is about to have a > teen-age hissy fit when mom cold cocks her. With Eve out cold, Xena asks > what exactly Caligula is up to. Caligula innocently answers that he is > doing what the demon with wings told him to do - kill Eli's messenger. Oh, I missed that! I should have read ahead.... so we do find out what Michael was up to. What a rat. > Xena has had enough and she is now willing to let Michael die. He has > proven to an untrustworthy and murderous ally; willing to sacrifice > everyone to protect his turf. Gabrielle, despite the fact she apparently > enjoyed watching Xena beat the stuffing out of the angel, is now trying > frantically to save him. He pleads with Xena to take the pinch off. Xena > is stubborn but a pillar of light strikes her. She falls back and Michael > is released. With a maniacal laugh he disappears. Xena tells a fearful > Gabrielle that she has lost her power to kill gods. I was *really*, really disappointed by that! I just felt cheated. Michael had worked so hard to deserve being killed by Xena, and at the last moment his boss Big Brother went and saved his scrawny neck. How intensely frustrating. > Now a digression. What the heck happened? Michael sets Eve up to be > killed by Caligula so that Xena is forced to kill him to save Eve or avenge > her. That seems to be pretty cavalier manner to treat you number one > prophet. It also doesn't make sense. Xena's power to kill gods is tied > directly to Eve - remember in Motherhood Eve dies Xena looses the power to > kill gods. So if Xena is late and Caligula kills Eve, Xena is powerless. I think he was playing high stakes, and figured Xena was never going to kill Caligula for any other reason. Besides, if Xena lost her power to kill gods, that's one less potential threat to him. As Xena said, X: "Michael, don't forget-- if I can kill gods-- I can kill angels, too." In other words, Xena's usefulness had just about reached its Use By date. So, Xena kills Caligula, that's one threat out of the way. Caligula kills Evie, that's a good martyr for The Cause and a different threat out of the way. It's Win Win, I think. I guess the Best Possible Scenario from Michael's point of view would have been if Xena had killed Caligula and his guards had then executed Eve and/or Xena. But that would have required possibly more precise timing than could easily be arranged. Oh, and another bonus - Aphrodite loses her godhood, that's one less fish in the pond. > Then Michael suddenly decides to take matters into his own hands and kill > Aphrodite. When did he find out she was tied to Caligula? We don't know - > he didn't have clue in the beginning of the episode, he said as much, but > now he knows. So now he decides to murder a defenseless woman - not very > angelic. Since when was Michael ever angelic? More like a power-hungry CIA director. (Substitute KGB if you prefer). > Then Xena comes along stops him and in order to save the murderous > angel, Eli or some power strips Xena of her god-killing power. Michael is > beside himself with joy, but why? I can understand why Michael's boss might want to save his No 1 employee from being drowned... all sorts of reasons including prestige and precedents - but why that also included taking Xena's powers off her I don't know. Possibly Big Brother only has the ability to confer powers on others (such as Mike and Xena), not to take direct action himself. So the only way he could save Mike was to hex Xena. > Yeah he's safe but Caligula is still a > dangerous god and now the one person who was supposed to kill him can't. > Michael doesn't take the opportunity to kill Aphrodite he just goes away. I think maybe he was a bit shaken and just wanted to get the hell out of there. Being nearly drowned tends to have that effect on people. > And while we are asking questions - why didn't he just kill Caligula when > he had the chance? Why use Eve at all? Because maybe Michael himself didn't have the ability to kill gods? Or how about this: Michael: "And he'll destroy anyone who won't submit to him." X: "Including angels, no doubt." I think Michael was just afraid to do his own dirty work in case Caligula turned out to be too good for him. He was afraid for his own neck. > > Xena visits Ares and Eve in prison. She breaks all the bad news: Caligula > is a full god, Aphrodite is sane but mortal, and she has lost the power to > kill gods. Ares is pessimistic. Eve is still miffed at mom for trampling > over her decision to allow a lunatic to butcher her. Is it just me, or does anybody else think Evie is so annoying Xena should have let her have her wish... ;) > Xena says she is > still her mom and will stop people from carving her daughter up like a > Christmas turkey whenever she deems it necessary. Eve says Xena can't > protect from evil forever. Well says Xena... > > > > The next scene we see Xena on horseback dragging Eve through the streets of > Rome. No it's not tough love on Xena's part just part of the plan. We *know* Evie just gets off on that sort of stuff ;) > > Caligula pronounces her the winner but Gabrielle makes her announcement. > Saba is actually Xena, Warrior Princess. Caligula is puzzled - yes he > heard of Xena.the god slayer! A horrible realization over comes him. The > same realization comes to the crowd watching the race. Xena has come to > kill Caligula. The emperor is terrified and the crowd is elated. They > chant Xena's name and children throw rotten fruit at the cowering godling. > Xena knows she can no longer kill gods so she must convince Caligula to > kill himself. With real pity for this fool who wanted to be a god she > convinces him that the only way he can live forever is to make the ultimate > sacrifice. He must sacrifice himself. Yes Caligula fearfully agrees it is > the only way. He then runs himself through with Xena's sword and achieves > an awful immortality. I couldn't really follow the logic. Or at least, I could, but I didn't find it really convincing. Maybe it was more convincing to a deranged monomaniac. > Later that day the Gabrielle asks Xena how she feels. "Dirty' says Xena. > She caused the death of a man who certainly did evil things but was also > very damaged. She was manipulated and used to do Michael's bidding and she > isn't happy. Aphrodite also isn't happy she's mortal but is touched that > Gabrielle did so much for her and considers her a friend. Eve asks her > mother how she feels about losing her greatest gift - the power to kill > gods. Sounds more like a curse than a gift, considering the situations it got Xena into. > > This episode is also just loaded with YAXIs and contradictions. Why does > Michael put Eve in mortal danger if she is so important to Eli's cause? Dead easy. There's nothing so useful as a dead martyr. Dead Eve would be just as useful as live Eve to The Cause. > If Michael can kill Aphrodite why doesn't her simply kill Caligula? Good question. Maybe he only had the ability to kill Aphrodite because she was 99% gone already. > How > did Caligula get the power to suck Aphrodite dry? Finally how does > Caligula kill himself? We saw Callisto stab herself without effect in > Necessary Evil. Caligula does the same thing but dies. Is it that he > willed himself to death or is it the fact that his "worshippers" turned on > him that causes him to be vulnerable. Lots of questions. Any answers out > there? > Actually, in ANE, Callisto wasn't even a god at that stage, just immortal. Maybe immortals don't have the power to kill immortals but gods have the power to kill gods (including themselves). Or, to put it more logically: Immortals' *only* superpower is immortality i.e. they can't die (or at least, not by any ordinary means, including suicide). Gods, on the other hand, have many superpowers (including immortality); this may include the power to kill other gods or immortals. Remember that the only reason Ares never simply killed Hercules (an immortal) was because Zeus had put a ban on it. Therefore, Caligula as a god could kill himself. This is in conflict with Callisto, who as a god couldn't kill herself. OTOH, Callisto was an immortal before she ever became a god; maybe her prior immortality 'carried over' and got sorta 'fixed' when she became a god, thus making her more immortal than Caligula was. This is the best I can do. Not the most rock-solid of answers, I'm afraid. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 11:56:42 -0500 (EST) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: Fw: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] << The God You Know>> This a forward of a message I sent to cr. I have no idea how this will look. I hope it is readable - -------Original Message------- From: cr "I think at this stage, after the events of Heart of Darkness, that Xena would hardly be about to do anything at Michael's request." I don't know. Caligula has just committed a brutal massacre so I think Xena would be up for taking him down. I see this a bit of blackmail more of an indication of Michael's personality. He will now use threats when threats aren't necessary. It is, I believe, just an arrogant exertion of power - - he is showing Xena who is boss. "I guess we could see Heaven at that time as a bit like the Catholic Church in medieval times... all sorts of factions and sects and power groupings manouvreing for supremacy." Actually I believe Michael is jealous of Eve or the new world view she represents. Eve and Eli's message was really about sef-determination. Mankind doesn't really need supernatural beings to control their fate. If people actually followed Eli's message as expounded in Seeds Of Faith no one needs the gods and by extension they don't need angels. Each persona can have a persoanl relationship with whatever supreme being Eli answers to. Eve answers directly to Eli (I assume) and the angels are unnecessary. "Since when did they ever matter to him except as means to an end?" This actually quite a revelation in this episode. Michael always had a more or less as a good character. In Heart Of Darkness however much he threatened Xena he still seemed to working for the greater good. Here he seems to be working at cross purposes. He seems to be willing to sacrifice the greater good to fullfill some secret agenda that involves actually getting Eve killed or at least seemed so to me. Michael with his attack on Aphrodite seems very much in danger of starting down the road Lucifer traveled to Hell. "And I thought it was just a bit of eye candy for the Gabfans ;-)" And that too ;-> "What a lovely guy! I believe in the original script he actually seduces Eve. Evidently TPTB decided that was a bit much even for Michael." Humm seducing Eve - now that would have been interesting. Michael and Lucifer are starting to look very much alike. Luci might have to watch out - he just may lose his new kingdom. < doing what the demon with wings told him to do - kill Eli's messenger. >> "Oh, I missed that! I should have read ahead.... so we do find out what Michael was up to. What a rat." I just love the look on Xena's face when hears that piece of news. You just know Michael is in so much trouble. "I was *really*, really disappointed by that! I just felt cheated. Michael had worked so hard to deserve being killed by Xena, and at the last moment his boss Big Brother went and saved his scrawny neck. How intensely frustrating." Actually found this part confusing. Granted Heaven probably preferred not have one of its angels killed but stripping Xena of her power at this moment in time seemed a bit self-defeating. Unless this was less abour Xena and more about Michael. I do see Eli as a good character so I believe what Eli has done is neatly remove Xena from Michael's power. Without her power to kill gods, she has lost any usefulness to Michael. Eli also knows Xena a pretty resourceful gal - if anyone can kill a god with no special powers Xena can. He's right of course. We don't see Michael again until You Are There and then he seems rather peeved and is oddly sitting in a cave - not on a fluffy cloud. I have always wondered if Michael was in a kind of exile for his behavior in TGYK. "I think he was playing high stakes, and figured Xena was never going to kill Caligula for any other reason. Besides, if Xena lost her power to kill gods, that's one less potential threat to him. ... So, Xena kills Caligula, that's one threat out of the way. Caligula kills Evie, that's a good martyr for The Cause and a different threat out of the way. It's Win Win, I think. I guess the Best Possible Scenario from Michael's point of view would have been if Xena had killed Caligula and his guards had then executed Eve and/or Xena. But that would have required possibly more precise timing than could easily be arranged. Oh, and another bonus - Aphrodite loses her godhood, that's one less fish in the pond." Yeah from Michael's perspective that is a good outcome. But from his bosses perspective is a good outcome. I think Michael is really at this point a kind of loose cannon. "Since when was Michael ever angelic? More like a power-hungry CIA director. (Substitute KGB if you prefer)." Acually I think of him as a fanatic. He seems to me to follow Chuck Jones definition pretty well" A fanatic is some one who doubles his efforts after he has forgotten the original purpose of of his efforts (or soemthing like that). Michael wanted to stop Caligula - suddenly he is trying to sacrifice Eli's messenger, he come in conflict with his god slayer and is trying to kill victims (Aphrodite) instead fighting the real danger. He has lost forcus. "I think Michael was just afraid to do his own dirty work in case Caligula turned out to be too good for him. He was afraid for his own neck." Michael never struck me as a coward. He fought well against the demons of Hell and did take Xena on in HOD and here. Perhaps you are right that he simply didn't have enough power to kill a strong god but Aphrodite would have been easier in her weakened state (Referring to Caligula's suicide) "I couldn't really follow the logic. Or at least, I could, but I didn't find it really convincing. Maybe it was more convincing to a deranged monomaniac. I don't know Caligula may have been a bit suicidal anyway. Anyway he thought he was dead anyway. His people have turned on him rather suddenly and he finds himself without real allies. I think on some level he may actually trust Xena - at this point she is the only one who actually is being nice to him. So believed and did as he was told. Caligula was actually very pathetic and Xena knew this. She used this and she didn't like herself for doing it. < gods. >> "Sounds more like a curse than a gift, considering the situations it got Xena into." Yes I agree is was a curse. I don't think Xena saw it as a gift - a gift denotes a good thing. As long it was used to protect her child it was gift but once she was reguarded by the Heavens as their asassine, it was a curse. You notice Xena didn't seemed unhappy about the development "Dead easy. There's nothing so useful as a dead martyr. Dead Eve would be just as useful as live Eve to The Cause." Perhaps. Certainly religions have used martyrs to further thier cause. It is however a practice that is sef-defeating. Certainly the early Church abandoned encouraging martydom very quickly - they realized that live followers were better than dead ones. They told their people to do what was necessary to stay alive - share aligience to false gods if necessary - if they kept the true religion in their own souls it wasn't a sin. So a live Eve getting converts would still be better that dead Eve, I think. "Actually, in ANE, Callisto wasn't even a god at that stage, just immortal. .. Gods, on the other hand, have many superpowers (including immortality); this may include the power to kill other gods or immortals. Remember that the only reason Ares never simply killed Hercules (an immortal) was because Zeus had put a ban on it. Therefore, Caligula as a god could kill himself. This is in conflict with Callisto, who as a god couldn't kill herself. OTOH, Callisto was an immortal before she ever became a god; maybe her prior immortality 'carried over' and got sorta 'fixed' when she became a god, thus making her more immortal than Caligula was. This is the best I can do. Not the most rock-solid of answers, I'm afraid." I fear there is no way round this YAXI so your expanation is good as any. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:08:32 -0600 From: "Daniel T. Miller" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Spam Emergency! I believe my Juno address has been stolen! Sorry for not posting OT. But I did not want to take the chance this was filtered out. To make up, I promise to post more. I have some time now. And I have a backlog of a few nice items. I'm getting bounce backs from people I don't know with spam filters sending back spam crap I did not send them! Meredith and Bonnie, I will probably be unsubscribing and then resubscribing under a new address. First going to see what Juno says. And I have to send posts to the e-mail providers of the bounce backs I have received. This is just my address that was stolen! I keep a very small address book and I checked for viruses and worms. I just wanted to tell all of you folks this because these pieces of **** are all evasive and there are enough of you that there is a very good chance you may have already this crap with my address. Don't filter my address out yet. Juno may need it for evidence. I just e-mailed them before writing this note. I probably create a new address tonight. Man, this is almost enough to make change my views about gun control. :~) Baseball bat, yeah. . .five minutes alone with this d*****d. . . What worse is that it is one of those penis spams! Regards, Daniel T. Miller This time it's me. ************************************************************************* *************************** "Always keep your bowler on in times of stress and watch out for diabolical masterminds." - --EMMA PEEL ************************************************************************* *************************** ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #85 *************************************