From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #29 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, January 29 2003 Volume 03 : Number 029 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] Jennifer Sky [Junejanu@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: HOD [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: HOD ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:58:23 EST From: Junejanu@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Jennifer Sky On the TV's - This Thurs, ABC, in a new 2-hour Columbo movie (Peter Falk). 8 pm EST ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 07:37:36 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Saturday 25 January 2003 11:45, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/2003 9:13:54 PM Central Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > I also like to think Auto and Xena got it on in Royal Couple of Thieves, > > there was a moment when it looked as if they were possibly working up to > > it, > > and besides, Auto was quite a presentable guy and my male instincts say > > that > > after he put in all that effort, he was entitled to a reward. Xena > > might have enjoyed it too. ;)>> > > What moment was that, pray tell, Mr. If It Ain't On Screen? And if you > believe "presentable guy" and "put in all that effort" equals "entitled to > a reward" is "real" because it happens on screen so much, I have one thing > to say: Bwahahahahahaha! Oooh I knew that would get ya goin'! ;-) It was the scene where they were changing, shortly after Sinteres unmasked them. Auto: You know, it seems pretty clear to me that Hercules doesn't know a diamond in the rough when he sees one. I mean-- look at you. X: Care to explain that? Auto: Well, Hercules could have any woman he wanted. Obviously, he just passed you by. X: Is that supposed to be a compliment? Auto: No-- just a fact, but-- if he let someone like you get away-- then he must be a-- well, all right, yes, it-- was a compliment. X: Hercules isn't as blind as you think; but neither one of us wants to fool ourselves. Auto: And then there are those of us who-- live to fool ourselves. I said they were *possibly* working up to it. After all a thousand subtexters and fanfic writers have based elaborate fantasies on lesser grounds than that! ;) But do I claim it as something that 'must' have happened? Nah! > > > above). Even if we do read different things into it. There has to be > > a line somewhere, even if it's slightly blurred as such lines always > > are.>> > > Xena threw food to a beggar kid. Xena buried her warrior stuff. Xena > stopped some slavers from messin' with Gabs & Co. Xena stood there while > her kinfolk stoned her. Xena let a peasant girl ride her horse and stay at > her camp. Helluva story ... "line." I'm not talking about the storyline. I'm talking about the line (or specifically the boundary) between what is explicit on screen and what is inferred or extrapolated or on occasion just plain invented by nutty fans. I'd say, if anyone wants to say "this is a 'fact' " then there is very little latitude for interpretation. Almost none, in fact, since it surely can't be claimed as an indisputable 'fact' if more than one tenable interpretation exists. > > It's probably KT's Catholic upbringing. Just as well she's not a > > Freudian as well ;-)>> > > I ain't touchin' that with a 10-foot serpent. Freudians probably have a thing about big snakes, ya know. I expect they're all symbolic of something. ;) > > >Yes, Gabrielle was in an untenable position. However, I was more > > > inclined to see hypocrisy before Gabrielle killed Meridian. It was > > > easier for her > > > > to > > > > >eschew "taking a life" until confronted with the reality. After, I saw > > >someone desperately trying to balance her own ideals (with full > > > knowledge of her own capacity to kill) with the love/responsibility she > > > felt toward Xena and the Amazons. And, don't forget, it's Xena who > > > tells Gabs not to worry, as long as she's with Xena. They both knew > > > and accepted the price of being together. > > > > > >-- Ife > > > > I think that was a rationalisation on Xena's part.>> > > "Rationalization." Hmmm, you mean like Gabs did with Princess "Kill `em > All"? I mean, Xena was stuck with the little blond limpet, so she just looked at it in the best way she could. A "It'll be all right on the night" sort of approach. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:09:54 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: HOD On Sunday 26 January 2003 01:35, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > " Hmm, interesting. Could it be that Eli and Michael aren't in the same > faction, Heavenwise? " > > I think that is very possible. I am starting with the premiss that Eli > really believed what he preached about non-violence and is a good guy. If > this is the case why should Eli suddenly decide he needs a god killer at > all and why burden Xena with that power. Also remember Xena had the power > to kill Ares in Seed of Faith but Eli stopped her then. So I think the > power either came from Michael or his boss. Well, a possible reason for Eli needing Xena to kill gods, would be to protect his messenger, Eve. *But* I think it would be more in line with Eli's pacifist beliefs for him to just let Eve get killed. So yes, I guess the god-killing power did come from Michael. As to why *Eli* should have taken it off Xena in The God You Know, thus saving Michael, but facing Xena with an impossible job in defeating Caligula, I don't know. It could be a case of Eli letting his principles override his own interests (in saving Michael, who was totally instrumental in setting up Eli's messenger Eve as the sacrificial goat. It would be too cynical to suggest that Eli approved of that because martyrs are good for business). It would certainly be an indication of serious lack of strategic judgement, so far as efforts to defeat Caligula go, but then Eli was never noted as a strategist, I think. > "Or maybe, like Olympus, Heaven is not a monolithic organisation. Maybe > it does have factions that don't always agree with each other." > > I quoted a Islamic tale previously about Lucifer's fall coming about > because he was jealous of mankind. I'm sort of intriqued with the idea > that Archangels don't really respect mankind. So Michael uses them when he > can. Perhaps he doesn't even respect Eli and that's why he is willing to > sacrifice Eve in TGYK. > > CherylA I'd say very likely, given Michael's attitude to everyone else he comes into contact with, he doesn't respect Eli. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:53:48 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] On Sunday 26 January 2003 23:41, Cheryl Ande wrote: > # > # > # > # > ## > # > # > > Legacy > > > > This episode was the original episode that fan fiction writer Melissa Good > was hired to write. Rob Tapert wanted to try to get some fan input into > the series and with recommendation from Steven Sears, she was hired. Good > known for her alt stories or romantic Xena and Gabrielle stories is a good > storyteller, as she has said, with the ability to write fast. While most > fans of her stories (and I am one) like her romantic take on Xena and > Gabrielle, what is often over looked is her often dark view of mankind. In > Legacy Good examines not what our gals will sacrifice for the greater good > but what they won't sacrifice. It is a character study of both Gabrielle > and Xena but mostly it's about Xena's holds above the greater good. As I've found from my (occasional) exchanges with Missy on the Whoosh list, she has a healthy streak of hard-edged reality that doubtless saves her stories from sinking into sentimentality. (Not that I read fanfic, I'm just going by her XWP episodes). For example, in Legacy, almost any other writer would have had Desert Boy in a coma, from which he would emerge dramatically at the end of the ep to plead for Gabrielle's life and forgiveness. Not Missy. She killed 'im, stone dead. ;) I like that. > They find a group of Bedouins being harassed by > another group on horseback. They of course ride to the rescue, which they > accomplish in short order. Winning the admiration of one the defeated > Bedouins and the ire of the Kahina, the rescued leader of the other group. > Kahina is incensed about X & G's interference but is more irate when she > discovers they say they are the legendary Xena and Gabrielle, the Battling > Bard of Potadeia. Xena confirms her identity with a spectacular chakram > toss and is stunned the formally irate woman now kneels before her. That's kinda an old story, of course. My favourite version (from the fifties) is of the irate traffic cop who stopped a rather fast driver and said "Who the hell do you think you are, Juan Manuel Fangio?" "Yes." > On the way back to Kahina's camp the pair are again caught in a blinding > sand storm. Both women are disoriented. Suddenly Gabrielle, having been > knocked to the ground by her bolting horse, looks up to see a mysterious > figure approaching Xena from the rear. He appears to have a knife and Xena > doesn't realize he is at her back. Gabrielle attacks and kills the > stranger. The stranger is Korah and his knife was only a scroll. > Gabrielle has followed her gut and the consequences were terrible - she has > killed her gentle friend. > > Now the question here is whether Gabrielle screwed up. Wah HEY!!!! And I wasn't even going to mention it this time round But, incidentally, I do not consider killing DB by accident a 'screw-up', just a tragic accident. The 'screw-up' was in confessing it at the worst possible moment. (I was yelling at the screen "Shut UP, Gabrielle!!" only Gabrielle wasn't the word I was using ;) It is odd, though, that this ep follows right after Gurkhan, which is the other ep where (IMO!!) Gabby right royally screwed up. Like, these are the two prime examples in the whole series, I think. I was starting to wonder what was going on in Gabby's head. In Season 5, IIRC, Gabby was quite capable and generally acquitted herself very well, as she did in Coming Home. Why she suddenly got the speed-wobbles and went all unreliable in these eps, I don't know. Maybe being possessed by Mephistopheles left her a bit - umm, wobbly. > Now we have the most controversial point of the story. Xena hasn't > actually lied but she has allowed a falsehood to be believed. She did this > to save Gabrielle - not to save the mission. I believe her intention was > to tell Tazere the truth but when she saw everyone's volatile reaction to > Korah's death, she realized no one was going to listen to reason. The lie > was easy and convenient so she let it ride. The flaw in this plan was that > Gabrielle who would have to go along with this. This is why I think Xena > never intended to lie - she knows Gabrielle would not go along with this > lie merely to save herself. Indeed Gabrielle doesn't. Gabrielle tells the > truth especially when an innocent will suffer because of her guilt. Is > Gabrielle being selfish? Is she jeopardizing the greater good as defined > by the mission? Yes. She has however found the thing she will not > sacrifice for the greater good - she will not sacrifice her honor. She > knows the power that lies have to corrupt the soul - she watched how her > lies nearly destroyed Xena and how Xena's lies nearly destroyed their > friendship. She will never live a lie again - even if it means her death. So, how many people will have to die for Gabby's 'honour' as you put it? (I would have said 'conscience' but I think we mean the same thing). And if the Roman had blood on his spear - whose blood was it? Was he really innocent? (snip) > > In the valley the Bedouins are in disarray. Xena and Gabrielle ride up. > Kahina and Tazere are suspicious but Gabrielle says they could have escaped > but they came back. She came to try to make sure Korah didn't dies in vain > and Xena says she came to keep her word to Kahina about fighting with her. > Tazere accepts their help but Kahina knows Xena betrayed them and she says > to Gabrielle that she never told the complete truth about Xena in her > scrolls. What I think Kahina meant was that Gabrielle never revealed how > truly ruthless Xena could be in achieving her goals especially when it came > to protecting what is hers. I liked that dialogue. Kahina knew there was something fishy going on and both Gabby and Xena told her to shut up and get on with it. Kah: "We don't have enough people, even with the surprise." G: "You have Xena. What more do you want?" Kah(to Xena): "Funny how the Romans showed up just in time to save your friend-- almost like it was planned." X: "You got the fight you wanted. Stop complaining." Kah (to Gabs): "Left a few details out of those stories, didn't you?" Xena, in that line of hers, as good as admitted she'd set the whole thing up. > I think this was an excellent episode. It had great production values, > costuming was wonderful, and direction was good. The script presented and > interesting moral dilemma that had no easy answer. I believe Xena should > have told the truth - the situation would have not been any worse than it > was. Xena complicated things by allowing a lie to be believed. Once the > lie is revealed she discredited and Gabrielle is still put in danger. > Although Xena believes that Gabrielle had to be put to death for Korah's > death there were obvious loopholes in the law. After the battle Gabrielle > is free because she saves Tazere's life in battle so perhaps if everyone > had been upfront about the truth they could have found a way out of the > death sentence. Some could argue and have that Gabrielle was somehow > obligated to go along with Xena's cover-up. I don't believe this - > Gabrielle had a right to protect her honor. I however also believe that > Xena when saved Gabrielle from the execution she was right. Gabrielle > sentence was vengeance not justice and Xena had a right and duty to save > Gabby from injustice. Oh dear, this is as muddy reasoning as Gabs' 'Way of Peace' in Season 4. You claim Gabby was right to volunteer for execution. But didn't she *know* Xena would save her anyway (or certainly try to). Did she have the right to put Xena through that (all over again)? At least this time Xena didn't get herself half-killed in the process. > It's a complicated situation with a lot of ambiguities. You can say that again. ;) Actually, I liked the ep anyway. (Quite unlike Gurkhan). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:21:22 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: HOD - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" " As to why *Eli* should have taken it off Xena in The God You Know, thus saving Michael, but facing Xena with an impossible job in defeating Caligula, I don't know. " It is possible after having seen Xena fight all manner of demons in India that Eli was confident that she didn't need her slaying powers to get rid of Caligula, which of course she didn't " CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 18:40:19 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" "So, how many people will have to die for Gabby's 'honour' as you put it? (I would have said 'conscience' but I think we mean the same thing). > > And if the Roman had blood on his spear - whose blood was it? Was he really innocent?" He certainly was innocent of Korah death. To say that because we suspect him of some other crime that we can with a clear conscious frame for a crime which some else committed, however inconvenient, is wrong. In the US there has been incidents of just this exact thing. Police framing someone for a crime that they didn't commit and then excusing it with the excuse "well he probably did something worse we didn't catch him for so its OK." It's not right and it is certainly not something I thing Xena would stood for since she was fighting against it when Gabby spoke up. I don't believe Gabrielle was obligated to go along with Xena's cover-up. Perhaps it would have made life easier for Xena if Gabby had maintained the lie but lies have a tendency to come back bite you on the ass. Ask Nixon or Clinton and then the fall out is worse. It was Xena's lie, not Gabrielle's killing of Korah, that made Kahina reject Xena's help. I just think everything would have worked out better if the truth was told in the first place, they certainly couldn't have been worse. The truth would have at least shown that Xena and Gabrielle were honorable people and perhaps that would have had some calming effect on Tazere. Who knows perhaps in the Bedouin code of conduct there was a provision for accidental death (perhaps Gabby only would lost an eye, she'd look rather dashing with an eye-patch). > > " I liked that dialogue. Kahina knew there was something fishy going on and > both Gabby and Xena told her to shut up and get on with it. > > Kah: "We don't have enough people, even with the surprise." > G: "You have Xena. What more do you want?" > Kah(to Xena): "Funny how the Romans showed up just in time to save your > friend-- almost like it was planned." > X: "You got the fight you wanted. Stop complaining." (I always wanted the line to be : "you got the fight you wanted. Quit your bitchin'") > "You claim Gabby was right to volunteer for execution. But didn't she *know* Xena would save her anyway (or certainly try to). Did she have the right to put Xena through that (all over again)? At least this time Xena didn't get herself half-killed in the process." Well Xena looked bored any way. Gabby just liven things up for her. Why do you think Xena keeps her around? Saving Gabby keeps her skills up. CherylA > > Actually, I liked the ep anyway. (Quite unlike Gurkhan). > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #29 *************************************