From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #24 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, January 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 024 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] To have bean or not to have bean [cr ] Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cande@sunlink.net] [chakram-refugees] Wisecracks from the irreverant [mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: To have bean or not to have bean [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] SPOILERS FOR HOA AND HOD AND IOM [cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] To have bean or not to have bean On Friday 24 January 2003 09:42, KTL wrote: > E.g. Xena: > "Gabrielle think! Everything about this world has 'bean' a Torment. We've > 'bin' guided through it for a reason." And our local Woolworths supermarket has bins of beans, among other things. I'm not sure what that proves. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:58:26 +0000 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Who's Gurkhan On Friday 24 January 2003 00:08, Cheryl Ande wrote: > -------Original Message------- > From: cr > > > "Oh dear, I'm going to be a heartless bastard here and say "What's all > this making excuses for bad behavior?" Sarah was thoroughly > obnoxious and I was waiting all episode to see her get the smacking she > deserved. Then she turns out to be Gabby's long-lost sister or whatever and > so immune. > Grrrrr." > > Well maybe she did get the stuffing knocked out of her. There was a fight > scene between Gabby and someone we never saw. > > I wasn't making an excuse for bad behavior, I was saying that her behavior > can be explained by what she went through - that's not excusing anything. > Everyone reacts differently to trauma - someone else in her position might > have been a better person or someone else might have just committed > suicide. She coped by trying to survive by becoming like those around her, > not unreasonable reaction for an adolescent. Well, in fact, she (apparently) became the worst of the harem. She might have hated the life and tried to escape, instead she apparently saw it as a career opportunity. > The Xenaverse is filled with > people who cope with tragedy in much more nasty ways than becoming a bitch > - Xena tried to rule the world and killed anyone who stood in her way, > Callisto was a homicidal maniac, and Eve, whatever her problem was , wanted > to both rule the world and be a homicidal maniac. Now Xena gets to be a > hero, Eve the apostle of love, and Callisto an angel but Sarah must be have > the crap kicked out of her because she was a bitch and kicked Xena in the > nose. Seems that Sarah deserves to be forgiven as much as anybody else in > the series - she was kidnapped, raped, and had her family murdered, seems > by the standards of the series she should have the blood of thousands on > her hands by now. Doubtless my standard of judgement is completely skewed. I can forgive Callisto (and Evil Xena) almost anything because they were proper villains, they did it with style. Sarah was just obnoxious, stuck up and snooty. That is a far worse crime, at least in TV-fantasy-land. ;) > "Xena gets viciously beaten by Gurky and grovels to him, and then > *doesn't* get to kill him personally which is the only thing would've made > me feel better about that scene." > > Been through this but I don't see it as "groveling" more as manipulation. I just could not *believe* that Xena could bring herself to grovel (and I can't think of any other word for it :) after what Gurkhan did to her. And I'm amazed that Gurkhan could believe it. > Actually I think Gurkhan's end is appropriate he was a coward and died in > a humiliating manner. First he gets seduced and betrayed, then beaten by > an irritating blond, and his head loped off while dressed as a woman. But don't you think, after Gurkhan's treatment of Xena, that she had the *right* to kill him? Personally, I see that as the only thing that could redress what Gurkhan did to Xena. > "Gabby gets the chance and bottles out, just does a "I hate you" tantrum > that I'm sure impressed Gurky no end. " > > Honestly Gurkhan looked scared witless. I'm sure he never thought that > any woman could get the best of him never-the-less beat the crap out of > him. He probably thought she was going to kill him. To me, Gabby's assault on Gurkhan was a bit like a childish tantrum - "I hate you. I hate you." > "I did not find this episode satisfying. :) > > I expect it had lots of subtexty moments though." > > Only one major one really - Xena's hallucination of Gabrielle in the > dungeon > > Cheryl Oh, and I thought there was that Gabby-looks-after-Xena thing after Xena was released. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:59:12 -0500 (EST) From: cande@sunlink.net Subject: Re: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> From: KTL "I wrote a couple of posts about HOD, which is one of my favorite evereps and talked about this when it first aired. I don't remember if I was back on Chakram then or not and so don't know if I posted them here ornot. Since I loved this ep so much, I would like to post these to throw them into the gods-fueled bubbling pots and plots. My apologies if I've posted these here before." Well I'd love to read them. Did he convince Callisto to impregnate Xena so she would give >> birth to the messanger and therefore be forced to become the god slayer?.... purposes? Without the guilt would she be so willing to sacrifice her future > to be Eli's messanger?>> "Hooooo, THAT'S an intriquing thought." Well than cr because he got me to think along those lines. It is interesting though people always think like this "wow the tornado destroyed the whole neighborhood but didn't touch my house what a miracle" but they never wonder why the tornado came in the first place or why the rest of town was destroyed. So it is with Eve, if she could have had her revelation a few years earlier then all those poor Elijians and Joxer wouldn't have died. The fact that there is no revelation until Michael's god slayer is in danger is a bit suspicious. > "LOL! Well, perhaps just the fact that he lolly-gagged around with Xena,going on picnics, lying down with Big X for a nap, going to orgies,instead of getting right to it and attacking her every time her back wasturned so he could toss her down to hell was slothful. Would any but aslothful soul laze around at an orgy so long without getting right down tobusiness? There's your sloth, matey." Yep Lucie boy was easily distracted wasn't he. Cheryl > > CherylA > > > > cr > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:11:55 -0500 From: mirrordrum Subject: [chakram-refugees] Wisecracks from the irreverant watching yesterday with jb, my xenaho partner of retiring habits and pithy commentary. Velasca shouts: i have all the help i need right here. ambrosia. a gift from the gods to make a god. (transformation occurs) jb mutters: hmmmm. makes a great spot remover, too. i crack up. other amusements xena tells the amazons to spread out. they immediately clump up. and my favorite yaxi of the ep: ephiny's "cuckoo cuckoo." that cracks me up. do you suppose becoming a god wipes out one's memory of amazon sneaky codes? apparently it also makes one unable to see what the enemy is up to. marvelous. love that ep. i don't think it ever makes anyone's top 10 list, does it? but every time i see it i think it has a few of the top scenes in the show in terms of acting. the whole interchange between callie and gab when callie is just released is marvelous. well, that isn't one of ren's better bits for some reason, but hudson and luce are marvelous. xena behind gab sneering her head off as *only* xena can sneer while callisto does her number on gab. and hudson's very nice work in the village scene where xena cops to her crimes to the extreme disinterest of the villagers. i thought all 3 did a marvelous job even though they weren't on screen together. hudson especially did well. and my favorite: the fireside scene between callisto and gab. i think that really is one of renee's best bits of acting, maybe the best, to that point in the show. no extraneous head movements, minimal facial work, understated and very, very powerful. the sort of half laugh after callisto says "how long did it take him to die was remarkable. she nailed it. that's a scene i'd love to hear her comments on. how did she ever come up with that laugh? (psssst--somebody nudge thelo. i think he's gone to sleep over there) and of course hudson. . .well, she was just superb, imo. the real pain beneath the irreversibly vicious psycho. it happens and she iced it. md--happily reveling in the way back machine No blood for oil. No war on Iraq. http://www.afsc.org/ http://www.nion.us/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:24:29 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena In a message dated 1/24/03 4:33:09 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << > > Others we didn't see. Ooooooooooooo,>> > > > > Sure, why not? Reformed Xena and that guy in Chariots might've go it on > > while his three kids were asleep. > > > ARGH! ARGH! WHY didn't she? ARGH ARGH ARGH.>> > > That's my point. Who's to say she didn't? Because in the show it was fairly clear that she didn't. The show is sacrosanct. Anything goes in fanfic. But what we see is in the show is what was. Per. ee. ohd.>> Admittedly, they didn't have much opportunity. But couldn't they have had a "quickie" before she put on her battle dress for that meeting? I happen to agree with you. I'm just saying I'm not sure it could be ruled out entirely. Plus, I like making you growl. I do have it both ways. But only in extrapolation. What's on the screen is separate from what was never on the screen.>> I'd like to agree with you on that, but I can't. Partly it's because we all "see" different things. Partly it's because it's impossible to show everything, intended or not. I didn't see Xena have sex with Marcus or Ulysses, but what I did see strongly suggested it. I never saw the moment in the Herc trilogy when Xena suddenly decided to turn from her evil ways, yet I believed her when she said that to Herc (even tho her actions up to that point showed her clearly capable of duplicitousness and betrayal.) <> LOL! You and guilt. We'll have to agree to disagree on that, as I still think it was more a question of timing or priorities, than penance. > That Gabrielle cannot be a pacifist and continue to travel with Xena.>> > > Ah. I agree she had her doubts, but if not for the vision, I think she was > committed to making it work. What did she say at the end of Convert? > Something about Gabs not having to worry about that, as long as she had Xena. > But this is hypocrisy of the highest order. I don't kill because I'm a pacifist, but if you hurt or kill me, my soulmate there will kill you back. I don't kill, but I will exhort my Amazons to kill with no qualms nor hesitation. It was hopeless for Gabrielle to try to be a true pacifist and still stay with Xena the reforming Warrior Princess.>> Yes, Gabrielle was in an untenable position. However, I was more inclined to see hypocrisy before Gabrielle killed Meridian. It was easier for her to eschew "taking a life" until confronted with the reality. After, I saw someone desperately trying to balance her own ideals (with full knowledge of her own capacity to kill) with the love/responsibility she felt toward Xena and the Amazons. And, don't forget, it's Xena who tells Gabs not to worry, as long as she's with Xena. They both knew and accepted the price of being together. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:24:24 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Spoilers for HOD, HOA, FURIES, MOTHERHOOD, MB, A&C In a message dated 1/24/03 2:52:03 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: HOD, HOA, FURIES, MOTHERHOOD, MB, A&C S P A C E S P A C E S P A C E [much respectful snipping] << And this is the Xena whom we see at the beginning of HOD. Xena was certainly NOT herself. The incredible cost of trying to control herself, of her struggle to not give in totally to evil and thus lose her fight with Lucifer kept breaking through. I think this was what Lucy was portraying--a seething, barely restrained rising evil that Xena had to fight to keep constrained in order to win in this situation. It made her half-crazed, cranky and irrational, barely holding up against the morass of wild and dangerous emotions awash in her corrupted heart. She's half lunatic again. And if she loses control and gives in to the draw of the evil in her heart and accepts her fate to become the queen of hell, the gods win and her family loses. Yet again.>> You know what struck me as even more of a challenge? I felt this was as much Xena as the "good" Xena -- that capacity for being naughty that Xena has in spades. I felt she relished every minute of the opportunity to be completely free of the restraints she could usually summon. That, instead of fighting what she could no longer completely control, she went with -- used - -- it to achieve her goals. I saw her has just as rational, focused and wry as always -- just in a more "fleshly" way. To me, this was as much "evil" Xena as before -- except that her knowledge of a better choice and mission gave her more control, even tho the darkness inside tried to take that away that control. <> Yes, this was the Xena Alti promised - the ultimate weapon, the supreme destroyer of body and soul. The irony is that Evil Xena could never have won without using the threat of physical power. Refomed/Devil Xena (like a fallen angel) did have the enormous spiritual resources that made her so formidable as friend or foe. It was clear in that moment that she had the allure to tempt anyone into hell -- had she so chosen. It was then that I truly realized the enormity of what she was capable of, had to fight nearly every day, and was willing to give up for a "normal" moral life. Back to our "flirting" thread, I can't think of any moment when Xena's sensuality wasn't so clear -- not just because she was infused with some other power, but because she had so much power within her already to rule and conquer on any level she chose. Heck, I'd've followed her to the bowls of hell myself. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:24:26 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: To have bean or not to have bean In a message dated 1/24/03 3:00:37 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << So my understanding of the character makes me believe that if she was going to off herself, she would have just done it with no theatrics or special set-ups. Just "Grunt" and it's done.>> Yes, you certainly give good reasons for that view. As I've said before, I tend not to get enmeshed in the psychological goings-on. I thought the burying of weapons was dramatic -- not to mention a better set-up for a series than having the main character off herself in the first few minutes. Again, I simply liked that it wasn't explicitly clear what she intended, but that it gave me a sense of someone not very happy with who she was or what she had been and possibly not sure of what she'd do next. Remember, at that point, we didn't know about her desire to confront problems or eschew messy, complicated rituals. Maybe in hindsight, we might say, "Naw, she wouldn't have killed herself." But when I first saw it (and even now) I wasn't sure. Lucy's > nearly expressionless portrayal allowed for any number of interpretations, > which I feel is realistic, given that Xena may not have thought much beyond > burying her "old" self. Even if she'd planned to go home all along, it was > her encounter with Gabrielle that seemed to give Xena the courage to face her > kinfolk bearing the "sins" and trappings of her "old" self. Hmmm. I don't see that that Gabrielle had anything to do with this at all. [snip] I think Xena intended from the first to go home and apologize to Cyrene. And she had intended to request forgiveness as Cyrene's daughter, not as the Warrior Princess.>> What I meant was, Xena had buried her WP outfit. Whatever her orginal intentions, she was going to probably assume the attire of an ordinary person - -- maybe go home and try to be simply "Cyrene's kid who made some mistakes." She could've left the WP stuff buried and bought a nice dress in Poteidaia. Instead, she arrives home in the very outfit that brought shame to her and her kinfolk. Why? I think her encounter with Gabs helped her come to terms with the useful aspects of what she wanted to bury. I think it gave her courage to confront her past reputation as the WP, rather than hide from or deny it as merely Cyrene's daughter. She admits to her mother that she knows she can't erase her shame, but that she'll spend her life trying. This is different to me than whatever her original intent was -- that's she's accepted who she is, for what it's worth, and isn't about to settle down knitting in Amphipolis with mom. <> LOL! Another ambiguous scene, wonderfully ripe with many interpretations. All I could see was that she was stunned and, again, not sure what she'd do next. And, once again, lil Gabs comes along to help her with the answer. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:43:13 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: HOD From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] SPOILERS FOR HOA AND HOD AND IOM Spoilers for HOA, HOD, IOM % $ & * @ # % ! + % $ & "This ep has many traces of prior arcs and antecedents fueling its story. Many different gods have been jerking Xena and her family around for a long, long time. It must have been Mephistopheles, king of hell, who sent Callisto out to woo Xena's soul two seasons and 27 years ago. He's been after her soul for a LONG time." Interesting. So the chosing Cyrene's tavern just isn't random but a deliberate choice. Meph is still carrying out a long term plan to get WP. he failed with Callisto so now he takes a personal interest in the case. Certainly destroying her mother, threatening her daughter and certainly playing hobbes with her long time companion will get Xena to come to him. I wonder if Meph wanted her not as his successor (since that meant his death) but as his general. She did a dandy job leading his demons in Fallen Angel. "And three seasons and 28 years ago it was Hope who said when plotting for her god against the WP, "As Xena goes, so goes the world."" I always wondered what Hope meant by that. Why was Xena so important? Certainly Hope did everything in her power to force Xena back into the cycle of violence and hate. She simply didn't kill Solan, she set her mother up as the fall guy. Hope did everything in her power to destroy all the people Xena loved either by murder or by destroying her faith in them. If Xena, a person who has the courage to rebuild her life her life in an extorindary way, can be corrupted then the rest of the puny mortal world will be no touble. "Somehow, for some reason, Xena is the key in this ongoing war of the gods. A number of dieties are battling to kill each other off and declare supremacy over heaven (Elysian fields) hell (Tartarus) and earth (New Zealand). The gods have worked Xena over for years to set her up and put her in the position she's in. Ooh good point. Yes everwhere she goes gods or demons take an interest in her - - Greece, India, the Norseland, even Japa. I think they are attracted by her spiritual strength and power or they just like tall blued-eyed women in leather. ....... "M: "Xena has killed most of the Olympian gods. She's the only mortalprepared to face this." (They've given her the chance to get experience in this.) R: "I hope she is prepared for all of our sakes." Again, they are certainly aware that Xena is on some track with enormous potential to effect the physical and spiritual world. Their boss of course is one of the ones who have pushed her to this point. It was their boss who brought Xena back from the dead and who made Xena the Mother of the Messenger. Michael was there when Eve was begun." So is this what the big set up has been for. Xena practices on the Olympians and now she's ready to take on Meph, heaven's real enemy. Was Eve existance only a ploy to make Xena heaven's god killer? It's interesting that Xena always has to kill gods to save Eve. In the God You Know Michael deliberately sends Eve in harms way to force Xena into killing Caligua. So is Eve important because she Eli's messanger or because she is the means to control Xena. Then when Eli takes Xena's god slaying power form her is he actually freeing Xena from Michael's power. Note that Xena says Eli took her power and not God. Meanwhile, back down on earth, Eve says to Gabrielle: "A great evil is coming Gabrielle. I can feel it." And Gabrielle answers, "Maybe that's because you're standing near the portal of hell." Well ha ha, funny line. But gee, maybe it's NOT that. Maybe it's because Lucifer is on his way. I never thought of interpreting Eve's line as referring to Lucifer but it fits so perfectly. Good catch! "Now I am totally baffled by the interpretation of some people that Xena tempted and corrupted an "innocent bystander". " Lucifer is no innocent. He is indeed there by his own free will but more importantly for selfish reasons. He wants the big promation - he doesn't seem terribly interested in saving mankind or even Heaven. He just wants up the corporate ladder and Michael's job. Xena with that evil spot in her heart knows a kindred spirit when she sees one. "When Lucifer says "Heroism comes with a price, Xena", she answers, "It also brings unexpected rewards. Just like it brought you to me." Lucifer is very confused and says, "You say that like its a good thing". Well, for her it is. A perfect substitute for a nasty destiny has been delivered unto her. Or, as Xena says, "Do I have an eye for talent?"" I love Mendoza's reading of that line - there's that little vacant look in his eye that you see when someone is really just in over their head. Suddenly you know that Lucifer is just plain clueless. T "She planned, strategized and barely kept control over her actions, while fighting a huge internal battle with her corrupted heart. Evil consumed her and distracted her and could well have cost her her soul had she given in to it and forgot her real self and her plans. Even Eve looks into her heart and believes Xena is totally gone, totally subsumed by evil. Yes I agree Xena is being consumed by evil and she just barely hanging on to her goodness. I think she finds the evil in her heart vert attractive and you see that when she is talking to Gabby after the coat scene. For a moment there Xena is planning her future at the Queen of Evil. She is then gets a hold of herself possibly when Lucigfer so readily agrees to kill Eve. Xena would never in cold blood kill someone she loves. So she could never cross that line and it is that line that anchors her humanity. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:20:16 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: To have bean or not to have bean On Friday 24 January 2003 22:24, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/03 3:00:37 AM Central Standard Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << So my understanding of the character makes me believe that if > she was going to off herself, she would have just done it with no > theatrics or special set-ups. Just "Grunt" and it's done.>> > > Yes, you certainly give good reasons for that view. As I've said before, I > tend not to get enmeshed in the psychological goings-on. I thought the > burying of weapons was dramatic -- not to mention a better set-up for a > series than having the main character off herself in the first few minutes. Of course, that would have been a good precedent for the rest of the series, most of whose major characters ended up dead at least once ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:17:20 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Friday 24 January 2003 22:24, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/03 4:33:09 AM Central Standard Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << > > Others we didn't see. Ooooooooooooo,>> > > > > Sure, why not? Reformed Xena and that guy in Chariots might've go it > > > on while his three kids were asleep. > > > > ARGH! ARGH! WHY didn't she? ARGH ARGH ARGH.>> > > > > That's my point. Who's to say she didn't? > > Because in the show it was fairly clear that she didn't. The show is > sacrosanct. Anything goes in fanfic. But what we see is in the show is > what was. Per. ee. ohd.>> In principle, I agree with KT. What's on screen (or specifically stated in dialogue) is it, and all of it. Anything else is speculation. > Admittedly, they didn't have much opportunity. But couldn't they have had > a "quickie" before she put on her battle dress for that meeting? I happen > to agree with you. I'm just saying I'm not sure it could be ruled out > entirely. Plus, I like making you growl. I agree there, it's a nice thought. (And it annoys KT, which is a plus :) I also like to think Auto and Xena got it on in Royal Couple of Thieves, there was a moment when it looked as if they were possibly working up to it, and besides, Auto was quite a presentable guy and my male instincts say that after he put in all that effort, he was entitled to a reward. Xena might have enjoyed it too. ;) > I do have it both ways. But only in extrapolation. What's on the screen > is separate from what was never on the screen.>> > > I'd like to agree with you on that, but I can't. Partly it's because we > all "see" different things. Partly it's because it's impossible to show > everything, intended or not. I didn't see Xena have sex with Marcus or > Ulysses, but what I did see strongly suggested it. I never saw the moment > in the Herc trilogy when Xena suddenly decided to turn from her evil ways, > yet I believed her when she said that to Herc (even tho her actions up to > that point showed her clearly capable of duplicitousness and betrayal.) I do agree with KT on that. What's on screen is all there is (as I said above). Even if we do read different things into it. There has to be a line somewhere, even if it's slightly blurred as such lines always are. > < Xena had a number of interested moments, but only with people whom she > respected. And passed up on physically consumating the relationship with a > few of them. Why she passed them up is the puzzlement. That I still think > has to do with a reluctance to allow herself to enjoy life too much, being > the bad (and mad and sad) girl that she is.>> > > LOL! You and guilt. We'll have to agree to disagree on that, as I still > think it was more a question of timing or priorities, than penance. It's probably KT's Catholic upbringing. Just as well she's not a Freudian as well ;-) > > That Gabrielle cannot be a pacifist and continue to travel with > > Xena.>> > > > > Ah. I agree she had her doubts, but if not for the vision, I think she > > was committed to making it work. What did she say at the end of > > Convert? Something about Gabs not having to worry about that, as long as > > she had > > Xena. > > > But this is hypocrisy of the highest order. I don't kill because I'm a > pacifist, but if you hurt or kill me, my soulmate there will kill you > back. I don't kill, but I will exhort my Amazons to kill with no qualms > nor hesitation. It was hopeless for Gabrielle to try to be a true pacifist > and still stay with Xena the reforming Warrior Princess.>> That, to me, stuck out a mile. Gabby was using Xena to protect her, without giving Xena any help at all? And implicitly condemning Xena for doing so. That was just bad, bad, bad, and if I was a Gabfan I'd still think the same about that. > Yes, Gabrielle was in an untenable position. However, I was more inclined > to see hypocrisy before Gabrielle killed Meridian. It was easier for her to > eschew "taking a life" until confronted with the reality. After, I saw > someone desperately trying to balance her own ideals (with full knowledge > of her own capacity to kill) with the love/responsibility she felt toward > Xena and the Amazons. And, don't forget, it's Xena who tells Gabs not to > worry, as long as she's with Xena. They both knew and accepted the price > of being together. > > -- Ife I think that was a rationalisation on Xena's part. Or maybe protectiveness. But then, when Xena demonstrates the same protectiveness in Gurkhan, Gabfans criticise her for it! :( I think, right from the very first episode up until Gabs went berserk in Ides, there was a conflict between what Gabs believed or professed to believe - - i.e. non-violence - and her actions in tagging along with Xena. In other words, the whole first four seasons. It was just brought into greater prominence by the 'Way of Peace' thing. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 03:57:11 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] SPOILERS FOR HOA AND HOD AND IOM Random comments..... it's always fun reading a KT post. On Friday 24 January 2003 08:44, KTL wrote: > Spoilers for HOA, HOD, IOM > > % > $ > & > * > @ > # > % > ! > + > % > $ > & > > > > > Heart of Darkness is an excellent episode. (snip) > This ep has many traces of prior arcs and antecedents fueling its > story. Many different gods have been jerking Xena and her family around > for a long, long time. It must have been Mephistopheles, king of hell, who > sent Callisto out to woo Xena's soul two seasons and 27 years ago. He's > been after her soul for a LONG time. Oh, nicely spotted. Yes, you're right. Nice bit of continuity there, btw. > Last week's (in America) ep, HOA, laid out Xena's latest god driven > grief. Now the only film genre I hate more than the T&A Action Adventure > Genre is the Horror Genre. So the first time I watched HOA, I'm all, > "Phhhffft.". I noticed the fact that all the cliches were there and were > well done, but so what? I hate what they did to Cyrene, HATE it! When > X&G were melded together it just looked goofy to me, neither scary nor > intentionally amusing--I felt it was just done for, "Look Ma, what I > can do with my computer!" I - usually - hate horror movies. Only ones I like are the Dr Phibes ones with Vincent Price (which are horror-comedy anyway), because they're so stylish. But I did quite like Haunting of Amphipolis, simply because all the cliches were, as you say, well done. I guess RT said 'let's make a horror movie', just as they decided in the previous season to do a western. > Later Xena explains to Gabrielle, "For years my mother fought the evil > spirits here-they drove her mad. Gabrielle asks, "Xena, why would he > attack your family? He has an entire world he can rule." And Eve > explains, "He's preparing for war. It's no accident I'm in this house." Whoops! I think I was arguing that in an earlier post, I'd completely forgotten that Xena said just that, explicitly. > The opening dialogue of the angels, agents of just one of the gods > manipulating Xena for their own purposes, sets out both the plan against > Xena and the impetus for Lucifer's involvement. > > (Gods, I LOATH Michael's "acting" voice. And where the hell did he get > the punk cut and blond dye job?) I think Michael and his voice were perfectly cast. Not that I like his character, I cheered when Xena tried to drown him in The God You Know. But his voice I thought perfectly matched his character. Patrician, and very conscious of his position. Pompous ass in other words. > When Lucifer beams down a few seconds later, Gabrielle asks him: "Why are > you here?" > > And he answers, "To do what Eve in her heart knows must be done. Since > we're both on the same side, I felt that she at least deserved the > courtesy of a quick goodbye." Notice that when he claims they are both on > the same side, Gabrielle looks at Eve who shakes her head in thoughtful > and hesitant negation. Nice touch that. Did Evie just disagree with sending Momma to hell, or did she sense that Lucifer was a rotten apple? > In the next scene, Xena and Lucifer meet and Lucifer immediately tries to > kill her and/or toss her into the pit of hell. She overcomes him but Eve > stops her mother from killing him. Lucifer says, "Well, well, it seems > you've got quite a dilemma here Xena. Because you know if you don't kill > me now, I'll try (to kill you) again." Xena answers with a maniacal grin, > "I'm counting on it." Her plan spins into being. And the game is afoot. Arrgh! Lines I wish they wouldn't repeat so often. "I'm counting on it" is No 1 on the list. > Now I am totally baffled by the interpretation of some people that Xena > tempted and corrupted an "innocent bystander". Lucifer butted in to a > extraordinarily complicated, complex and tangled web of numerous god's > ambitions, wars and years long traditions of screwing with Xena. That was Ares, and he never quite managed it, much though he would have liked to ;) (OK, I know, different meaning of the word....) > He > volunteered without being asked to, to come down to earth of his own free > will, planning to condemn Xena's soul to eternal torment and fulfill > Mephistopheles' defined "destiny" for her. He chose to be part of the plan > to punish her for being in the situation she was in when it was due to his > boss and other god's machinations that she was in it. A number of > pantheons had worked in various and mysterious ways to set her up and > bring her to this point. Gah! No way was Lucifer innocent. He was ambitious, he volunteered for the job as another step on his career path, and he never for one moment seemed to feel any regrets about what he was proposing to do to an innocent woman. (In this context Xena was innocent, in killing Mephistopheles she was acting in self-defence in all senses). Oh, I see you said that already. OK, 'me too'. ;) It's like the Roman soldiers Xena killed (or Khan's 100,000 troops in Back in the Bottle) - they volunteered to go and kill people, their risk if someone killed them. > Xena immediately recognizes Lucifer for what he is the minute he > arrives. He inserts himself in her sights. And why was Lucifer so hot to > send Xena to hell? To make brownie points at work. He was going to send > her to hell to advance his career, to worm his way up the corporate > ladder. (Screwtape Letters, anyone?) Xena needs a replacement to take > her place in hell. And this calculating guy who wants to manipulate her > situation for his own purposes suddenly lands in her back yard. How > appropriate to use the one who wants to use her. This was no innocent she > tempted--this was a raging flawed egomaniac whose prideful arrogance she > turned upon himself and used to flame himself out. Oh I love the way you put it, KT. > She planned, strategized and barely kept control over her actions, while > fighting a huge internal battle with her corrupted heart. Evil consumed > her and distracted her and could well have cost her her soul had she given > in to it and forgot her real self and her plans. Even Eve looks > into her heart and believes Xena is totally gone, totally subsumed by > evil. I think Xena's long career as a villain had given her so much practice in controlling herself (or 'staying focussed' as she would anachronistically put it) that she could keep control even around the mouth of Hell. Whereas Lucifer, whatever dirty deeds he might have done in his angelic career, was just an amateur in the 'evil past' stakes. Xena was the seasoned old professional. (Why anachronistic? Because they didn't, I believe, have much in the way of lenses then, notwithstanding the seer and his telescope in Orphan of War, so 'focus' was probably not a word). > At the end Lucifer howls, "You TRICKED me!" I laughed at that line. And Xena's reply - > And Xena answers, "You tried > to kill me--what did you expect?" Precisely! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #24 *************************************