From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #23 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, January 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 023 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] SPOILERS FOR HOA AND HOD AND IOM [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:37:34 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> With respectful snippage. On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > There are some interesting ideas here. It does seem odd that hell hole > should open up in Xena's backyard. Now all this happened while Xena was in > the deep freeze and I don't quite know how Michael could manipulate Meph but > it ceratinly was fortutous that Xena appeared when she did. > > I wonder how much Michael knew about events on earth. Did he know Xena was > frozen and was he just wainting for her to defrost so he give her the power > to kill gods. Xena says that the spirit who came to her on the beach said that Michael had sent her/him. Can we believe anything any of these gods/angels/ spirits say? The whole snarled thread of gods and pantheons messing with Xena is just really hard to work through. It seems like every time you turn around, yet another deity is gunning for the WP and her family and loved ones. I wrote a couple of posts about HOD, which is one of my favorite ever eps and talked about this when it first aired. I don't remember if I was back on Chakram then or not and so don't know if I posted them here or not. Since I loved this ep so much, I would like to post these to throw them into the gods-fueled bubbling pots and plots. My apologies if I've posted these here before. Did he convince Callisto to impregnate Xena so she would give > birth to the messanger and therefore be forced to become the god slayer? > Why didn't the angels watch out for Eve more? they certainly could have > interened a little so wouldn't be evil. Or did her evilness suit their > purposes? Without the guilt would she be so willing to sacrifice her future > to be Eli's messanger? > > > > Hooooo, THAT'S an intriquing thought. > > I wish that a little of Livia would have been incorporated into Eve. Eve > has a tendancy to whine and it would have been much more interesting to have > a strong messanger of Eli than such a whimpy one. Yeah, Eve should have been compelling, charismatic, intriquing but she came off as none of these things. She was one of the biggest disappointments of the series to me. They really blew it with her character. BoorrrrrING... > Oddly enough jealously isn't one of the seven deadly sins, I think it may be > an off shoot of lust. I have to admit I worked really hard to get sloth in > there. I sort of really twisted things a bit to get Lucifer to be slothful. LOL! Well, perhaps just the fact that he lolly-gagged around with Xena, going on picnics, lying down with Big X for a nap, going to orgies, instead of getting right to it and attacking her every time her back was turned so he could toss her down to hell was slothful. Would any but a slothful soul laze around at an orgy so long without getting right down to business? There's your sloth, matey. KT > > CherylA > > > > cr > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:44:03 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] SPOILERS FOR HOA AND HOD AND IOM Spoilers for HOA, HOD, IOM % $ & * @ # % ! + % $ & Heart of Darkness is an excellent episode. We haven't had one like this for a long, long time. I thought Lucy did a great job at showing a woman half crazed from exterior evil pouring into her heart, trying to keep control of herself long enough to save herself and her family and her loved ones. The story was compelling, multi-layered, and addressed some years long threads. And all while being very stylish and mixed with large doses of wit and humor. I really, REALLY liked this one. This ep has many traces of prior arcs and antecedents fueling its story. Many different gods have been jerking Xena and her family around for a long, long time. It must have been Mephistopheles, king of hell, who sent Callisto out to woo Xena's soul two seasons and 27 years ago. He's been after her soul for a LONG time. And three seasons and 28 years ago it was Hope who said when plotting for her god against the WP, "As Xena goes, so goes the world." For most of us, our gods are not literally, physically present in our lives. Most of our lives are not so dramatic that we are aware that we are constantly used as pawns by the gods in their battles for power. But for Xena the gods have always been up close and very, very personal. Somehow, for some reason, Xena is the key in this ongoing war of the gods. A number of dieties are battling to kill each other off and declare supremacy over heaven (Elysian fields) hell (Tartarus) and earth (New Zealand). The gods have worked Xena over for years to set her up and put her in the position she's in. Last week's (in America) ep, HOA, laid out Xena's latest god driven grief. Now the only film genre I hate more than the T&A Action Adventure Genre is the Horror Genre. So the first time I watched HOA, I'm all, "Phhhffft.". I noticed the fact that all the cliches were there and were well done, but so what? I hate what they did to Cyrene, HATE it! When X&G were melded together it just looked goofy to me, neither scary nor intentionally amusing--I felt it was just done for, "Look Ma, what I can do with my computer!" (The first shot of Cyrene's Tavern looked like the Bates Motel to me, so when Gabrielle hit the showers I kept waiting for the screeching music and for the sudden appearance of Toris in a bad wig, wearing Cyrene's dress and brandishing a reaaaaally big knife. But they missed that one.) Anyway, I just re-watched HOA because there is scads of set-up for HOD in there and I wanted to refresh my mind on that. It was much better to me the second time around, but it still seemed loaded with fluff that was just put in to showcase their ability to make horror special effects. Blech. (And on the re-watch, I suddenly noticed that the Little Blond Kid has a new outfit at the end. Strange costume. It looked like one of those 1950's women's bathing suits. Maybe she was getting "ready for my next shower scene, Mr. DeMille.") At any rate, the whole creepiness of what the gods are willing to do and have done to Xena and her family was very well presented in HOA. This is what the angels say at the beginning of HOA: Michael: "Xena is finally coming home to Amphipolis. She has no idea what awaits her." (But they do.) Raphael: "I'm sure concerned about what awaits us if she should fail in her destiny. If the realm of hell should spill out unto the earth, we will be the one to face it." M: "Xena has killed most of the Olympian gods. She's the only mortal prepared to face this." (They've given her the chance to get experience in this.) R: "I hope she is prepared for all of our sakes." Again, they are certainly aware that Xena is on some track with enormous potential to effect the physical and spiritual world. Their boss of course is one of the ones who have pushed her to this point. It was their boss who brought Xena back from the dead and who made Xena the Mother of the Messenger. Michael was there when Eve was begun. Later in the ep, Eve says, "There's a stillness. It's like before a battle. It's as if I can feel the realms of heaven and hell taking sides." Grrl's got vision. Later Xena explains to Gabrielle, "For years my mother fought the evil spirits here-they drove her mad. Gabrielle asks, "Xena, why would he attack your family? He has an entire world he can rule." And Eve explains, "He's preparing for war. It's no accident I'm in this house." Xena swears on Cyrene's charred remains, "Wherever you are, I will find you. I'll make it right. I'll make this right." Still later Xena talks to Mephistopheles in Gabrielle. "Why have you come here?" Meph/Gab says, "You killed the Olympian gods Xena. The time has come for my reign to begin. I shall inherit the earth. When (Eve's) blood is spilled, I'll be made flesh". Again, very specifically, he needs Xena's daughter to rescue him from hell and he is tormenting Xena's mother to make her do so. Later he says about Cyrene, "I hold the key to her soul Xena. She'll spend eternity reliving only agony you put into her life". And then about Eve, "She's dying, Xena. The battle you have her fighting is one she cannot win. It will cost her life and I will be the victor. Her soul will belong to me. It's not your daughter's life that I seek, only her blood. Just a few drops of blood spilled in my name, only a few drops will bring me into the world. Fight me there or your daughter will join your mother in eternal torture". These are battles between families, between dynasties, between generations. They have messed not only with Xena herself but also with Xena's mother and daughter and son. Then we get the second half of this part of the saga, HOD. The opening dialogue of the angels, agents of just one of the gods manipulating Xena for their own purposes, sets out both the plan against Xena and the impetus for Lucifer's involvement. (Gods, I LOATH Michael's "acting" voice. And where the hell did he get the punk cut and blond dye job?) M: "Xena will never go down to hell voluntarily." R: "When she opened up that portal and killed Mephistopheles, she became him. You know the rules-she belongs on that throne." M: "The last time Xena was in hell, she almost captured heaven. R: "But we've got to do something-we can't just leave her on earth with pure evil streaming out of that portal". Lucifer: "Aren't you two inspiring? Michael and Rafael, chief warrior angels of the chief himself quaking like a couple of frightened children." M: "You're very sure of yourself aren't you? L: "I'm sure of both my faith and my devotion. Which has fueled my speedy ascent up the hierarchy. A climb that will continue with a promotion to seraphim. M: "And how do you plan to achieve that?" L: "By throwing Xena down into hell myself." M: "You realize Xena has the power to destroy angels." L: "She will use that power unless I send her to hell." M: (With slight pause as he looks up to [higher] heaven, perhaps checking with the boss?) Then, "Very well. Proceed." R: "He just may be the right one for the job." M: "He may be perfect." Meanwhile, back down on earth, Eve says to Gabrielle: "A great evil is coming Gabrielle. I can feel it." And Gabrielle answers, "Maybe that's because you're standing near the portal of hell." Well ha ha, funny line. But gee, maybe it's NOT that. Maybe it's because Lucifer is on his way. When Lucifer beams down a few seconds later, Gabrielle asks him: "Why are you here?" And he answers, "To do what Eve in her heart knows must be done. Since we're both on the same side, I felt that she at least deserved the courtesy of a quick goodbye." Notice that when he claims they are both on the same side, Gabrielle looks at Eve who shakes her head in thoughtful and hesitant negation. In the next scene, Xena and Lucifer meet and Lucifer immediately tries to kill her and/or toss her into the pit of hell. She overcomes him but Eve stops her mother from killing him. Lucifer says, "Well, well, it seems you've got quite a dilemma here Xena. Because you know if you don't kill me now, I'll try (to kill you) again." Xena answers with a maniacal grin, "I'm counting on it." Her plan spins into being. And the game is afoot. Now I am totally baffled by the interpretation of some people that Xena tempted and corrupted an "innocent bystander". Lucifer butted in to a extraordinarily complicated, complex and tangled web of numerous god's ambitions, wars and years long traditions of screwing with Xena. He volunteered without being asked to, to come down to earth of his own free will, planning to condemn Xena's soul to eternal torment and fulfill Mephistopheles' defined "destiny" for her. He chose to be part of the plan to punish her for being in the situation she was in when it was due to his boss and other god's machinations that she was in it. A number of pantheons had worked in various and mysterious ways to set her up and bring her to this point. Michael's boss and his fellow gods have been jerking Xena and her family around for decades now. Eve's entire existence appears to be due to the need for a pawn in their game. But what they all forgot is that her mom is the queen of strategy. Xena immediately recognizes Lucifer for what he is the minute he arrives. He inserts himself in her sights. And why was Lucifer so hot to send Xena to hell? To make brownie points at work. He was going to send her to hell to advance his career, to worm his way up the corporate ladder. (Screwtape Letters, anyone?) Xena needs a replacement to take her place in hell. And this calculating guy who wants to manipulate her situation for his own purposes suddenly lands in her back yard. How appropriate to use the one who wants to use her. This was no innocent she tempted--this was a raging flawed egomaniac whose prideful arrogance she turned upon himself and used to flame himself out. When Lucifer says "Heroism comes with a price, Xena", she answers, "It also brings unexpected rewards. Just like it brought you to me." Lucifer is very confused and says, "You say that like its a good thing". Well, for her it is. A perfect substitute for a nasty destiny has been delivered unto her. Or, as Xena says, "Do I have an eye for talent?" Xena has always fought against and often destroyed those who would threaten her or her loved ones. She has foiled the plots and manipulations of Mephistopheles and Callisto, Zeus and his children, Dahak and Hope, Indrajit, Aiden, that big ol' monster dog of Darfus' and numerous other folks she's run into who have wished harm upon the Warrior Princess and those whom she loves. And there is no substantial difference between her fighting and vanquishing them and her fighting and foiling the harmful agenda of Michael's boss and his minions. As always she will do whatever it takes to protect herself and her loved ones. She planned, strategized and barely kept control over her actions, while fighting a huge internal battle with her corrupted heart. Evil consumed her and distracted her and could well have cost her her soul had she given in to it and forgot her real self and her plans. Even Eve looks into her heart and believes Xena is totally gone, totally subsumed by evil. But no. She's still there, barely hanging on to her humanity. Xena withstood those tendrils of seduction which that outward evil twined around her heart and soul. She stood firm against the pull to fall fully into the black hole in her heart. (I imagine she may have realized what life would be like for all planes of existance had she become the queen of hell.) She perservers. She saves herself, her family, her loved ones, the whole town, even the whole earth, by locating an already corrupted soul to become the new leader of hell, tossing him in there and closing the open wound of the fount of evil. WITHOUT sacrificing herself on the altar of the various gods who mess with her. At the end Lucifer howls, "You TRICKED me!" And Xena answers, "You tried to kill me--what did you expect?" And as he fell spinning down that pit into hell, my partner said to me, "Damn! She gave him the shaft!" Well of course she did. For Xena will never go gentle into that good night. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:50:52 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Spoilers for HOD, HOA, FURIES, MOTHERHOOD, MB, A&C HOD, HOA, FURIES, MOTHERHOOD, MB, A&C S P A C E S P A C E S P A C E Great gods, I enjoyed watching Lucy at work in Heart of Darkness. I certainly don't agree with those people who think her performance this time was awful. I've read some comments that she was not "acting like Xena". Well, I think she was but it was a hate-crazed, barely controlled, seething with rage Xena. It was the mad Xena of the Furies. (If this is Mad Xena, does that make Gabrielle Aunty Entity?) I think Lucy does a great job at showing an evil Xena who is being forced to be evil for once rather than choosing to be evil. Evil POURED out of that hole and hers was the first heart it claimed. I really liked and responded to her portrayal of a maddened and resisting woman being filled up with and tormented by evil. She knows she has to resist--we all know how she gets when she lets out that little evil inner child Xena. And so does she. One bud said that the portrayal didn't fit until the second half when she went mad. But she was mad from the very beginning. And Lucy set that up right off with her pushing around the little maid girl for touching her horse. She's mean, petty and she fidgets as she messes with Lil' Argo's tack. The Xena we know never fidgets. It is only moments later that Eve looks into her heart and sees the black encroaching corruption inside it. (And how the hell did Gabrielle see that vision of Xena's heart anyway? Did Eve have one of those tiny portable TVs in her shroud? "Hey Gabs--looka Mom's heart"!) In fact, Lucy shows Xena getting the blast of evil rage at the end of HOA--watch how she jerks her head when Mephistopheles disappears and how distracted she is when Gabrielle comes over to her and says, "Xena". Lucy pulses for a minute and then answers in a lovely nasty clipped tone, "What?". And this is the Xena whom we see at the beginning of HOD. Xena was certainly NOT herself. The incredible cost of trying to control herself, of her struggle to not give in totally to evil and thus lose her fight with Lucifer kept breaking through. I think this was what Lucy was portraying--a seething, barely restrained rising evil that Xena had to fight to keep constrained in order to win in this situation. It made her half-crazed, cranky and irrational, barely holding up against the morass of wild and dangerous emotions awash in her corrupted heart. She's half lunatic again. And if she loses control and gives in to the draw of the evil in her heart and accepts her fate to become the queen of hell, the gods win and her family loses. Yet again. Comparing the seduction scene in HOD with others we have been treated to show that this is not the straight forward "Xena loves you and wants to make love with you" woman she portrays in her seduction scene with Marcus in MB, nor "Xena is plotting to seduce you and is flirting her relaxed and lightly lustful but mostly in control butt off" woman of her seduction scene with Antony. This is the "Xena is two-thirds crazed, distracted with her own internal battle and is fighting a huge war within herself to keep herself on track to get you" version. No wonder she's antsy, choppy in her movements and pretty obviously manipulative when she's trying to tease Lucifer into showing his true colors. I LOVED her in the orgy scene. So in control, so coolly hot, so tempting, so sensuous, so able to ignite the room when she needs to. She was mistress of that domain. There wasn't a heartbeat to be felt in my house when she stalked up to the center of the room and began to dance. I enjoyed Virgil. Classic American party boy. I laughed out loud at how he had his mouth all open to enjoy Gabrielle, but like a hound dog on the scent she alerts to Xena beckoning her and trances over to her siren, leaving him fish faced and horny. I got another laugh when Virgil followed Gabrielle but abandoned her the minute he got into Xena's sphere of influence. He did his guppy imitation for Xena too, but Gab pulled him away. She's still on track at least, smiling and having a good old time for herself. I KNEW she had it in her... And we all know that Xena's gonna have some 'splaining to do as to why she leapt up and clamped Lucifer's pelvis between her thighs while dancing with him but would only let Gabrielle touch her neck. Think Gab will buy the "But honey, I was MAD!" defense? Uh-uh. I laughed out loud at the scene when Gabrielle threw the coat at Xena. Loved how Lucy immediately registered the blow, pulling away but keeping her head down, still savoring the kisses, standing there with her happy, roaring lust battling with her irritation and frustration. THEN she finally lifts her head, peers at Gabrielle under lowering eyebrows and drawls, "Yessssssss?" BWAHAHAHAHAHAHH! Beautifully done. While the actor portraying Lucifer wasn't as beautiful as the traditional Paradise Lost concept of Lucifer before his fall, he is a good actor. (Oh MAN, I wish they had hired Mr. Mountie of Due South to play Lucifer. Then I think that during the orgy scene I might have died and gone to ?) This guy did a nice job with the little humorous gestures bits. Like when he's on the ground with Xena's sword at his throat and Eve says, "You can't kill a messenger of God." He does this little hopeful nodding that gave me a grin. I was glad to see that they let Gabrielle get just a bit corrupted also. Renee has certainly cranked her wicked stepmother portrayal up to a high pitch this year. But notice that in the orgy scene, she plays Gabrielle still in control enough to refuse another drink, saying "it would make me drunk. And loose." (I always get a kick at how Renee says those "oooo" sounds. It's like when Lucy tries to say "been" like an American but it always comes out "bean". Both of these pronunciation quirks in the midst of their blanded out middle-American accented acting voices always catch my attention and give me a grin.) I enjoyed the banter between the grrls in this ep tremendously. The scene right after the coat throwing scene was a real kick--Xena doing a great Elvira imitation as she sensually drawls out, "Evil. (Cue lovely 50s b grade flick organ music chordal punctuation). The Dark Side. It's intoxicating, isn't it?" And Gabrielle breaths out, "Oh yeah--it's intoxicating". I don't know anything about Eve Skopov. But she's either a real fan or she REALLY paid attention when the Rs T&J told her about these characters and their relationship. (After having seen the whole season, I think Skopov was the best new writer in season six by far.) Although I didn't enjoy HOA near so much as I enjoyed HOD, I thought Lucy and Renee both did some nice acting bits in HOA. Lucy did such a good job at just lightly hitting the spot while hitting all the cliches. Some marvelous expressions on her face as she absorbed what was happening. The classic "STATEMENT OF THE SCARY HAPPENINGS BY A MINOR CHARACTER SCENE" occurs and as he finishes, she slides her eyes to the side just as the thunder roars. Nice job. She took her character who just happens to be appearing in the horror genre this week as seriously as she takes her character when she appears in a T&A action adventure story. And creates the reactions of a real human being caught up in an over the top moment. Gods help me if Lawless decides to star in a horror show. I'll wind up watching the furken thing for sure. *Sigh* She did pull off one horrendous reading though--when Eve finally blasts the demon out of Gabrielle, Lucy's breathy, squealy reading of "You're back", well that stuck out as very over the top in the WRONG way to me. One of the highlights of the ep for me was Gabrielle licking her bloody hands. EEEEEEUUUUWWWWWWWWW! Anyway, back to HOD. Lucy just appeared to me to be having so much fun with this over the top charicature of her character--a plot-driven, intentionally over the top charicatured portrayal to me. Everybody seemed to be having a good time chewing up the scenary. They were funning, I was laughing. Literally. This ep was so well written and acted, so darkly funny, so over the top in just exactly the right way. Gods, do I LOVE evil Xena! And I totally enjoy watching how Lucy relishes playing that role. KT Lastest repetitive conversation around my house: MH (That stands for "My Honey") "Are you watching that ep AGAIN?" M (That stands for "Me") "No, honey, just the orgy scene." MH "Oh. ...Okay." _____________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a message to majordomo@mlists.com with "unsubscribe xenaverse" in the message body ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:59:53 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] To have bean or not to have bean SNiP > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << I think she was just burying her warrior persona. She intended to start > afresh, drop being a warrior. > > I'm not as sure as KT about Xena's motives in burying her weapons. I've > always liked the ambiguity. To me, she was on the edge between "There's no > amount of bread and cheese I can toss to my former victims that will make up > for what I've done" vs. I'll bury that part of me that symbolizes the evil of > my darkness" vs. "Maybe I can use that 'dark' part of me for good." Well I think the first two certainly apply. I don't think she came around to accepting using her 'dark' part as being valuable or as being useful for good for a long time. In the Price, she's ashamed of using it, feeling guilty and apologetic once the situation is resolved, even though if she hadn't used her warrior skills to take out their chief in mano-o-mano combat, they'd all have died no matter how often they chorused, "Kaltaka!" I don't think that it's until she receives Krishna's blessing over her warrior persona that she totally comes to grips with it as something that can be if not good in itself, something that "just is" and something that she can take the experience from and use for good. Though we see her starting to realize she "needs" her dark side way back in Dreamweaver, it's like a guilty realization, like a somewhat distasteful quirk that, alright, one can utilize, but keep it private, okay? It shouldn't really be displayed in public. Even when M'lila tells her, "Now that you know evil, were evil, you can fight evil", that doesn't seem to help her accept any value in having been evil--she's still ashamed over her past and driven to atone for it. And I would argue very strongly against her intention being to commit suicide in Sins of the Past. Xena is extremely practical in the execution of her missions. (While leaving space to have a little fun sometimes.) If she intended to commit suicide, I think she would simply have impaled herself on her sword or cut her throat with her chakram. How is she going to kill herself after she buries her handy sharp objects? Hang herself with her slip? Tie a bunch of boulders in a net, then tie the net around her ankles and swan dive into a river? Jump over a cliff and being Xena, probably not die and have to make a painful (though stiff-upper-liply- unacknowledged) recovery? Why make things in this situation more complex than they need to be? No, I can't see that if Xena was going to kill herself that she wouldn't just do it with her own weapons. Xena is not at all modest and certainly not fastidious, so she wouldn't give a damn about people finding her body and doing nasty things to it after death, so I don't think that's an argument for not just stabbing herself on the spot either. That wouldn't worry her in the least I don't think. I've always felt that Xena was very proud of her skills, her newly regained honor and integrity (which are also strong arguments against her taking the coward's way out of the situation) but she never, ever worried about indignities to her body. We've seen her in numerous eps where she stands around naked in public in her "wide spread dollie stance" and doesn't bat an eye or have any worry about it -- of course, with a body like that--wait, I'm getting distracted--uh...oh, and as we've seen in many eps, she has absolutely no qualms about putting her body in danger and calmly accepting damage to it as part of the game. And this started way early. From "The Gauntlet": X: I don't run from my problems. I confront them! (editorial note: Exactly.) ....(to Darfus): I'm relieving you of your command! D: My men won't allow that. Yes, MY men. You're the one who's stepping down. And you'll leave the only way a warrior can. X: The gauntlet? There's not a man here who'll raise a hand against me. (Okay, okay so her "reading people" skill is a little off here.) And then of course, although she could have just run away, she does decide to run the gauntlet. Talk about her accepting that others may subject her body to damage and disrespect. Note: Xena getting up off the floor after running the gauntlet is a scene that literally made my hair stand on end the first time I saw it. It was sooooo glorious! So my understanding of the character makes me believe that if she was going to off herself, she would have just done it with no theatrics or special set-ups. Just "Grunt" and it's done. Lucy's > nearly expressionless portrayal allowed for any number of interpretations, > which I feel is realistic, given that Xena may not have thought much beyond > burying her "old" self. Even if she'd planned to go home all along, it was > her encounter with Gabrielle that seemed to give Xena the courage to face her > kinfolk bearing the "sins" and trappings of her "old" self. Hmmm. I don't see that that Gabrielle had anything to do with this at all. Xena saunters off and leaves her. And goes to Draco to try to disuade him from attacking Poteidea again. And they have that little conversation about the pros and cons of going home, with Draco telling her how his father almost beat him to death with a hammer when he tried to go home. I think Xena intended from the first to go home and apologize to Cyrene. And she had intended to request forgiveness as Cyrene's daughter, not as the Warrior Princess. AND I think that had Gabrielle not intervened with the village people as she did when they were stoning Xena, then Xena would probably have snapped, killed them all and gone riding merrily back to tartarus on a handmaiden. KT > > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:18:59 +0000 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] To have bean or not to have bean At 23:59 23/01/2003 -0900, KTL wrote: >SNiP >I think Xena intended from the first to go home and apologize to Cyrene. >And she had intended to request forgiveness as Cyrene's daughter, not >as the Warrior Princess. > >AND I think that had Gabrielle not intervened with the village people as >she did when they were stoning Xena, then Xena would probably have >snapped, killed them all and gone riding merrily back to tartarus on a >handmaiden. Ya think? What do you think was her plan after saying sorry to mommy dearest? Was she off to find some new, and noble, line of work? Drink herself to death in a corner of the inn? Find a nice boy, get married and settle down? (Oooooh COW) Take a pilgrimage and beg for forgiveness from other victims? (ooooh Forgiven) Sojourner PS what's this with you and beans anyway? ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 00:42:28 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] To have bean or not to have bean > >SNiP > > > >I think Xena intended from the first to go home and apologize to Cyrene. > >And she had intended to request forgiveness as Cyrene's daughter, not > >as the Warrior Princess. > > > >AND I think that had Gabrielle not intervened with the village people as > >she did when they were stoning Xena, then Xena would probably have > >snapped, killed them all and gone riding merrily back to tartarus on a > >handmaiden. > > > Ya think? What do you think was her plan after saying sorry to mommy > dearest? Now you sound like Gabrielle. "What's the pla(i)n?" How the hell do I know what the plan is? Do I look like Xena? (don't answer that publicly.) Was she off to find some new, and noble, line of work? Drink > herself to death in a corner of the inn? Find a nice boy, get married and > settle down? (Oooooh COW) Take a pilgrimage and beg for forgiveness from > other victims? (ooooh Forgiven) > Hey--there ya go--the series was all about the things Xena did NOT do. Actually, I think she meant to do good but not through killing others. Sooooo...coulda been a school crossing guard. Or even better-- an exotic dancer. Xena could have been anything she wanted to be. But with Rob believing that every story needs a fight, she just happened to pick her weapons back up and forgot about burying them. Until the next time that she believed once again that Xena the Warrior's work was over and it was time for her to retire from the field. And that time (due to the events of the six years between the two burying escapades), she made it stick. > Sojourner > > PS what's this with you and beans anyway? > > I'm in Texas. They eat lots of beans here. And that explains a lot about Texas. Hey--I JUST discovered while tootling around the Xenaica that Reckless included the following entry: Bean Counters (bean'/bin') Am. (bean'/bean') N.Z. (1) Accountants (sl). (2) Irritating American fans who keep count of the linguistic "beans" on Xena. "Bean" (when used as the pp of "be") is a sure-fire signal that an actor is Kiwi, not American. The Bean/Been accent is a giveaway. Some actors have mastered the middle American accent so well, it's difficult for even an American to tell if the actor is Kiwi (or of British Commonwealth origin) or American. However, even the best British Commonwealth actors appear to have difficulty mastering this American pronunciation. E.g. Xena: "Gabrielle think! Everything about this world has 'bean' a Torment. We've 'bin' guided through it for a reason." KT beans, beans, beans, beans... ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:57:53 +0000 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] To have bean or not to have bean At 00:42 24/01/2003 -0900, KTL wrote: > > > > PS what's this with you and beans anyway? > > > > > >I'm in Texas. They eat lots of beans here. And that explains a lot about >Texas. > >Hey--I JUST discovered while tootling around the Xenaica that Reckless >included the following entry: > >Bean Counters >(bean'/bin') Am. (bean'/bean') N.Z. (1) Accountants (sl). (2) Irritating >American fans who keep count of the linguistic "beans" on Xena. "Bean" >(when used as the pp of "be") is a sure-fire signal that an actor is Kiwi, >not American. The Bean/Been accent is a giveaway. Some actors have >mastered the middle American accent so well, it's difficult for even an >American to tell if the actor is Kiwi (or of British Commonwealth origin) >or American. However, even the best British Commonwealth actors appear to >have difficulty mastering this American pronunciation. E.g. Xena: >"Gabrielle think! Everything about this world has 'bean' a Torment. We've >'bin' guided through it for a reason." > > >KT "Been, in America, almost always is bin; bean never appears save as a conscious affectation. But in England bean is invariably heard, and in a recent poem an English poet makes it rhyme with submarine, queen and unseen. 28" Chapter 7. The Standard American Pronunciation. 2. The Vowels. Mencken, H.L. 1921. http://www.bartleby.com/185/30.html I enjoyed (Mr? Ms?) Mencken's ideas - until I read this... "Unluckily, Krapp finds it extremely difficult, like all other phonologists, to represent the sounds that he deals with by symbols. He uses, for example, exactly the same symbol to indicate the a-sound in cab and the a-sound in bad, though the fact that they differ very greatly must be obvious to everyone." Well, I agree with Krapp - bad and sad have the same a sound to me! Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:32:53 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena > << You know what--I just give up. Xena's motivation, interest and > involvment in sexual relationships is just too HARD to tease out, too > complex to define, too ambiguously presented to really figure out. > > I just give up.>> > > LOL! Exactly! "Come to the Twi-Light/Dawn of Ambiguity. It will set you > free." Yes, it often has. Free to be, you and me. > > Others we didn't see. Ooooooooooooo,>> > > > > Sure, why not? Reformed Xena and that guy in Chariots might've go it on > > while his three kids were asleep. > > > ARGH! ARGH! WHY didn't she? ARGH ARGH ARGH.>> > > That's my point. Who's to say she didn't? Because in the show it was fairly clear that she didn't. The show is sacrosanct. Anything goes in fanfic. But what we see is in the show is what was. Per. ee. ohd. > > <> > > That's also my point. You don't have to give up. Accept the ambiguity and > you can have it both ways. > I do have it both ways. But only in extrapolation. What's on the screen is separate from what was never on the screen. And on screen reforming Xena had a number of interested moments, but only with people whom she respected. And passed up on physically consumating the relationship with a few of them. Why she passed them up is the puzzlement. That I still think has to do with a reluctance to allow herself to enjoy life too much, being the bad (and mad and sad) girl that she is. > That Gabrielle cannot be a pacifist and continue to travel with Xena.>> > > Ah. I agree she had her doubts, but if not for the vision, I think she was > committed to making it work. What did she say at the end of Convert? > Something about Gabs not having to worry about that, as long as she had Xena. > But this is hypocrisy of the highest order. I don't kill because I'm a pacifist, but if you hurt or kill me, my soulmate there will kill you back. I don't kill, but I will exhort my Amazons to kill with no qualms nor hesitation. It was hopeless for Gabrielle to try to be a true pacifist and still stay with Xena the reforming Warrior Princess. > Were they really or was Callisto always part of the plan?>> > > Whose plan? Her "master's" (presumably Satan)? AKA Mephistopheles. I don't think so. There was > a certain logical ethics to his instructions to entice Xena with her own > guilt or desires (similarly to how Xena let Lucifer trap himself). Her > "master" needed Xena to come to him willingly, in order to claim victory. Because Eve wasn't around yet, so he couldn't free himself with her blood, I guess. > True, restoring Gabs and Xena ultimately helped Michael & Co. Maybe they > were observing, but I didn't see where they had any prior involvement. > I believe "The lord thy god is a jealous god, thou shalt have no other gods before me" and that they wanted to use Xena to sweep the heavens clean of a few competing pantheons for them. Or at least, that's what they DID use her for. I suspect they may have had her in their sights at least since the days Dahok also noticed her and came after her to use her in his own cause or to at least get her out of the way so he could implement his plan. > To me, that's why they *earned* a second chance to live on as > > they had faith in themselves to do. > > > > -- Ife > > > Hmmmmm. But it was good Callisto who brought them back. If she hadn't been > sent to hell again, become a demon warrior, been saved by Xena then she > wouldn't have had the power to restore X&G. Coincidence? Or master > planning? Or a hangover while dreaming up Fallen Angel? > >> > > Methinks the hangover. Again, I love that it was Callisto's > unquenchable hatred of Xena that made her hurl that chakram, even at the risk > of offending her new "master." Whatever hopes any hellish or heavenly body > might've had, I think it was Cally's own nature and decision to deny Xena > victory. Oh yes, I agree absolutely. You use a loose cannon, don't be surprised when a cannon ball drops down on your tootsies. It was Xena's choice to save Cally, even at the risk of losing the > peace offered to her. Yes again. We saw a lot of temptations and godly interference, > but the way that was portrayed always said to me that individuals still had > the choice to say "yea" or "nay." So, if there was some "master plan" > (destiny, fate) for X&G, it depended on their will for implementation. > > -- Ife Exactly--as Xena proved when she DIDN'T wind up taking over Mephistopheles' throne as she was "destined" to do. Free will, screw pre-destination. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #23 *************************************