From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #22 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, January 24 2003 Volume 03 : Number 022 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Whose Gurkhan? [cr ] [chakram-refugees] RE: Who's Gurkhan ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:26:12 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 20 January 2003 22:46, Ann Reddecliffe wrote: > > This episode felt like there was someting missing from it. The title > suggests that the identity mystery would be the central issue of the plot, > but it proved to be almost an irrelevance. Interesting point, and quite valid. The whole reason, IIRC, for Xena having to infiltrate the palace, was because Gurky was impossible to identify and assassinate. And then the mystery all sort of quietly evaporated. > >> The third scene, which is very impressive, is Xena's > > torture. Her beating is perhaps the most brutal scene of the series or > perhaps in any TV series with a PG rating. >> > > I am sure the fight in The WAy when Xena lost het arms was worse. The > shocking nature of the beating in Who's G was the lenght of it. In The Way > it was the intense savagery. Cutting off arms, hands and heads. (Come to > think of it, was The Way a PG?) > > Ann The Way, though it made me queasy for a moment, was a fight. Xena wasn't a captive and she never grovelled to Indrajit. I found Gurkhan much worse. The other fight I contrast with The Way was Between the Lines. Unlike The Way, that's a fight I like to watch, even though Alti completely wiped the floor with Xena. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:25:57 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 20 January 2003 00:40, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > Xena's plans are destroyed when Gabrielle shows up and her tussle with > Gabrielle gets her a beating and it many ways it is her own fault. Xena > knows the power of vengeance indeed she has just experienced it herself in > Amphipolis. Xena risked being sent to hell in order to avenge her mother > and protect her daughter. Why should she have expected any less from > Gabrielle? Gabrielle has a righ to seek vengeance and Xena had no right to > take that choice from her. This does not mean Xena simply had to stand > aside and let Gabrielle get killed or become a murder. What it does means > is that that a cleave woman like Xena could have found a way to accomplish > Gabrielle's goals with a plan that gave Gabrielle a role in the action. > Gabrielle didn't need an assassin - she needed to be the one who got > justice for her family. She needed that for her own peace of mind and Xena > should have recognized that. With respect (as they say when they're about to launch into a rant :) - I think you're asking too much. Way too much. Either Gabby has the exclusive right to take revenge - as you say - and kill Gurkhan - which, given the opportunity, she found she couldn't do - or she didn't have the right, in which case Xena should have done it for her. Which Xena was about to do, quite competently, until Gabby decided to take a hand. Incidentally, considering that Gurkhan has probably killed a lot of other people's families too, what gives Gabby exclusive hunting rights? I'd say Xena would be quite justified in killing him on general principles. But then as you know I think the whole thing is a mess. If Xena had done what you suggest and come up with some incredibly ingenious plan that allowed Gabby to take part in it without actually doing it herself (and always assuming Gabby got it right ;) - what difference would that make? If you regard killing Gurkhan as murder (in the circumstances I don't), then giving Gabby any meaningful part in it makes her an accessory and both morally and legally just as guilty as if she'd done it herself. There is NO logical way in which Gabby could play a significant part in killing Gurkhan (thus getting 'justice' for her family) without being guilty of killing Gurkhan. Either she does it or she doesn't. And as it happened, she was an accessory (eventually) to arranging Gurky's death anyway, so she's just as 'guilty' in the end. Incidentally, though it's beside the point, I just can't see the point of preventing Gabby from killing Gurkhan. She was an accessory - in fact *the* major player - in killing Crassus, in When in Rome, and she had rather more justification for wanting Gurkhan dead. As a strictly practical matter, of course, the more complicated a plan is the more chances for something to go wrong - which is in itself plenty of justification for Xena to want to keep Gabby out of it. In any case, Xena *knew* Gabby couldn't do it - which Gabby demonstrated when she had the chance. Xena *knew* Gabby would get herself killed - which, again, Gabby was about to do till Xena took the flak instead. You're blaming Xena for being right? Pah! OK, so IMO Xena should have either washed her hands of the whole deal, sailed off and left Gabby to it, or else slipped her enough of a mickey finn to keep her out of it for a month. Her failure to do either of those was, I admit, her fault. ;-) All IMO, of course :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:35:47 +0000 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Whose Gurkhan? On Wednesday 22 January 2003 23:34, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Lillie wrote: > > "Actually, the most touching scene in the episode for me was when Gabrielle > was trying to convince Sarah that she was her aunt, and wasn't there to > chop her head off...the heart-rendering scene when she put her arms around > Sarah and Sarah tried to push her and the love away. I've seen things like > this. Where we try to believe we don't, under any circumstance deserve > love. " > > Yes that is a terrific scene. Michael Hurst did a wonderful job of > directing and Tandi Wright is very good. Not only does Sarah's almost > frantic struggle with Gabrielle ring true, then when she breaks down and > tells her tale, she can't bring herself to meet her aunt's eyes. Her shame > is palatable. Also look at Xena's reaction, she also is touched by Sarah's > plight. It is a sad fact that people who are subject to abuse, especially > sexual abuse, are often afflicted by great shame over something they had no > control over. Sarah has been in the harem for 8 years so she has been > there since she was probably 11 or 12 so she was abused as a child, saw her > family murdered, and had to placate a sadist for most of her life no wonder > she was a bit testy. > > CherylA Oh dear, I'm going to be a heartless bastard here and say "What's all this making excuses for bad behaviour?" Sarah was thoroughly obnoxious and I was waiting all episode to see her get the smacking she deserved. Then she turns out to be Gabby's long-lost sister or whatever and so immune. Grrrrr. Xena gets viciously beaten by Gurky and grovels to him, and then *doesn't* get to kill him personally which is the only thing would've made me feel better about that scene. Gabby gets the chance and bottles out, just does a "I hate you" tantrum that I'm sure impressed Gurky no end. I did not find this episode satisfying. :) I expect it had lots of subtexty moments though. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:08:36 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Who's Gurkhan - -------Original Message------- From: cr "Oh dear, I'm going to be a heartless bastard here and say "What's all this making excuses for bad behavior?" Sarah was thoroughly obnoxious and I was waiting all episode to see her get the smacking she deserved. Then she turns out to be Gabby's long-lost sister or whatever and so immune. Grrrrr." Well maybe she did get the stuffing knocked out of her. There was a fight scene between Gabby and someone we never saw. I wasn't making an excuse for bad behavior, I was saying that her behavior can be explained by what she went through - that's not excusing anything. Everyone reacts differently to trauma - someone else in her position might have been a better person or someone else might have just committed suicide. She coped by trying to survive by becoming like those around her, not unreasonable reaction for an adolescent. The Xenaverse is filled with people who cope with tragedy in much more nasty ways than becoming a bitch - Xena tried to rule the world and killed anyone who stood in her way, Callisto was a homicidal maniac, and Eve, whatever her problem was , wanted to both rule the world and be a homicidal maniac. Now Xena gets to be a hero, Eve the apostle of love, and Callisto an angel but Sarah must be have the crap kicked out of her because she was a bitch and kicked Xena in the nose. Seems that Sarah deserves to be forgiven as much as anybody else in the series - she was kidnapped, raped, and had her family murdered, seems by the standards of the series she should have the blood of thousands on her hands by now. "Xena gets viciously beaten by Gurky and grovels to him, and then *doesn't* get to kill him personally which is the only thing would've made me feel better about that scene." Been through this but I don't see it as "groveling" more as manipulation. Actually I think Gurkhan's end is appropriate he was a coward and died in a humiliating manner. First he gets seduced and betrayed, then beaten by an irritating blond, and his head loped off while dressed as a woman. "Gabby gets the chance and bottles out, just does a "I hate you" tantrum that I'm sure impressed Gurky no end. " Honestly Gurkhan looked scared witless. I'm sure he never thought that any woman could get the best of him never-the-less beat the crap out of him. "I did not find this episode satisfying. :) I expect it had lots of subtexty moments though." Only one major one really - Xena's hallucination of Gabrielle in the dungeon Cheryl ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #22 *************************************