From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #16 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, January 17 2003 Volume 03 : Number 016 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["H.J.J. Hewitt" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] LL in Lesbian News [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Xena Beauty & Brawn base set [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:29:41 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> >Hmmm... how about 'jealousy'? I figured Xena and Gabs dancing were >calculated to make Lucifer jealous. That could replace sloth. Can't do that, any more than you can substitute Ankor Wat for the Pharos of Alexandria in the 'Seven Wonders of the Ancient World"... it's a set, traditional list, just as sloth is, in the 'Seven Deadly Sins'. (Besides, jealousy seems more likely a form of envy.) TEXena, WELL-adept at sloth ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:48:05 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Wednesday 15 January 2003 07:01, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/14/03 2:12:34 AM Central Standard Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > << Actually, that sentence of KT's - "she only betrays them as > don't want to change for the better" - reminded me of Najara. If you > substitiute 'killed' for 'betrayed'. I didn't like Najara ;) >> > > Excellent point. I rarely saw Xena as hypocritically moralistic, but as > unapologetically honest about the double standard she often applied. Hmm, yes. Like in Crusader, where her conversation with Gabs went something like X: "No. She's too dangerous a girl to leave on the loose. She likes killing too much." G: "But she beat you up so badly." X: "Well, that's another reason." That was so totally frank and unaffected on Xena's part, I burst out laughing. > I'm > not disagreeing with KT. I simply think what she says might be *our* > rationale, but I don't think it's Xena's. To her, a betrayal is a betrayal > -- no less painful or possibly unfair because her reasons were "right." > > -- Ife Agreed, entirely. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 22:28:57 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 16 January 2003 11:17, Ann Reddecliffe wrote: > >> Hell is > > streaming out the portal in Xena's backyard and Michael and his sidekick > are worried. Xena doesn't seem to be in any hurry to take over her new gig > as head demon and earth is becoming hell. Michael however has bigger > worries - Xena as head devil is not very appealing since the last time she > was in hell she nearly defeated heaven. What should the head archangel do? > The answer pops up in the form of Lucifer, an angel that possesses the > stupidity of the truly vain. Lucifer volunteers to go to earth to send > Xena to hell hoping to > attain his promotion of Seraphim. Michael, who knows a patsy when he sees > one, gives his permission. Michael just might get what he really needs - a > king of hell who is not a warrior princess.>> > > I must admit that it was motivations that I found a problem in this > episode. Who did what is clear, but why? > > Michael had every right to be worried about Xena taking over in hell. As > you say "look what she did last time". Yet, why was he sending Lucifer? > Did he want Lucifer to succeed or did he hope for him to fail? I think he was having a bet both ways. > I wondered if Michael, also being unangel-like, wanted Lucifer to fail, so > he could get rid of an annoying upstart. A few unangel-like thoughts from > Michael there - jealous? Did he see Lucifer as someone trying to take his > place in the power structure of Heaven (does it have a power structure??)If > Michael set Lucifer up, then he already knew Lucifer's weaknesses and > exploited them. Surely this is unworthy of an arch angel. I'm sure Michael did that. But then, in The God You Know, Michael did far worse. He set Eve up to be a martyr to Caligula, just to get Xena to destroy Caligula. I was *really* disappointed when Michael's boss stopped Xena from drowning him ;) I just see Michael as completely amoral. > Perhaps it could be argued that Michael saw this as an extension of the > holy war and saw it as a way of weakening the powers of hell. > > What was Eve trying to achieve? She seemed to be the only person able to > keep her head and see what was the "good" thing to do, but she was willing > to give up her pacifist ways to do it. Well, which was more important to the world - that Eve feel good about sticking to her personal principles, or that Hell be stopped from invading the earth? Xena also kept her head, IMO. She knew where she was heading and went about it quite methodically. > This seems to be an episode where the message is "It is OK to do wrong > things for the right reasons". The ends justifies the means?? In this instance, apparently, yes. Sometimes it does. It depends entirely on the circumstances. (And if that makes it difficult to have a set of rules to judge actions by, well, life is complicated, things are rarely clear-cut, and XWP always recognised that). > What the hell, it was fun and I enjoyed it :-) > > Ann > ========================================================= > This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with > "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. > Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. > ========================================================= ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 23:11:44 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] LL in Lesbian News A while back I was lamenting that the Lesbian News Lucy interview on MaryD's site (www.ausxip.com) was scanned in the form of JPG's, and therefore rather slow to download and not possible to cut & paste if wanting to quote from it. Well, Crystal has gone and typed the whole article in text format and it's on three pages on her site at http://www.charani.org/XenaNews11403Pg1.html I think she deserves a vote of thanks for the effort. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 23:44:18 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 16 January 2003 13:04, Cheryl Ande wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cr" > > "It struck me that Michael was having a bet each way, there, and giving > himself plenty the best of the odds. If Lucifer sent Xena to Hell then it > was one less problem on Michael's plate, and if Lucifer got himself killed > - or just failed miserably - it was one less rival in the > hierarch(angel)ry. It was this ep that first persuaded me that Michael was > completely amoral, happy to use Xena and Eve to suit his purposes, but not > really caring what happened to them. He would go far in the KGB - or the > CIA - and he wouldn't care which so long as it was the winning side." > > This is a delightfully cynical episode. I agree Michael was playing the > odds but I really think he didn't want Xena in Hell not because of any > affection her but simply she was just too dangerous. Lucifer just struck > me as a bit dumb and thus he would be less of a threat. As for Eve I > thought it was interesting that Lucifer had such contempt for Eve. Eli's > messanger isn't held in much esteem in heaven at least the archangels don't > think much of her. Interesting enough there is a story in Islamic lore > that Lucifer was sent from Hell not because he hated God but because he > hated mankind. He believed they were not worthy of God's love and he > refused gGod's order to bow to them. > > "rat! Pesky angels. They were responsible for the whole Eve mess in the > first place. I say Xena shoulda offed him then and there ;)" > > Nope I disagree Xena needed the guy. So did we unless we wanted to see > Lucy in her devil make-up for the rest of season. Well, yes, with hindsight and considering the rest of the ep, you're right. OTOH, I suppose, if Xena had zapped Lucifer, wouldn't Michael have had to do his dirty work himself? Or, try to. > "Xena should be worried too. Gabby *and* Virgil telling her what to do?" > > I don't think that Virgil saw himself as Xena's boss more like a > lieutenant. Of course I don't why he thought Gabrielle would be by "his > side" more likely he would be second to Gabby. Considering Virgil's state of mind at the time, I doubt if he would have played second fiddle to gabby. Probably not to Xena for long, either. ;) (snip) > "I'd say that was obvious. Everybody was at it. (I don't see X and G's > dance, btw, as subtext - I just see it as Xena trying to make Lucifer > jealous. Or whatever deadly sin was due next.)" > > I agree though I think it was designed more to get Lucifer lusty and not > jealous. She was appealing to the voyuer in him. Could work both ways, I think. > "Well, again, I think Michael woulda made Caligula an archangel if it > suited his purpose. Pragmatic, that's Mikey baby. " > > Well I think Mike had some standards here. Certainly he saw Gabrielle as a > "pure soul" and he certainly saw Xena as angel material. Yet, he was quite prepared to sacrifice Xena for his purposes. > He however is a > zealot - his only purpose and goal is to protect Heaven and he will do all > he can to do that. > "Incidentally, I suspect (in retrospect) the handiwork of Michael in > Haunting of Amphipolis. Does anyone think it was pure chance that Hell > happened to break loose in Xena's backyard? Or that Xena came along at > that moment? Does anyone think Mephistopheles said "I think I'll start > my invasion of the world right under Xena, the slayer of gods". No, I > think Michael was orchestrating things there too. Well, actually, we saw > Big Mike and his henchman discussing the lie of the land right at the > start of the ep. They were in it right up to their feathery necks. ;)" > > There are some interesting ideas here. It does seem odd that hell hole > should open up in Xena's backyard. Now all this happened while Xena was in > the deep freeze and I don't quite know how Michael could manipulate Meph > but it ceratinly was fortutous that Xena appeared when she did. > > I wonder how much Michael knew about events on earth. Did he know Xena was > frozen and was he just wainting for her to defrost so he give her the power > to kill gods. Did he convince Callisto to impregnate Xena so she would > give birth to the messanger and therefore be forced to become the god > slayer? Why did the angels watch out for Eve more? they certainly could > have interened a little so wouldn't be evil. Or did her evilness suit > their purposes? Without the guilt would she be so willing to sacrifice her > future to be Eli's messanger? Well, I usually prefer the 'cockup' view of history to the 'conspiracy' theory, but in this case I'll go for the conspiracy view. I think Michael was orchestrating things, right from when Callisto got Xena preggers, right up to when she half-drowned him in God You Know. I'm not saying Michael plotted the entire sequence, there were things he (IMO) obviously couldn't have set up easily, such as Ares burying Xena for 25 years. But I'm sure he was using whatever came to hand and making the most of whatever opportunities presented themselves. > "Go Eve! I was cheering her on there. Finally a bit of the old Livia > surfaces. (And Eve was, on this occasion, absolutely in the right)." > > I wish that a little of Livia would have been incorporated into Eve. Eve > has a tendancy to whine and it would have been much more interesting to > have a strong messanger of Eli than such a whimpy one. Not that I ever liked the Eli thing anyway, but I agree with you about Eve. > " Now there I really did think Xena was taking the mickey. That was a > very pointed dig at 'evil' Gabrielle, IMO." > > No I don't think it was dig at Gabrielle at all. It was just Xena pulling > the rug out from under Lucifer> It also makes sense - why would Xena > suddenly partner up with a complete stranger? She is telling Lucifer that > he was fool to believe that she would ever be his partner. I know her No 1 purpose was to provoke Lucifer. OTOH, here's Gabby, who is normally so annoyingly good, starting to be really influenced by the dark side.... I think Xena (who was relatively unaffected by it but always has a great sense of irony) couldn't resist a little dig at Gabby on this occasion. IMO anyway :) > "Actually, the two who were most resistant by far to the influence of Hell > were Xena and Eve. I think Lucifer was probably influenced by it quite a > lot. Gabrielle and Virgil certainly were. Eve was almost totally (and > painfully) resistant to it, and Xena, while she was giving the appearance > of turning bad, was in almost complete control the whole time. I expect > her past experience of being EvilXena had given her plenty of practice in > staying cool under stress." > > I think Xena and Eve were resistant to the evil but I think Xena rather > enjoyed that evil tingle. Oh yes, I expect so. But I think she was in control all the time, which Gabrielle and Virgil and Lucifer were not. > Gabby certainly succumbed to it a bit but it is > interesting that she never lost her loyality to Xena. I also think a bit > of Gabrielle's fooling around with Virgil was part of Xena's plan to get > Lucifer hot and bothered. Gabby didn't seem to have much interest in > Virgil and there still is the fact she never kissed him. Eve of course was > the most resistant but going for swords showed that she wavering. She may > have been right but there was a lot of satisfaction when she finally let > that warrior out to play. Certainly there was for me! > "Hmmm... how about 'jealousy'? I figured Xena and Gabs dancing were > calculated to make Lucifer jealous. That could replace sloth." > > Oddly enough jealously isn't one of the seven deadly sins, I think it may > be an off shoot of lust. I have to admit I worked really hard to get sloth > in there. I sort of really twisted things a bit to get Lucifer to be > slothful. > > CherylA Yes, you did. ;) But I find it rather amazing that jealousy, which has probably caused more trouble over the ages than all the Seven Deadly Sins put together, isn't one of them. It may be an offshoot of envy, but somehow it seems stronger and qualitatively different from mere envy IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:56:24 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Beauty & Brawn base set I have one extra base set which I would like to sell for $10 including shipping. I bought a box and got one extra set - can't complain though I got 2 costume cards, the dual Lucy and Ren autograph card, and Yakut autograph - I lucked out. Anyway let me know if anyone is interested. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #16 *************************************