From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #15 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, January 16 2003 Volume 03 : Number 015 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Ann Reddecliffe" > ["Cheryl Ande" > [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 22:17:12 -0000 From: "Ann Reddecliffe" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] <> >> Hell is streaming out the portal in Xena's backyard and Michael and his sidekick are worried. Xena doesn't seem to be in any hurry to take over her new gig as head demon and earth is becoming hell. Michael however has bigger worries - Xena as head devil is not very appealing since the last time she was in hell she nearly defeated heaven. What should the head archangel do? The answer pops up in the form of Lucifer, an angel that possesses the stupidity of the truly vain. Lucifer volunteers to go to earth to send Xena to hell hoping to attain his promotion of Seraphim. Michael, who knows a patsy when he sees one, gives his permission. Michael just might get what he really needs - a king of hell who is not a warrior princess.>> I must admit that it was motivations that I found a problem in this episode. Who did what is clear, but why? Michael had every right to be worried about Xena taking over in hell. As you say "look what she did last time". Yet, why was he sending Lucifer? Did he want Lucifer to succeed or did he hope for him to fail? I wondered if Michael, also being unangel-like, wanted Lucifer to fail, so he could get rid of an annoying upstart. A few unangel-like thoughts from Michael there - jealous? Did he see Lucifer as someone trying to take his place in the power structure of Heaven (does it have a power structure??)If Michael set Lucifer up, then he already knew Lucifer's weaknesses and exploited them. Surely this is unworthy of an arch angel. Perhaps it could be argued that Michael saw this as an extension of the holy war and saw it as a way of weakening the powers of hell. What was Eve trying to achieve? She seemed to be the only person able to keep her head and see what was the "good" thing to do, but she was willing to give up her pacifist ways to do it. This seems to be an episode where the message is "It is OK to do wrong things for the right reasons". The ends justifies the means?? What the hell, it was fun and I enjoyed it :-) Ann ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:04:56 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" "It struck me that Michael was having a bet each way, there, and giving himself plenty the best of the odds. If Lucifer sent Xena to Hell then it was one less problem on Michael's plate, and if Lucifer got himself killed - or just failed miserably - it was one less rival in the hierarch(angel)ry. It was this ep that first persuaded me that Michael was completely amoral, happy to use Xena and Eve to suit his purposes, but not really caring what happened to them. He would go far in the KGB - or the CIA - and he wouldn't care which so long as it was the winning side." This is a delightfully cynical episode. I agree Michael was playing the odds but I really think he didn't want Xena in Hell not because of any affection her but simply she was just too dangerous. Lucifer just struck me as a bit dumb and thus he would be less of a threat. As for Eve I thought it was interesting that Lucifer had such contempt for Eve. Eli's messanger isn't held in much esteem in heaven at least the archangels don't think much of her. Interesting enough there is a story in Islamic lore that Lucifer was sent from Hell not because he hated God but because he hated mankind. He believed they were not worthy of God's love and he refused gGod's order to bow to them. > "rat! Pesky angels. They were responsible for the whole Eve mess in the first place. I say Xena shoulda offed him then and there ;)" Nope I disagree Xena needed the guy. So did we unless we wanted to see Lucy in her devil make-up for the rest of season. "Xena should be worried too. Gabby *and* Virgil telling her what to do?" I don't think that Virgil saw himself as Xena's boss more like a lieutenant. Of course I don't why he thought Gabrielle would be by "his side" more likely he would be second to Gabby. > "I hated that orgy. It looked cheap. Not very subtle. Didn't like Xena's evil gear, either." Didn't mind the orgy looked a like one I saw once in Tanhauser. As for Xena's evil gear that was alright but I don't thing Xena would ware such high heels - awkward to fight in. Obvious Lucy wasn't thrilled with them either since she made a point of commenting on them in Paadena. When she was dancing with ROC it really made the hegth difference much more noticable so she had to sort stalk around ROC like a "praying mantis". "I'd say that was obvious. Everybody was at it. (I don't see X and G's dance, btw, as subtext - I just see it as Xena trying to make Lucifer jealous. Or whatever deadly sin was due next.)" I agree though I think it was designed more to get Lucifer lusty and not jealous. She was appealing to the voyuer in him. "Well, again, I think Michael woulda made Caligula an archangel if it suited his purpose. Pragmatic, that's Mikey baby. " Well I think Mike had some standards here. Certainly he saw Gabrielle as a "pure soul" and he certainly saw Xena as angel material. He however is a zealot - his only purpose and goal is to protect Heaven and he will do all he can to do that. > "Incidentally, I suspect (in retrospect) the handiwork of Michael in Haunting of Amphipolis. Does anyone think it was pure chance that Hell happened to break loose in Xena's backyard? Or that Xena came along at that moment? Does anyone think Mephistopheles said "I think I'll start my invasion of the world right under Xena, the slayer of gods". No, I think Michael was orchestrating things there too. Well, actually, we saw Big Mike and his henchman discussing the lie of the land right at the start of the ep. They were in it right up to their feathery necks. ;)" There are some interesting ideas here. It does seem odd that hell hole should open up in Xena's backyard. Now all this happened while Xena was in the deep freeze and I don't quite know how Michael could manipulate Meph but it ceratinly was fortutous that Xena appeared when she did. I wonder how much Michael knew about events on earth. Did he know Xena was frozen and was he just wainting for her to defrost so he give her the power to kill gods. Did he convince Callisto to impregnate Xena so she would give birth to the messanger and therefore be forced to become the god slayer? Why did the angels watch out for Eve more? they certainly could have interened a little so wouldn't be evil. Or did her evilness suit their purposes? Without the guilt would she be so willing to sacrifice her future to be Eli's messanger? > > "Go Eve! I was cheering her on there. Finally a bit of the old Livia surfaces. (And Eve was, on this occasion, absolutely in the right)." I wish that a little of Livia would have been incorporated into Eve. Eve has a tendancy to whine and it would have been much more interesting to have a strong messanger of Eli than such a whimpy one. > " Now there I really did think Xena was taking the mickey. That was a very pointed dig at 'evil' Gabrielle, IMO." No I don't think it was dig at Gabrielle at all. It was just Xena pulling the rug out from under Lucifer> It also makes sense - why would Xena suddenly partner up with a complete stranger? She is telling Lucifer that he was fool to believe that she would ever be his partner. > "Actually, the two who were most resistant by far to the influence of Hell were Xena and Eve. I think Lucifer was probably influenced by it quite a lot. Gabrielle and Virgil certainly were. Eve was almost totally (and painfully) resistant to it, and Xena, while she was giving the appearance of turning bad, was in almost complete control the whole time. I expect her past experience of being EvilXena had given her plenty of practice in staying cool under stress." I think Xena and Eve were resistant to the evil but I think Xena rather enjoyed that evil tingle. Gabby certainly succumbed to it a bit but it is interesting that she never lost her loyality to Xena. I also think a bit of Gabrielle's fooling around with Virgil was part of Xena's plan to get Lucifer hot and bothered. Gabby didn't seem to have much interest in Virgil and there still is the fact she never kissed him. Eve of course was the most resistant but going for swords showed that she wavering. She may have been right but there was a lot of satisfaction when she finally let that warrior out to play. > "Hmmm... how about 'jealousy'? I figured Xena and Gabs dancing were calculated to make Lucifer jealous. That could replace sloth." Oddly enough jealously isn't one of the seven deadly sins, I think it may be an off shoot of lust. I have to admit I worked really hard to get sloth in there. I sort of really twisted things a bit to get Lucifer to be slothful. CherylA > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:02:01 -0800 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena Fan Club Kit #6 UPDATE XENA KIT #6 -- video portion approved! The DV cam master will be sent to me tomorrow from my editor and arrive Friday. I then send it off to the duplication house. They make a VHS master which they send to me for approval. I sit down and look at that the minute it arrives and then phone them with the word "GO!" It takes about a week to manufacture the amount we need. Then it's stuffing time in Glendale Sharon Official Xena Fan Club ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 22:45:48 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Tuesday 14 January 2003 12:32, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Heart Of Darkness > > (many random and uncharted snippages) > Lucifer volunteers to go to earth to send > Xena to hell hoping to attain his promotion of Seraphim. Michael, who > knows a patsy when he sees one, gives his permission. Michael just might > get what he really needs - a king of hell who is not a warrior princess. It struck me that Michael was having a bet each way, there, and giving himself plenty the best of the odds. If Lucifer sent Xena to Hell then it was one less problem on Michael's plate, and if Lucifer got himself killed - or just failed miserably - it was one less rival in the hierarch(angel)ry. It was this ep that first persuaded me that Michael was completely amoral, happy to use Xena and Eve to suit his purposes, but not really caring what happened to them. He would go far in the KGB - or the CIA - and he wouldn't care which so long as it was the winning side. > On earth Eve is worried, a terrible evil is brewing at the portal. Gabby > realistically suggests stepping away from the hell mouth but Eve will not > be mollified. Indeed things do get worse when Lucifer announces to the two > women that he is here to cast Xena into Hell. In the inn's courtyard an > oddly unconcerned Xena is braiding Argo's mane, when Eve and Gabby rush in > to announce the next crisis in their lives. A bored Xena says, "let me > guess it's huge and potentially devastating". When Lucifer flies in, Xena > is happy to see that it is indeed "huge and potentially devastating". I loved the way she delivered those lines.... X: "So it _is_ huge and potentially devastating. Goody." ... specially the 'Goody' :) > Lucifer announces that he is sending Xena to hell, and Xena cheerfully > begins to battle him. Although Lucifer gets a few good shots in much to > Xena's annoyance, he is rapidly defeated. As Xena is about to dispatch the > angel, Eve begs for his life - it really isn't good to kill angles. Drat! Pesky angels. They were responsible for the whole Eve mess in the first place. I say Xena shoulda offed him then and there ;) The short fight was cool, though, specially the way Xena dodged Lucifer's fireballs. > Eve is disturbed by Xena's behavior and sure enough there is a growing > black spot in her heart. When Gabrielle asks what that was Eve solemnly > declares that an evil is growing in her mother's heart. Gabrielle seems a > bit non-plussed by Eve's mournful announcement. That was a really, really bad special effect, IMO. Looked really cheesy. Since when did Eve get the X-ray vision anyway? She never used it before or since. > Meanwhile Eve is having a tough time in Amphipolis. Her preaching of love > has been rejected and a near riot has broken out. She and Gabrielle are > then summoned by a young lady who tells them that Virgil is at the armory > looking for them. As they approach a crowd they see a man being beaten. > Gabby assumes it's Virgil (I don't why - there was nothing about Virgil > which would indicate that he couldn't take care of himself in a fight, > perhaps she's confused him with his father) Umm, because usually, when movie characters are summoned in a hurry, it's because one of their friends is being beaten up? > but is shocked to discover that > the bully beating the boy is Virgil. She is in for a bigger surprise when > Virgil makes a brazen pass at her and announces he was going to help Xena > rule the world with Gabby at his side. Eve is now really worried - Hell's > darkness is infecting everyone around her. Xena should be worried too. Gabby *and* Virgil telling her what to do? Almost enough to make one say "See ya Big L" and jump over the edge.... > Xena now has Lucifer in her bedroom (she obvious has taken over the > Conqueror suit at the inn). As Xena undresses she tells Lucifer they have > a lot in common. Lucifer scoffs they have nothing in common -she is > "lying woman, with savage tendencies, and a blond girlfriend" I noticed that. Lucifer's a subtexter!! > The townspeople are obvious about to have an orgy. Xena is carried in on a > litter dressed in the latest dominatrix fashion, followed by a very happy > Gabrielle who is also dressed to the nines. I hated that orgy. It looked cheap. Not very subtle. Didn't like Xena's evil gear, either. > Xena is planning a farewell > bash for Lucifer but Eve will have done of this. Much to Xena's > displeasure Eve says she will stay and fight against the evil about her. > Her tirade is stopped when Gabby bops her on the head with the Eli fish > symbol, as Gabby says, "nobody likes a party booper". For once I almost liked Gabby. ;) > > The party is abruptly interrupted when Michael and Raphael arrive. > Lucifer's soul belongs to god and it isn't his to give away. Michael isn't > happy with Xena either. He denounces the filth he sees around him. > Although this has been interpreted by some as Michael's denunciation of > Xena's seductive dance with Gabby, I think Michael is actually denouncing > the general promiscuity he sees. I'd say that was obvious. Everybody was at it. (I don't see X and G's dance, btw, as subtext - I just see it as Xena trying to make Lucifer jealous. Or whatever deadly sin was due next.) Either way, considering Michael's actions, he comes across as a great big hypocrite, to me. > If we accept that X & G have been a > couple for a long time then Michael knew of their relationship when they > were in heaven and he certainly had no problem with either of them, making > them archangels. Well, again, I think Michael woulda made Caligula an archangel if it suited his purpose. Pragmatic, that's Mikey baby. > They are not however too embarrassed not to leap to Xena's defense but > Michael disarms them. More angels arrive Xena easily fights them off. She > taunts Michael with his angels' incompetence. He then zaps her to the hell > mouth. Armed with two swords Xena battles the two angels but things don't > look good. Suddenly Lucifer arrives. He joins Michael against Xena but > Xena is not through with Lucifer yet. She pulls out all stops, with tears > in her eyes she tells Lucifer that once she was heaven's hero but look how > they treated her now implying that Lucifer will be treated the same way. I thought Xena was telling him no more than the truth. She wasn't above setting people up when she had to - e.g. Anthony - but in this case, Lucifer was just so much cannon fodder to Michael. Incidentally, I suspect (in retrospect) the handiwork of Michael in Haunting of Amphipolis. Does anyone think it was pure chance that Hell happened to break loose in Xena's backyard? Or that Xena came along at that moment? Does anyone think Mephistopheles said "I think I'll start my invasion of the world right under Xena, the slayer of gods". No, I think Michael was orchestrating things there too. Well, actually, we saw Big Mike and his henchman discussing the lie of the land right at the start of the ep. They were in it right up to their feathery necks. ;) > Anyway > things are getting out of hand with Xena and Lucifer, Xena counters that > she and Virgil were really getting hot - "the dark side is seductive." A > grinning Gabrielle agrees. Xena now enthusiastically describes her plans > for her rule with Lucifer (has Xena lost it?). No, never, this was just the start of the big set-up. > Lucifer and Virgil arrive > to begin their partnership with Xena but Eve interrupts. She will fight > Xena and tries to cast out Xena's dark side but is knocked on her butt by > the evil force. Xena is finally exasperated by her daughter and leaves > wondering where she has gone wrong with her daughter. Nice Addams Family moment, that ;) > > Eve pursued by her mother and Lucifer takes refuge in Eli's temple. There > she encounters Virgil who says prayers won't help her - he will have his > revenge for his father's murder. Eve agrees prayer won't help, she need a > sword instead. Suddenly Gabrielle appears - she won't let Eve throw away > her principles Now that was a bit hypocritical even for Gabrielle. I suppose the dark side was well in charge by then. > but Eve says she must throw Xena into Hell to save the > world. She pleads with Gabrielle to help her. Gabrielle agrees but as Eve > passes her, Gabrielle suddenly grabs her and yells for Xena. Eve has been > betrayed and she faces her irate mother. Xena taunts her - her little > pacifist wants the swords - how hypocritical - has she learned nothing > from her mother. Eve says - yep she has learned a lot. She punches Virgil > in the nose and tosses Gabby aside. Go Eve! I was cheering her on there. Finally a bit of the old Livia surfaces. (And Eve was, on this occasion, absolutely in the right). > She leaps to the alter - looking at > her mother she tells her exactly what she has learned "the heart may lie > but the sword never does" (apparently there is a darkness growing in Eve's > heart also) She was still in the right, though. ;) > Lucifer fights her and soon has her at his mercy. As he is about to kill > her Xena stops him. The honor of killing Eve doesn't go to him but to > Gabrielle. Now there I really did think Xena was taking the mickey. That was a very pointed dig at 'evil' Gabrielle, IMO. > She has been her partner for years and they have gone through so > much together while Lucifer is so easily corrupted and quick to change > sides. Lucifer is incensed - she tricked him. Xena coldly informs him > what did he expect - he tried to kill her. Lucifer says she will eternally > feel his Wrath. "WRATH" - Xena says he has won the seven deadly sin > lottery - sin while natural in man is monstrous in an angel. Lucifer now > turns into a demon and the battle is on. He is further enraged when Xena > says that he has probably been set up by Michael for this very purpose and > then she kicks Lucifer into his new kingdom. Perceptive, that Xena chick, huh? ;) Actually, the two who were most resistant by far to the influence of Hell were Xena and Eve. I think Lucifer was probably influenced by it quite a lot. Gabrielle and Virgil certainly were. Eve was almost totally (and painfully) resistant to it, and Xena, while she was giving the appearance of turning bad, was in almost complete control the whole time. I expect her past experience of being EvilXena had given her plenty of practice in staying cool under stress. > The spell is broken. Eve says she should have had faith in her mother, but > Xena says that Eve had every reason to doubt her. Xena had faith that love > would save them. Xena then gives Gabrielle and Virgil a bit of a worried > look - my interpretation - Xena's wondering if there was more to Gabby and > Virgil's attraction than a temporary aberration. Virgil is chagrined and > thanks Xena for keeping him from making the mistake of his life (hum did he > means sleeping with a good friend or sleeping with a good friend who has a > girlfriend with savage tendencies). Or sleeping with a friend all of whose romantic attachments end up dead...? > > This was a wonderful episode. Some people complained that they didn't like > Xena again using her body to accomplish her goals. Well actually Xena > didn't have much choice. She couldn't fight her way out her predicament - > she had to think her way out. I had no problem, except Xena's entrance in the orgy scene. It looked cheap. In fact, I don't really think the orgy was necessary to the plot. Except possibly as a way of p***ing off Micheal enough for him to come in, both swords blazing, and have a fight with Xena. > Then of course Eve is so > annoyingly good that it is a guilty pleasure to watch most of the > characters clobber her clobber her. 'Annoyingly good' ? Oh now Eve is not the only one guilty of that.... > Finally we have the seven deadly sins and this how I interrupted them in > this episode: Hmmm... how about 'jealousy'? I figured Xena and Gabs dancing were calculated to make Lucifer jealous. That could replace sloth. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #15 *************************************