From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #12 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, January 13 2003 Volume 03 : Number 012 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [Trek4u269@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [Trek4u269@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:30:29 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena Respectful snippage On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Cheryl Ande wrote: > First as much we may not like it there is a > different standard for woman than for men. Hercules or Iolus could have the > girl of the week and we see that as an indication of their manliness. Now > reverse that, if Xena and Gabrielle were off with a different guy each week we > have a pretty icky feeling that our gals were just a tad immoral if not > trampy. OR, they could have just named the show "Sex In The Forest" and ran with that premise. snip snip Promiscuous sex > and being a female hero and role model hardly go hand in hand in television > land. True but XWP broke many molds. One of the things I > liked about Xena is that it was very female centered - the woman in the show > were not obsessed about their love life - they weren't concerned about not > having husbands or boyfriends. I LOVED this about XWP--that the story was about them, not "their" men. They men they were attracted to were those > that respected their independence and always treated them as equals. These > guys however were few and far between. Hercules, Marcus, Ares and Antony > appreciated Xena because she was their equal in all respects and they had to > work hard to prove they were worthy of her. > > CherylA True. I wonder if she actually ran auditions. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 20:38:46 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > " Well no, I don't see Xena as mooning after anybody. (This is why I get > peeved when Xena goes mooning after Gabs! :) I don't mind guys > mooning after her. I would. ;)" > > Actually that would have been interesting. We always had some girl just > falling head over heels for Hercules or Captain Kirk. It would have been > nice to see guys just swooning after Xena and she just goes about her > business with a quick kiss and a pat on the fanny for the infatuated guy. Well, wasn't this what she did to Ares in Ares Farm. Teasingly leaning in as if to kiss him and them pinching his little cheek instead. And leaving him lusting in the dirt. What a woman... KT > > CherylA > > > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:03:48 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > Xena - Gabs did have some mushy stuff in it, > > > though. It was rather more than just a 'female buddy' thing. > > > > And your basis for what goes on between female buddies would be ....? > > > > > > -- Ife > > I assume the female equivalent of male 'buddy flicks'. And you don't find > any mushy stuff in Herc & Iolaus, or Butch & Sundance. > > cr Oh I definitely beg to differ. I've posted before about the sub-text in Hercules. (A post that is unfortunately no longer on my hard drive.) Now, I never watched Herc much but of course I watched the Lucy crossovers. And we have this scene in Armageddon II where Iolaus is in the past, trying to save the pregnant-with-Hercules Alcmene from Hope's attempts to kill her. And this is the dialogue between them from Whoosh: Alcmene: You're willing to risk your life? For me and my baby? Iolaus: He'd do the same for me-- he has, many times. I'd gladly die so that you and your boy could live. I am who I am-- because of him. I am one of the people whose lives he changed-- one of the many. And I love him like a brother. (And Hurst plays this scene VERY emotionally. His eyes fill with tears and he's all choked up, crying over his lost companion.) Alcmene: I was hoping for a girl. (KT--LOL! Great line.) Alcmene: With a friendship like yours-- my son must be very special. He has a lot to live for-- and so do I. I: I can't imagine a world without him. (KT--Sappy sod...) Alcmene: Be careful, Iolaus. Now this is nothing but the H&I equivalent of "Even in death (little buddy) I will never leave you." And there's Mom (and the mom's ALWAYS know) talking about the special friendship between H & I. Uh-huh. Don't tell me there ain't no sub-text in HTLJ. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 22:32:48 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena Respectful snippage of discussion of text, subtext, eye of the beholder, overt, covert, obviously oblivious/obliviously obvious, etc. > > And a mention of Fried Green Tomotoes - makes the blood boil!! - as in the > book on which the film is based, the relationship is clearly and openly one > of lovers and life partners. Only for the mass consumption Hollywood block > buster are our relationships relegated to "subtext" - you can choose to see > it or not. Thanks very much. > As always when movies are based upon good books, I found the book much better than the movie. The book revolved around Idgie's burning desire and love for Ruth and her quest to live with her as her romantic partner forever. This was the spine of the whole story. I just couldn't understand why they even bothered to make the movie when they gutted the primary relationship that way. Fannie Flag WROTE it that way originally. I wonder how she felt about bowlderizing her own work like that when she was writing the screen play. Like The Color Purple--again, Celie and Shug are not shown as lovers onscreen when that is how the original text portrays them. (Of course the Color Purple also was criticized since a white boy directed it.) I have to admit, not being a Spielberg fan, I never saw that movie, mostly because I did love the book. And hell, even Spielberg, the boy wonder of Hollywood whose movies are ALWAYS rip-roaring successes, who can get ANYTHING green-lighted is apparently afraid of showing same sex couples when they have been created and portrayed in the original work. Why the hell is this? And I ain't gonna listen to any crap about boycotts or offending the "family values" people. The raging desire of most movie-makers is to get an "R" rating--otherwise they figure they're dead meat at the box office. The desire to put enough nudity, "adult" language or scenes of people making love to get that "R" rating ain't exactly what the far right would call a family value. So why are they so reticent about showing love between two people when they happen to be the same sex? Surely this would just guarantee them the desired "R". We are getting more gay characters on screen, particularly the TV screen. Though usually not as the lead characters, however. (And in Will and Grace, have you ever noticed that Grace and Karen have kissed each other a hell of a lot more than Will and any guy ever have?) I wonder if Fried Green Tomatoes and The Color Purple were produced today, would the same-sex couples be de-sexed or be allowed to remain true to themselves onscreen? On a bright note for airing out the closet, I just read in the Houston newspaper that Showtime Cable is going to start a "Sex in the City" type show next year about lesbians in L.A. I suspect this is due to the success of Queer Folk on the same station. (I LOVE queer folk--dancing naked boys just about every week...) KT > > Understand it - but it still stinks. > > Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:26:06 EST From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena In a message dated 1/12/2003 3:00:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Maybe, from the lesbian point of view, it's really unfair for TPTB to show > heterosexual affairs while merely suggesting lesbian ones. But TPTB > weren't > making the show for the lesbian market, and in the wider world of > majority-rules ratings-driven TV, I think they went much further with the > subtext than they needed to have done and are deserving of acknowledgement > for the extent they did go to, not complaints for not having gone further. > I agree. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:28:46 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Monday 13 January 2003 17:55, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/12/2003 4:59:59 AM Central Standard Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Ife said: > > > See, that's one of the reasons I have to keep on-screen X&G > > > separate from my off-screen view. I can't pretend I didn't see eps > > > that conflict with X&G as a couple. Nor do I want to hurt my brain > > > trying to resolve those conflicts. I'd rather let other folks 'splain > > > why G would encourage her spouse to hop in bed with "bad boys." I > > > could assume maybe that's a version of an "open" relationship, but > > > that would conflict with my > > > off-screen view of them as dedicated to each other. > > > > Hmmm. So, you have the same problem with A&C that I do with OAAA and > > MWF, I > > think. All I can do is ignore those eps, which goes right against my > > philosophical belief that 'what's on screen is canon'. I'd love to > > find a > > valid 'internal' / 'narrative' reason to explain away or even ignore > > those eps, but I can't. So all I can do is override my usual modus > > operandi and > > say, in effect, 'the hell with it, I can't make those eps fit so I'll > > just ignore them anyway'. It preserves the remains of what on a good > > day passes for my sanity ;)>> > > Actually, I didn't have a problem with any of the eps you mention above > (from a subtext perspective), even MWF. I don't ignore eps. OK, so how then do you reconcile A&C with your subtext views? I thought that did cause you a problem? > To me, all of > them "fit" in RT's vision somehow, or he wouldn't have gone to the trouble > of producing him. However, I do think the "relationship" took on a life of > its own that RT never anticipated, but nevertheless accepted as an > enhancement to his vision. > > I see one thread that is very supportive of "soulmate"/romantic love in its > various forms (including sex) and one thread that supports a more general > "soulmate/best friends" (which excludes sex). For the former, I feel free > to turn on my subtext lens. For the latter, I turn off my subtext lens. > That, in essence, is my lazy way of getting around the inevitable conflicts > that occur between the two lenses. In cases where I see both threads > present (AFIN being the most notable for me), I watch them as parallel, > even tho I can also appreciate the added dimension they might give each > other. This is why, for me, AFIN is both heroically affirmative and > heroically tragic. Rather than choosing one over the other, I simply > appreciate what I can of both. A sort of voluntary schizophrenia ;) Actually, I applaud it. It certainly increases the enjoyment you get out of the series, I think. I do know what you mean, it's a sort of mental trick to ignore (oops, there's that word again :) the conflict between the two views. I do know what you mean though I'm not putting it very well. Very useful it can be, too. > < more than enough self-esteem to dally when she felt like it. The demon of > her past that hounded her in to trying to make amends, I don't think > handicapped her personal relationships. > > Of course, this is one of those 'imagine what you want' cases - I'm happy > to imagine that Xena had, as you say, others we didn't see, whereas you > (lfe), I suppose, prefer to imagine what Xena and Gabrielle were doing > off-camera...?>> > > Not really, at least in terms of the TV show. I didn't care what they did > off-camera. Oh, sorry. That's why I said 'I suppose', I didn't want to presume on the way you saw it. I too don't care what they did off-camera, which is why my impression that Xena probably had a few more affairs in her own time is general, not specific. I just think she's the sort of uninhibited person who would. (Unless, of course, restrained by the subtext, but for me that isn't a factor). > In the "best friends" scenario, I merely assumed one of them > did or wanted to have relationships with men (or maybe another woman). In > the subtext scenario, I assumed they were monogamously sexually active with > each other. I didn't "prefer" to see them as "a couple" off-camera; they > just happened to live and relate to each other on-camera in a way that fit > my concept of "a couple," with the nonsubtext eps eventually seeming to me > to be aberrations best viewed on their own terms. Once I saw X&G as a > couple, then, yes, I tended to prefer reading fanfic which explored what to > me would be "natural" for that particular couple to do. > > -- Ife Almost the opposite (as we know) of my view. I see the more obtrusive subtexty bits as aberrations. What the heck there's plenty of good stuff there either way :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:37:43 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena On Monday 13 January 2003 19:03, KTL wrote: > > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > > Xena - Gabs did have some mushy stuff in it, > > > > though. It was rather more than just a 'female buddy' thing. > > > > > > And your basis for what goes on between female buddies would be ....? > > > > > > > > > -- Ife > > > > I assume the female equivalent of male 'buddy flicks'. And you don't > > find any mushy stuff in Herc & Iolaus, or Butch & Sundance. > > > > cr > > Oh I definitely beg to differ. I've posted before about the sub-text in > Hercules. (A post that is unfortunately no longer on my hard drive.) Hold it! Do not equate 'subtext' with 'mushy stuff'. The two can on occasion be the same, but certainly not always. I am, btw, much more tolerant of Xena-Gab subtext when it isn't being mushy ;) > Now, > I never watched Herc much but of course I watched the Lucy crossovers. > And we have this scene in Armageddon II where Iolaus is in the past, > trying to save the pregnant-with-Hercules Alcmene from Hope's attempts to > kill her. And this is the dialogue between them from Whoosh: > > > Alcmene: You're willing to risk your life? For me and my > baby? > > Iolaus: He'd do the same for me-- he has, many times. I'd gladly > die so that you and your boy could live. I am who I am-- because > of him. I am one of the people whose lives he changed-- one of > the many. And I love him like a brother. > > (And Hurst plays this scene VERY emotionally. His eyes fill with tears and > he's all choked up, crying over his lost companion.) Yeah *but* - and I think this is relevant - Iolaus is talking about his friend, not *to* his friend. I don't think you'll find Herc and Iolaus getting emotional to each other very often, if at all. Guys don't At least, TV-hero-guys don't. And he says "I love him like a brother". Could hardly be more explicity non-subtexty, could it? > Alcmene: I was hoping for a girl. > > (KT--LOL! Great line.) > > Alcmene: With a friendship like yours-- my son must be very > special. He has a lot to live for-- and so do I. > > I: I can't imagine a world without him. > > (KT--Sappy sod...) > > Alcmene: Be careful, Iolaus. > > Now this is nothing but the H&I equivalent of "Even in death (little > buddy) I will never leave you." > > And there's Mom (and the mom's ALWAYS know) talking about the special > friendship between H & I. Uh-huh. > > Don't tell me there ain't no sub-text in HTLJ. > > KT Well, TPTB even had a little fun with it - Nebula twitted Iolaus about his close friendship with Herc the first time they met, in Web of Desire. (Good ep, by the way - Nebula was great in that ep.) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:48:04 EST From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena Xena Trek Just like fans of star trek. Xena fans have dissected every episode and found the contrqadictions or holes............OR they put on blinders and just take it as it is dished out as if it was "supposed" to make sense. Even in comics the next writer will ignore things set up by a previous writer. TV shows do it all the time. For example: Xena: started out on hercules as a villain/ then redeamed . At the beginning of her own series there was NO gabby and xena subtext. Those who have read the history of the show from hong kong flicks, wonder women, etc know how things poanned out in season 1.......and why renee was chosen as the sidekick gabrielle. My point....if Xena was a lesbian in the guantlet and then retained that when xena was a series...or even if the show began with her and gabrielle being romantic THEN I could see some people feeling like TPTB copped out at the end. They didnt. A fantasy adventure series with unicorns, giants, gods, and ghosts is not on tv for me to compare to my own lifestyle or race problems to (where are the black people in Lord of the rings....dang...they couldve had a black hobbit or dark elf...hehe). Sex in the city, queer as folk, rosanne, and old shows like all in the family or good times are . How can I compare mysel;f to a person that has dies and came back, been an angel, and killed gods....lol or a half god, or a person that had children with a demon or centaur. Besides..............I think Xena and gabrielle are bisexual and in an open relationship (not like most men of power or warlords didnt have several wives, women and men, etc). Look at dating and sexual relation in the medivial time (and things like first knight). And then take into account that this is a "Fantasy setting". ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 00:39:15 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena Snipperooos > > No for me that's an important distinction. Because if Xena and Gabrielle > > WERE a monogamous romantic/sexual couple, then in this ep, Xena's a bum. > > And I don't think that she is.>> > > I wasn't clear. I meant that I wasn't into all the psyche stuff -- healing > old emotional wounds and such. Not because I disagree with it. It's just > not my forte. See, that's one of the reasons I have to keep on-screen X&G > separate from my off-screen view. I can't pretend I didn't see eps that > conflict with X&G as a couple. Nor do I want to hurt my brain trying to > resolve those conflicts. Ahhhh, that's right--you write alt fanfic--I forget that when talking to you about the show. > > So for this ep at least, it is important to my belief in Xena as a > > noble and honorable person that she and Gabrielle are soulmates but not > > a committed romantic couple.>> > > Wait a minute. I misunderstood you above. It appears we're both saying > we're looking at X&G from two perspectives. But if you saw them as best > friends re: Antony, where'd the "healing old wounds in her psyche" come from? *siiiiiigh* From my FIRST post on this thread. Xena not feeling she was worthy enough to have a sex just for fun. Does ANYONE listen to me?!!! ;-> > It sounds like a rationalization for "betraying" G, whereas I'd think X's > attraction to A wouldn't need any explanation in the "best friends" context, > other than the reasons X found A "hot." > See above. Xena gave up a lot of creature comforts once she took off on her redemption path. Look at her with Borias, when she's a warlord. They've got themselves a nice little yurt, fur blankies, little heating and cooking stoves, nice warm clothing, decorated hats even. Check out her big comfy cabin on her pirate boat. Look how she wound up living in the lap of Lao Ma's and Odin's luxury. And remember her castle in The Warrior Princess? And that nice little hot tub (with little blond kid included!) She moved into living a VERY spartan (heh) life when she turned her back on her old self and her old ways. All she took with her was literally the clothes on her back, her weapons and her horse. (And some ratty cheese and bread that she gave away to that boy.) She was out to do PENANCE! Some folks assume that that certainly explains why she let Gabrielle come along with her. Not me though. And it wasn't that she had no options--remember they find that Sumarian treasure trove in Fistful of Dinars. She COULD have bought herself some nice things with that money. But no, she continues to deprive herself of some easily attained creature comforts. This is why I figured she'd drop sexual enjoyment also. I still think that's what usually held her back from consummating most of her sexual interest sparks. And this is why I see her allowing herself to feel love for Antony as a sign of her healing psyche. > > It now seems to have evolved into a discussion of how many liasons there > > were, rather than how few there were.?>> > > Okay, forget my painstaking reply above. Grrrrrr. Are you agreeing > with Thel or not? > On what? SMILE > > Six years of show, six boys. You call that a lot? (This of course, is > > studiously ignoring Evil Xena's fellas and girls since they were all ten > > year ago. Or so.)>> > > Grrrr again. No, I don't call that "a lot." I simply meant that these > examples to me *did* reinforce the idea of her as a "gloriously" sensual > creature, and *did not* support the idea that self-disgust prevented her from > enjoying the dalliances we saw or from having others we didn't see. Others we didn't see. Ooooooooooooo, > > > And I see you've listed Draco again...OH, I get it--you like Draco > > yourself don't you? (It's his hair-hat, isn't it?)>> > > LOL! No, I list him because of the sexual tension I saw between them in > Sins. The way Xena brushed his cheek and talked to him suggested a genuine > former bond and regret that things between them had soured. I thought it > significant that this element was in the first ep and that a variation was > played out later with Marcus. It gave me my initial perception of Xena as a > fully sensual being in the past, who was now dedicated to working against > (betraying) people she'd once shared a life with in the most intimate of > ways. That made her reformation a lot more meaningful to me, in terms of the > pain involved in her new path. > Hmmmm. Yeah--this is a motif, you're right. BUT she only betrays them as don't want to change for the better. Or who feel they *can't*. > > What do you mean they switched places? Xena was not learning from > > Gabrielle's new lessons/new outlook. Xena was lost and didn't give a damn > > where they went in the physical world. >> > > I disagree. I think Xena was deeply affected by her role in what happened to > Gab in S3 and by Gabs' questioning of herself and of violence. Oh yes, she was, absolutely. For most of > S1-2, Gab put a lot of faith in Xena's instincts -- indeed, learned from them > and initially wanted to be a warrior in Xena's mold. Xena invested a lot in > teaching Gab what was useful and protecting her from what was bad. Suddenly, > both of them were forced to question themselves and each other. This led > directly to Xena's doubts about her "path," to being open to people or ideas > she instinctively mistrusted, but which seemed to offer Gabs some positive > things that Xena thought she couldn't. Hmmmmm. I don't know if I totally agree that Xena ever dropped her suspicious nature over things she instinctively mistrusted. She kept that wariness and "prove that you're what you say you are to me" right to the end, I think. And of course, she was usually right about people. When the Ghost Killer confronts her over Higuchi, she believes him right away. Because he's truthful and she knows it. And she knows it because she's Xena. (Except for season four, when she was not fully Xena and did indeed read a few villians wrong in her insecurity and befuddlement.) In Legacy, she's on guard against Kahina right away--she doesn't find her simply amusing when she first argues with and attacks X&G--Xena sees a flaw in her that is later validated by Kahina's wavering loyalty and lack of flexibility. Both women made mistakes in that > learning process, yet Gabs' quest ultimately helped Xena to resolve her own > crisis of faith. By taking her to India where Krishna blessed her--yes. > > By "switched roles" in S4, I don't mean that Gabs became the "parent" or > "taught" Xena directly. I mean that Xena was positioned more as following > Gabs' quest, observing and assessing Gabs' "lessons," supporting her, and > learning about herself in the process. > I think she assessed Gab's lessons right away and realized it was a hopeless situation. Gabrielle needed to be with Xena more than anything else in her world. Xena needed to continue her quest which (as Krishna just validated) includes continuing to be a warrior. Joining a warrior on her quest precludes being a pacifist. This is why Xena kept trying to leave Gabrielle behind in season four. She was willing to leave her with Najara, with Aiden, tried to send her off with Eli on Mt. Aetna. To allow her the room to be what she thought she wanted to be but also to try to keep her from dying on the cross with her. None of it worked. Season four is just so inexorable a season in plodding ever onward to those horrific crosses in the snow. KT > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:30:26 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Monday 13 January 2003 22:39, KTL wrote: > Snipperooos > > Ahhhh, that's right--you write alt fanfic--I forget that when talking to > you about the show. Enlighten my ignorance - what's alt fanfic? > > Wait a minute. I misunderstood you above. It appears we're both saying > > we're looking at X&G from two perspectives. But if you saw them as best > > friends re: Antony, where'd the "healing old wounds in her psyche" come > > from? > > *siiiiiigh* From my FIRST post on this thread. Xena not feeling she was > worthy enough to have a sex just for fun. Does ANYONE listen to me?!!! > ;-> Umm, yup. But *I* want Xena to have been feeling up to it, from much earlier on. ;) For totally licentious reasons of my own > > It sounds like a rationalization for "betraying" G, whereas I'd think > > X's attraction to A wouldn't need any explanation in the "best friends" > > context, other than the reasons X found A "hot." > > See above. Xena gave up a lot of creature comforts once she took off on > her redemption path. Look at her with Borias, when she's a warlord. > They've got themselves a nice little yurt, fur blankies, little heating > and cooking stoves, nice warm clothing, decorated hats even. Check out her > big comfy cabin on her pirate boat. Look how she wound up living in the > lap of Lao Ma's and Odin's luxury. And remember her castle in The Warrior > Princess? And that nice little hot tub (with little blond kid included!) The little blond kid in this context being Iolaus? > She moved into living a VERY spartan (heh) life when she turned her back > on her old self and her old ways. > > All she took with her was literally the clothes on her back, her weapons > and her horse. (And some ratty cheese and bread that she gave away to that > boy.) She was out to do PENANCE! Some folks assume that that certainly > explains why she let Gabrielle come along with her. Not me though. No? Stop trying to look innocent KT. Of course it was. I've heard it argued that Xena was suicidal in SOTP.... I don't buy that. But obviously she decided that suicide was too easy and she needed to suffer more. :) > And it wasn't that she had no options--remember they find that Sumarian > treasure trove in Fistful of Dinars. She COULD have bought herself some > nice things with that money. But no, she continues to deprive herself of > some easily attained creature comforts. > > This is why I figured she'd drop sexual enjoyment also. I still think > that's what usually held her back from consummating most of her > sexual interest sparks. > > And this is why I see her allowing herself to feel love for Antony as a > sign of her healing psyche. Hmmm, I never saw her (in Seasons 1 and 2) as being consumed by guilt over her past. This was probably because TPTB themselves, at that time, didn't see it as other than an interesting little sideline. It wasn't till Season 3, I think, that they fully realised the potential in Xena's Dark Past for fascinating stories, and along with all those vivid reasons for Xena to feel guilty, of course, came an increased sense of guilt for the 'current' Xena. > > > > Okay, forget my painstaking reply above. Grrrrrr. Are you > > agreeing with Thel or not? > > On what? SMILE Search me. :) > > > > Grrrr again. No, I don't call that "a lot." I simply meant that these > > examples to me *did* reinforce the idea of her as a "gloriously" sensual > > creature, and *did not* support the idea that self-disgust prevented her > > from enjoying the dalliances we saw or from having others we didn't see. > > Others we didn't see. Ooooooooooooo, I agree with lfe there. :) > Hmmmmm. I don't know if I totally agree that Xena ever dropped her > suspicious nature over things she instinctively mistrusted. She kept that > wariness and "prove that you're what you say you are to me" right to the > end, I think. And of course, she was usually right about people. When the > Ghost Killer confronts her over Higuchi, she believes him right away. > Because he's truthful and she knows it. And she knows it because she's > Xena. (Except for season four, when she was not fully Xena and did indeed > read a few villians wrong in her insecurity and befuddlement.) Did I say I hated most of Season Four? Precisely because of that. It wasn't the Xena I expected to see. > > By "switched roles" in S4, I don't mean that Gabs became the "parent" or > > "taught" Xena directly. I mean that Xena was positioned more as > > following Gabs' quest, observing and assessing Gabs' "lessons," > > supporting her, and learning about herself in the process. > > I think she assessed Gab's lessons right away and realized it was a > hopeless situation. Gabrielle needed to be with Xena more than anything > else in her world. Xena needed to continue her quest which (as > Krishna just validated) includes continuing to be a warrior. Joining a > warrior on her quest precludes being a pacifist. > > This is why Xena kept trying to leave Gabrielle behind in season four. > She was willing to leave her with Najara, with Aiden, tried to send her > off with Eli on Mt. Aetna. To allow her the room to be what she thought > she wanted to be but also to try to keep her from dying on the cross with > her. None of it worked. Season four is just so inexorable a season in > plodding ever onward to those horrific crosses in the snow. > > KT That was the only good thing about it. :) In dramatic terms, I mean. And the occasional recurrences of the Vision were a neat dramatic device. But Gabrielle's 'way' was just an exercise in futility. As you said, KT, you can _not_ be a pacifist and hang around a warrior, without all sorts of moral contradictions springing up. Even worse when Gabs made her sporadic attempts to dissuade Xena from doing what she did best (though, Gabs had already been doing that back in Season 3 and probably Season 2 as well). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 16:53:05 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena In a message dated 1/13/03 2:47:58 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: >> OK, so how then do you reconcile A&C with your subtext views? I thought that did cause you a problem? >> I don't have to reconcile anything. A&C is in the "best friends" folder of my brain. It has no impact on the subtext part of my brain. This is how I avoid it causing me a problem, which it might otherwise. Understand now? >Rather than choosing one over the other, I simply > appreciate what I can of both. A sort of voluntary schizophrenia ;) Actually, I applaud it. It certainly increases the enjoyment you get out of the series, I think.>> Yes! And, ironically, contributed to my mental health, as otherwise certain aspects of XWP might have driven my logical mind insane. > In the "best friends" scenario, I merely assumed one of them > did or wanted to have relationships with men (or maybe another woman). In > the subtext scenario, I assumed they were monogamously sexually active with > each other. I didn't "prefer" to see them as "a couple" off-camera; they > just happened to live and relate to each other on-camera in a way that fit > my concept of "a couple," with the nonsubtext eps eventually seeming to me > to be aberrations best viewed on their own terms. Once I saw X&G as a > couple, then, yes, I tended to prefer reading fanfic which explored what to > me would be "natural" for that particular couple to do. > > -- Ife Almost the opposite (as we know) of my view. I see the more obtrusive subtexty bits as aberrations. What the heck there's plenty of good stuff there either way :)>> Agreed. - -- Ife ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xg04.mx.aol.com (rly-xg04.mail.aol.com [172.20.115.201]) by air-xg05.mail.aol.com (v90.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXG54-0113034758; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:47:58 -0500 Received: from mail.orcon.net.nz (mail.orcon.net.nz [210.55.12.3]) by rly-xg04.mx.aol.com (v90_r1.1) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXG43-0113034741; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:47:41 1900 Received: from there (ip-219-88-244-65.dialup.hyper.net.nz [219.88.244.65]) by mail.orcon.net.nz (8.11.4/8.11.1) with SMTP id h0D8lZM03488; Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:47:36 +1300 Message-Id: <200301130847.h0D8lZM03488@mail.orcon.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: cr Reply-To: cr@orcon.net.nz To: IfeRae@aol.com, chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 21:28:46 +1300 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] References: <4b.293e38d0.2b53a0b4@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <4b.293e38d0.2b53a0b4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:49:58 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena In a message dated 1/13/03 3:39:31 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: Ife said: < > I wasn't clear. I meant that I wasn't into all the psyche stuff -- healing > old emotional wounds and such. Not because I disagree with it. It's just > not my forte. See, that's one of the reasons I have to keep on-screen X&G > separate from my off-screen view. I can't pretend I didn't see eps that > conflict with X&G as a couple. Nor do I want to hurt my brain trying to > resolve those conflicts. Ahhhh, that's right--you write alt fanfic--I forget that when talking to you about the show.>> Actually, my alter-ego writes fanfic based largely around what I thought I saw on TV -- including the type of intimacy between X&G that some readers have interpreted as "best friends" and others have interpreted as "a couple" - -- particulary in post-season 2 stories. I have no problems with it being labeled "alt," but it's not nearly as explicit as much of the alt fanfic I've read. > Wait a minute. I misunderstood you above. It appears we're both saying > we're looking at X&G from two perspectives. But if you saw them as best > friends re: Antony, where'd the "healing old wounds in her psyche" come from? *siiiiiigh* From my FIRST post on this thread. Xena not feeling she was worthy enough to have a sex just for fun. Does ANYONE listen to me?!!! ;->>> Yes'm. I just didn't know if the pscyic wounds were related to self-worth or a rationale for betraying Gabs. Got you. See, I was too listening, just not understanding. << All she took with her was literally the clothes on her back, her weapons and her horse. (And some ratty cheese and bread that she gave away to that boy.) She was out to do PENANCE! Some folks assume that that certainly explains why she let Gabrielle come along with her. Not me though.>> LOL! Riiiiight. I don't have much in my personal background around the concept of "penance," but I can certainly see connections to some of the religious concepts I've been exposed to. I understand your point better now. << This is why I figured she'd drop sexual enjoyment also. I still think that's what usually held her back from consummating most of her sexual interest sparks.>> Again, that goes a bit far for me, mainly because I saw as much suggestion that she would do so if she had a mind to. <> Okay, Dr. Ruth. I could add that to the fact that she might've found him damn cute and sexy. > Okay, forget my painstaking reply above. Grrrrrr. Are you agreeing > with Thel or not? On what? SMILE>> On whether the chicken or egg came first, apparently. > > Six years of show, six boys. You call that a lot? (This of course, is > > studiously ignoring Evil Xena's fellas and girls since they were all ten > > year ago. Or so.)>> > > Grrrr again. No, I don't call that "a lot." I simply meant that these > examples to me *did* reinforce the idea of her as a "gloriously" sensual > creature, and *did not* support the idea that self-disgust prevented her from > enjoying the dalliances we saw or from having others we didn't see. Others we didn't see. Ooooooooooooo,>> Sure, why not? Reformed Xena and that guy in Chariots might've go it on while his three kids were asleep. Like I said elsewhere, she definitely rolled around with Herc, could be assumed to have done so with Marcus and Ulysses, and looked on the verge with the con guy and Antony. Who knows what nice fellows the "best friends" might've run across at one of those inns? > > > And I see you've listed Draco again...OH, I get it--you like Draco > > yourself don't you? (It's his hair-hat, isn't it?)>> > > LOL! No, I list him because of the sexual tension I saw between them in > Sins. The way Xena brushed his cheek and talked to him suggested a genuine > former bond and regret that things between them had soured. I thought it > significant that this element was in the first ep and that a variation was > played out later with Marcus. It gave me my initial perception of Xena as a > fully sensual being in the past, who was now dedicated to working against > (betraying) people she'd once shared a life with in the most intimate of > ways. That made her reformation a lot more meaningful to me, in terms of the > pain involved in her new path. > Hmmmm. Yeah--this is a motif, you're right. BUT she only betrays them as don't want to change for the better. Or who feel they *can't*.>> True, but I don't think that lessens the pain of an honorable person who must turn against someone she once had feelings for and who weren't prepared for her to become someone else. I don't see her as having to judge them as "bad" people, just because they don't follow her example or to rationalize what she has to do to them because she's trying to be "good." For most of > S1-2, Gab put a lot of faith in Xena's instincts -- indeed, learned from them > and initially wanted to be a warrior in Xena's mold. Xena invested a lot in > teaching Gab what was useful and protecting her from what was bad. Suddenly, > both of them were forced to question themselves and each other. This led > directly to Xena's doubts about her "path," to being open to people or ideas > she instinctively mistrusted, but which seemed to offer Gabs some positive > things that Xena thought she couldn't. Hmmmmm. I don't know if I totally agree that Xena ever dropped her suspicious nature over things she instinctively mistrusted. She kept that wariness and "prove that you're what you say you are to me" right to the end, I think.>> Agreed. By "being open," I mean she didn't immediately dismiss people like Krafstar, Njara or Aiden. She gave them more rope than she might have in the past. Both women made mistakes in that > learning process, yet Gabs' quest ultimately helped Xena to resolve her own > crisis of faith. By taking her to India where Krishna blessed her--yes.>> Yes. > > By "switched roles" in S4, I don't mean that Gabs became the "parent" or > "taught" Xena directly. I mean that Xena was positioned more as following > Gabs' quest, observing and assessing Gabs' "lessons," supporting her, and > learning about herself in the process. > I think she assessed Gab's lessons right away and realized it was a hopeless situation.>> Hopeless? How so? << This is why Xena kept trying to leave Gabrielle behind in season four. She was willing to leave her with Najara, with Aiden, tried to send her off with Eli on Mt. Aetna. To allow her the room to be what she thought she wanted to be but also to try to keep her from dying on the cross with her. None of it worked. Season four is just so inexorable a season in plodding ever onward to those horrific crosses in the snow.>> But neither G or X accepted the situation as hopeless (and I'm not assuming that's what you meant above). Indeed, had it not been for Callisto's prohibited otherworldly interference, they were well on their way to avoiding the vision. To me, that's why they *earned* a second chance to live on as they had faith in themselves to do. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #12 *************************************