From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #9 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, January 11 2003 Volume 03 : Number 009 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena ["H.J.J. Hewitt" > ["H.J.J. Hewitt" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:26:56 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena Xwpacolyte wrote-- >Tptb ... chose to include in the storyline a suggestion that >Xena has had male lovers. A "suggestion"?!!!!!! Herc and Caesar for a CERTAINTY. TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 01:33:46 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> >Expose my ignorance why don't you? Well, heck, it happened to me, there. \I/ thought calla lilies (arum lilies to Kiwis & Brits) were expensive florist-shop flowers, and when I oh'ed and ah'ed about seeing them LIVE (growing all over, even by the garbage bin of my apt. bldg.) my buddies wondered why I was so agog over "those old weeds!", and could only shake their heads when I told them that they cost a (1965!!!) dollar each at home. >So, do any come from Greece or environs? > >And incidentally, how do they grow? Will see what I can 'dig up' (for cr; won't bother the rest of yez). Only my Texas and N.E. U.S. wildflower books are readily accessible. But there should be something on grasses and weeds of the Great Plains down in under behind stuff. >Or are the rolling ones, dead plants >that have broken away? Yup. A neat-o seed-dispersal mechanism. Picture the tumbleweed in your mind. It's a globe of dry stalks, leaves, and seed pods. At some point in the globe is a central stem where it was attached to the ground when the now-incurved stalks were out-curved. As the plant dies/dries the stalks bend inward and it readily detaches at a ground-level weak point in the central stem. Then the omni-present prairie wind rolls the globe merrily over the ground, scattering the seeds as it goes. TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:18:22 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena On Friday 10 January 2003 12:33, Cheryl Ande wrote: > Yes TV shows have been ruined when sexula tension is destroyed. > Moonlighting was a much better show when Mattie and David were fighting > than when they were having sex. The X-Files was a better show when you > wanted Scully and Mulder to get together than when they actually got > together. I think the same would have been true about Xena and Gabrielle. > It was fun to speculate about their relationship - to anticipate if they > were going to acknowlege their relationship or if they would forever be > star-crossed. I think we would have had them as a couple it would have > soon turned boring. Some may have been absolutely fascinated by two women > in domestic bliss but domestic bliss is unfortunately boring TV. I liked > the subtextual hints and the little clues buried in the episodes - it made > the episodes enjoyable on a kind of subliminal level. Also I think people > who were Joxer fans and Ares fans also wanted that teasing element - would > Gabby discover Joxer's true worth, would Xena see that Ares truly loved > her. They too deserved the thrill of the romantic chase." > Well, as a Xena-Ares fan (I guess, though I'm not a card-carrying member of the Ares-Xena Romantics ;) I can say, it was really interesting watching the 'will-they, won't-they' between Xena and Ares, and it would have lost much of its interest if they actually did. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 21:44:32 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Friday 10 January 2003 20:33, H.J.J. Hewitt wrote: > >Expose my ignorance why don't you? > > Well, heck, it happened to me, there. \I/ thought calla lilies (arum > lilies to Kiwis & Brits) were expensive florist-shop flowers, and when I > oh'ed and ah'ed about seeing them LIVE (growing all over, even by the > garbage bin of my apt. bldg.) my buddies wondered why I was so agog over > "those old weeds!", and could only shake their heads when I told them that > they cost a (1965!!!) dollar each at home. Yeah, we got 'em in our garden. I periodically go out and attack 'em with a machete, because they're growing like crazy all round and over a little pittisporum (native tree) that I'm trying to get established.... I might add that it's by our garden rubbish heap and the lilies established themselves from cuttings my wife threw on the heap ages ago. > >Or are the rolling ones, dead plants > >that have broken away? > > Yup. A neat-o seed-dispersal mechanism. Picture the tumbleweed in your > mind. It's a globe of dry stalks, leaves, and seed pods. At some point in > the globe is a central stem where it was attached to the ground when the > now-incurved stalks were out-curved. As the plant dies/dries the stalks > bend inward and it readily detaches at a ground-level weak point in the > central stem. Then the omni-present prairie wind rolls the globe merrily > over the ground, scattering the seeds as it goes. > > > TEXena Oh, I see. How ingenious. Doesn't need animals to help it along, either. I like it! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:13:08 EST From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena In a message dated 1/9/2003 8:52:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, Xwpacolyte@aol.com writes: > I agree that Xena didn't make race an issue. But sexuality? Xena was with male and female lovers. Xena was a mother. Her sexual preference was never an issue in story lines and in fact the fact that it was never "set in stone' left many fun episodes with ares, caesar, draco, etc. They didnt even make the sexuality pf the amazons an issue. > > Tptb chose to include in the storyline a suggestion that Xena has had > female > lovers. They likewise chose to include in the storyline a suggestion that > > Xena has had male lovers. But only with respect to the female lovers is > there this veil of secrecy called subtext. Where the male lovers were > concerned it was maintext. (With the male lovers we didn't have those long > > drawn out "are they or aren't they" discussions.) > Be realistic. Of course a male/female relationship is maintext. It isnt an issue. Heterosexual fans arent clapping or talking on newsgroups about male/female relationships. The sex preference isnt an issue. But if the man were black and woman were white people would talk...and if it were 2 men or 2 women people would talk. I am a minority and I accept the fact that heterosexuality and same race dating are the norms/choices for most people (not to say anything else is abnormal). Our media of magazines, tv shows, movies, etc are all based on certain priciples of society....why else do they make a fuss and have so much publicity when an interracial kiss or same sex kiss occurs in a show (more so in years past when several tv channels banned showing star trek for kirk kissing uhura in 60s, and rosanne kissing a woman in 90s) Vic Proud PFLAG member and xena fan ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:35:22 -0600 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena POLL Hi Sharon, So,,, NEW scripts.....hmmmmmmmmmm.. Let's see. A Day in the Life. I'm tempted to say Been There, Done That, but if anyone tries to put this on a script, how are you going to replicate the chakram toss at the end? : ) (" .....Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung,Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung, Kchung..... " (how many times? Thirty? Wow) Just joking. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:37:24 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > " Well, as a Xena-Ares fan (I guess, though I'm not a card-carrying member of the Ares-Xena Romantics ;) I can say, it was really interesting watching the 'will-they, won't-they' between Xena and Ares, and it would have lost much of its interest if they actually did." Yes we all seem to have a rooting interest romances but once they consumated the love the game is over and we go home. Years ago some one asked Dave Ducovney if Mulder and Scully would ever get together and he said no because then the X-Files would be about "two boring white people having sex" too bad Chris Carter didn't listen to Dave. CherylA CherylA > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 18:18:33 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena Note: This is a response coming in from the middle of this thread--not from where we wandered off to more recently on this one. On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > I liked that moment of self-doubt and vulnerability. In > a sense, she acts with Rafe as old Xena might have -- arrogantly certain of > his insincerity. "Our" Xena was programming herself to give people a chance, > the benefit of the doubt. Open to questioning herself. But she couldn't do > that instantly, not with all that history. I think it's a mistake to see her > as *either* Evil Xena *or* good Xena. What I love is that we often saw her > caught between the two -- sometimes overcoming old habits, sometimes giving > in to them, but overall trying to learn from her mistakes. I think we had > one of those inbetween situations with Rafe. I agree it is too simplistic to see her as either Evil or Good Xena and not think about her as being able to be both at any time or anything in between. As we've said before, the Xena who let Callisto slip into the swamp and die was a reversion to Evil Xena, whereas the Xena who took Najara to the "authorities" was a mix--Evil Xena as she knocked Najara over the cliff edge and then stomped on her fingers as she dangled helplessly below, but morphing into "In Between Better" Xena when she listened to Gabrielle's pleas to pull Najara up. (And then snuck a few punches in on Najara AND left Gabrielle to hang for a little bit, probably to appease her annoyance over having Evil Xena's fun stomping time interrupted by the whiny little goody two-shoes.) > > << And again, I saw her wanting to make love with Antony as a sign of a > healing of some old wounds in her psyche. (Note: For this post, I'm > assuming a best friends take on the X&G relationship.)>> > > LOL! I'm not as into all that as you. No for me that's an important distinction. Because if Xena and Gabrielle WERE a monogamous romantic/sexual couple, then in this ep, Xena's a bum. And I don't think that she is. If X&G were lovers who had committed fully to each other, then Xena would respect and honor that. Absolutely. She would certainly not have been so easily interested in other people. And especially in this ep--where the tragedy of the ep for Xena is that she has come to realize she could love this man. That he was a person she would want to spend time with, one who could be a good partner to/for her. And she knows that the mission (because of HIS decisions) demands that she has to defeat him. And knowing him, she knows that having to defeat him means that she will have to kill him to do so. Note: I have some gay buds who have no major problem with FIN but LOATH A&C just for this--that Xena was obviously smitten in a very serious way with this guy and this is a betrayal of her relationship with Gabrielle. So for this ep at least, it is important to my belief in Xena as a noble and honorable person that she and Gabrielle are soulmates but not a committed romantic couple. I saw it purely as, "Damn, this guy > is getting to me, and if not for the fact that he's so much like the old me, > I could really fall for him." Ironically, unlike with Rafe, she wanted very > much to give Antony every benefit of the doubt she could. If only he would've > accepted partnership with Octavius, she could've gotten the man and > accomplished her mission. But the series wasn't called "Xena: Warrior > Empress of Her Enemy Rome." LOL! Actually, I think that we've wandered from my initial point when I got involved. Which was a response to Thel's comment that Xena didn't have as many sexual liasons as one would have expected for such a gloriously sensual, sexual and charismatic chica. It now seems to have evolved into a discussion of how many liasons there were, rather than how few there were. And I just don't see Xena taking on Draco. There just wasn't any sexy spark in any of their scenes that I ever saw. Even when in Comedy of Eros, Xena is besotted with Draco. Lucy plays Xena as an infatuated kid with a mega crush--she sure doesn't portray a grown women seeing something she wants and generating heat to or from the object of her interest. She gets satisfaction from touching him during arm wrestling, for pete's sake. "Wanna go again?" I LOVE the face Lucy makes, the satisfied little shake of the head when he agrees and they settle back down into position. > > > Ife finished: > > Let's face it -- the girl > had a busy schedule of lots of work, with her few hours of playtime > reserved for Gabrielle. > > Ife > > Oh--so she's too BUSY for casual sexual dalliances eh? (Casual because in > ANY take, Xena sure ain't going to go riding off into the sunset with some > boy.)>> > > Exactly. At least, that seems more likely to me than angst about being > unworthy of casual sexual dalliances. Like I said before, I just didn't see > self-disgust keeping her from implied sex with Hercules, Marcus and Ulysses > or possible sex with Draco, Rafe or Antony. Six years of show, six boys. You call that a lot? (This of course, is studiously ignoring Evil Xena's fellas and girls since they were all ten year ago. Or so.) And I see you've listed Draco again...OH, I get it--you like Draco yourself don't you? (It's his hair-hat, isn't it?) > > <> > > Heh. I'm not sure that's inaccurate for the first few seasons with Gabs. That's absolutely what I saw early on. Xena was very maternal with Gabrielle to me. As Renee said on stage in Pasadena, this was a hook she used to try to get a spin on the characters, a maternal view of the relationship. Which made Lucy stomp over to her yelling, "Four years! I'm only four years older than you!" I enjoy that tape immensely--I seem to find something new on it every time I run it. > Hmmm. Then Gabs became a mother, which (because of Solan's murder) gave Xena > an intensely personal reason for her missions against Dahok & Co. In S4, X&G > switched places helping each other find their way. What do you mean they switched places? Xena was not learning from Gabrielle's new lessons/new outlook. Xena was lost and didn't give a damn where they went in the physical world. When she said to Gabrielle in Family Affair, "You are my way" I think she was referring to the Gabrielle she'd been with for the last three years. Not the Gabrielle who began to work her way through what the demon Dahok and the heinous Hope did to her. What did you see that makes you say they switched places? Then they shared > motherhood with Eve, which drove both X&G through much of the later seasons. > You know, I'm starting to agree with you (and Cande?) about Xena as a > nurturer. Much more maternal stuff going on than I realized. > > -- Ife KT ;-> ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #9 ************************************