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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #8
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chakram-refugees-digest    Friday, January 10 2003    Volume 03 : Number 008



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Haunting of Amphipolis>>  ["H.J.J. Hewitt" <h]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Haunting of Amphipolis>>  [cr <cr@orcon.net.n]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] RE:  Flirty Xena                 [Trek4u269@aol.com]
  [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena POLL  [Lilli Sprintz <spri0037]
  [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena Poll UPDATE  ["Creation (Sharo]
  [chakram-refugees] xena movie rumor  ["Creation (Sharon Delaney)" <outback]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena                     [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] RE:  Flirty Xena  ["Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena               [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  [chakram-refugees] Fwd: [XN] Lucy in concert AWESOME!  [cr <cr@orcon.net.n]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena                 [Xwpacolyte@aol.com]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 02:01:16 -0600
From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" <hjjh@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Haunting of Amphipolis>>

>> there is even tumble weed in the tavern's court yard (are there tumble
>> weeds in Greece?)
>
>Almost certainly not, I don't think they exist in the Old World.

Well, actually, that's where they came from.  There's more than one kind,
the common name of the best known being "Russian thistle", from its place
of origin.


TEXena
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:22:01 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<The Haunting of Amphipolis>>

On Thursday 09 January 2003 21:01, H.J.J. Hewitt wrote:
> >> there is even tumble weed in the tavern's court yard (are there tumble
> >> weeds in Greece?)
> >
> >Almost certainly not, I don't think they exist in the Old World.
>
> Well, actually, that's where they came from.  There's more than one kind,
> the common name of the best known being "Russian thistle", from its place
> of origin.
>
>
> TEXena

Expose my ignorance why don't you?   <vbeg>

So, do any come from Greece or environs?

And incidentally, how do they grow?   Or are the rolling ones, dead plants 
that have broken away?

cr
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 06:14:54 EST
From: Trek4u269@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE:  Flirty Xena

In a message dated 1/8/2003 4:12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:


> I know
> subtext fans (and I am one) think that X & G's relation is obvious but you
> know great big chunks of the fan base didn't see them that way at all.  
> That
> is why we have Xena/Ares, Gabrielle/Joxer, Gabrielle/Ares,and even 
> occassional
> Xena/Joxer fan fiction.  The nice thing about Xena was that people could 
> take
> from it what they wanted and the people that created the show respected 
> that

That is the sign of a great show when it allows people to come to their own 
conclutions and keeps the subtext fires going but never coming out and saying 
it (like the tv shows where you want the 2 characters to kiss, or get 
together but it never happens...or you want the superhero to tell his or her 
lover who they really are under the mask but it never happens.)

Geez.....at least they kept the subtext going and kept a certain section of 
fans on pins and needles waiting to see if that aspect of the show would be 
made an issue and brought forth episode to episode. The anticipation is far 
better than the action....unless someone is relating their personal life thru 
xena (a tv show character).

Have fun and dont hate on lucy lawless. These cons are getting harder and 
harder the more removed from xena she becomes due to when show ended. I am 
sure it is harder to remember stuff about episodes after a few years already.
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 12:02:11 -0600
From: Lilli Sprintz <spri0037@tc.umn.edu>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena POLL

On  Wed, 8 Jan 2003 Sharon Delaney asked


We're thinking of doing some new scripts for the Pasadena convention.  .....Which ones would you like us to do?


Sharon, if I was able to go, these would be my votes.


Hooves

Who's Gurkhan

Rheingold

Many Happy Returns



Lilli
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:05:35 -0800
From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" <outback@creationent.com>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena Poll UPDATE

I think I phrased this wrong <blush>  I didn't want people to choose which
ones on the list to make.  I wanted a suggestion for new titles we could
add to the ones we already make.
Sharon
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:46:13 -0800
From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" <outback@creationent.com>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] xena movie rumor

I checked with Rob and he'd love to do one, but nothing definite set yet.
It's still in the "3 or 4 years down the road" stage.

Sharon
Official Xena Fan Club
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:31:00 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena

In a message dated 1/8/03 3:58:45 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< They certainly recognised that the subtext fans existed, and went a long 
way 
 (rather further than I personally would have liked, obviously  :)   to cater 
 to them.   But then, they also had to avoid losing the rest of their 
 audience, either by turning some of them off (which Xena Lesbian Princess 
 would probably have done) or boring them (which romance and domesticity 
would 
 certainly have done).    It was a balancing act.    I guess it's very nice  
 for a producer to have a wide audience, but it probably gets to be a 
headache 
 when different factions of it start pulling in different directions.
  >>

You know, one of the things I truly appreciated was the respect I felt they 
showed for the intelligent, openminded viewer.  I didn't feel they "catered" 
to a particular audience or worried so much about offending another segment.  
It seemed more like a balancing act between being true to their original 
"vision" and responding to fan feedback that strengthened or augmented that 
vision.  (I'm not going to try to distinguish here between "commercial" and 
"artistic" motivations.)

Diversity, for example, was a clear element from the very first ep.  It began 
in more subtle ways (e.g., with the actors, characters, music) as a "natural" 
fabric of the Xenaverse, with grounding in the actual diversity that existed 
historically in that part of the world.  It then got explored more explicitly 
as X&G encountered various cultures and philosophical ideas.  To me, sexual 
orientation was one aspect of the diversity that enriched the show.  I 
certainly don't see the subtext as "catered to" more than prevalent modern 
Western/Judeo-Christian notions about beauty, violence, strength, heroism, or 
who should be bedding whom.

- -- Ife
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 18:33:18 -0500
From: "Cheryl Ande" <cande@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE:  Flirty Xena

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Trek4u269@aol.com

  "That is the sign of a great show when it allows people to come to their own
conclutions and keeps the subtext fires going but never coming out and saying
it (like the tv shows where you want the 2 characters to kiss, or get together
but it never happens...or you want the superhero to tell his or her lover who
they really are under the mask but it never happens.)"


  Yes TV shows have been ruined when sexula tension is destroyed.
Moonlighting was a much better show when Mattie and David were fighting than
when they were having sex.  The X-Files was a better show when you wanted
Scully and Mulder to get together than when they actually got together.  I
think the same would have been true about Xena and Gabrielle.  It was fun to
speculate about their relationship - to anticipate if they were going to
acknowlege their relationship or if they would forever be star-crossed.  I
think we would have had them as a couple it would have soon turned boring.
Some may have been absolutely fascinated by two women in domestic bliss but
domestic bliss is unfortunately boring TV.  I liked the subtextual hints and
the little clues buried in the episodes - it made the episodes enjoyable on a
kind of subliminal level.  Also I think people who were Joxer fans and Ares
fans also wanted that teasing element - would Gabby discover Joxer's true
worth, would Xena see that Ares truly loved her.  They too deserved the thrill
of the romantic chase."

  BTW if you are going to Pasadena let me know.

  CherylA
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:42:44 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena

On Friday 10 January 2003 09:31, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/8/03 3:58:45 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz
> writes:
>
> << They certainly recognised that the subtext fans existed, and went a long
> way
>  (rather further than I personally would have liked, obviously  :)   to
> cater to them.   But then, they also had to avoid losing the rest of their
> audience, either by turning some of them off (which Xena Lesbian Princess
> would probably have done) or boring them (which romance and domesticity
> would
>  certainly have done).    It was a balancing act.    I guess it's very nice
>  for a producer to have a wide audience, but it probably gets to be a
> headache
>  when different factions of it start pulling in different directions.>>>
>
>
> You know, one of the things I truly appreciated was the respect I felt they
> showed for the intelligent, openminded viewer.  I didn't feel they
> "catered" to a particular audience or worried so much about offending
> another segment.  It seemed more like a balancing act between being true to
> their original "vision" and responding to fan feedback that strengthened or
> augmented that vision.  (I'm not going to try to distinguish here between
> "commercial" and "artistic" motivations.)

I'll buy that.    :)

'Catered' was not a good word, it sounded rather condescending, I couldn't 
think of a better one at the time.   

I like your 'balancing act' description.

Certainly they didn't worry about offending some segments if their audience 
if they really wanted to tell a particular story.   Or, maybe, they did 
consider it but weighed that against the value of telling the story they 
wanted to tell.

So far as offending audiences, they're fickle creatures, and very difficult 
to predict.   'Everybody' seems to like Marcus and detest Ulysses.   In 
Friend in Need, Rob was very worried about the effect of cutting off the head 
of a teenage girl but, as he wryly noted, 'it was Xena's head coming off that 
caused the problem.'

cr
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Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:40:18 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Fwd: [XN] Lucy in concert AWESOME!

Here's another view of the Dave & Lucy show, from Bevis King, posted on UK 
Xenanet.   It appears as if  they may have changed the format slightly from 
Wellington, either that or Lucy's getting more confident and front-stage.   

Note that the accommodation answers the question that occurred to several 
people - 'how many people can they fit in a pub bar anyway?'


cr

Dear all
Sent to the list by our own dear Bevis, currently swanning around Middle
 Earth!

On 09 Jan 2003 11:22:16 +0000, Bevis King wrote:

Subject: Lucy in concert AWESOME!

I'm currently on holiday in New Zealand and when a month or two
ago the details of Lucy's Summer Holiday concert tour was posted,
I realised I'd be staying only a few miles from one of the venues
on the right day.  When I reached the Bay Of Islands, I duely
found the Duke of Marlborough Tavern at Russell - a very
unprepossessing tin shack of a Kiwi Pub and bought my ticket to
see the show. It cost just NZ$30 (ten quid) - not bad for a
big name concert!

It turned out that the concert itself was happening in a marquee
set up in the pub's back paddock.  I also discovered that there
would be a late night ferry back across the Bay to where I was
staying in Paihia.  On the Saturday evening, I made my way down
to the ferry and arrived early - I'd been told to get there
early to get a good seat.  They expected a packed show - with
like maybe 200 people there!

The concert itself started with an up-and-coming Kiwi singer/
songwriter, Anika Moa, doing a solo accoustic set.  As ever being
a warm-up act is hard, but once she got into doing covers of
well-known songs rather than her own material, she got the
audience to join in and it worked well enough.  A little after
9:20pm, the main act came on - initially just Dave Dobbyn and
the band.  Dave Dobbyn is apparently a local rock hero, but I'd
only had limited exposure to his music through a CD I picked up
a couple of years ago featuring him, Neil Finn and Bic Runga on
a similar summer super group tour.  After about three songs,
including "Just Add Water", Lucy came out on stage.

Her first number was a simply storming rendition of probably
my favourite Kiwi song - Sharon O'Neil's "Maxine".  Lucy's
version was simply awesome.  With all the punch, snarl and
despairing bleakness of Sharon's version, added to by Lucy's
strong voice and the setting, it really came to life for me.
I'd been hoping that Lucy would do something I knew by either
Sharon O'Neil or Jenny Morris, and in choosing this one, Lucy
certainly made me happy!  It was really a moment to treasure
for me.

After that beginning, nothing that came later had quite the
same impact for me, probably simply because I wasn't so
passionate about the other songs, only a few of which I even
knew.  Never-the-less, thoughout Lucy sang on maybe 75% of the
other songs, often taking the lead.  She, Dave Dobbyn and the
band were on stage for maybe two hours and it was really
awsome.

It certainly wasn't quite what I'd expected.  I'd somehow got
Lucy pegged as more of a showtunes kind of singer, but that
wasn't what we were presented with that night.  This was pure,
brutal, angry and rebellious rock-and-roll.  Only on a few
occasions did the softer side of Lucy's voice show through,
but that is not a criticism.  Quite the opposite in fact, it
really just showed Lucy's versatility - just don't expect this
to be an easily listening concert tour - it ain't.

Throughout Lucy wore green combat trousers, a plain white tank
top with a stripey black and white bikini top showing through.
At one point Lucy drove the audience wild by going to remove
her tank top, but then decided against it.  Her hair is back
to a lighter brown and a little shorter and more curly than it
was in Xena days, but she still looked simply stunning.  For
the first few numbers she wore a leather baseball cap but that
came off after a few numbers.  It was hot in that tent, believe
me.

After the show, I went back swiftly to the dock to get in line
for the Ferry home.  It was raining pretty heavily and the
spirits of the crowd around were high, reinforced no doubt by
the significant amounts of alchol sold by the pub that night.
I reckoned there was little chance of getting a signature
anyway as the security was very tight (ok, large and Maori!).

All in all it was a great evening an a big surprise to me as
it showed me another side of Lucy.  I'd never expected that
rough-'n'-tough rocker personality - more evil Xena than the
Lucy we've seen before on musical items.  Great though.

Regards, Bevis.
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Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 23:50:34 EST
From: Xwpacolyte@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena

In a message dated 1/8/03 11:20:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
Trek4u269@aol.com writes:

<< Xena and gabby "coming out" at the end would do nothing positive for the 
 shows conclusion...merely make a some fans feel better based on their sexual 
 preference. Not like the rest of us dont see Xena and Gab as life partners. 
 It is best left as subtext.
It is a white male heterosexual protestant dominated society still and that 
 is the perception that is the norm. I accept that - for now.
 In fact....the BEST thing about xena was that it didnt make sexuality or 
race 
 an issue. Xena was with black men...Amarice too. ANd no other characters 
ever 
 blinked about the races mixing in that time period. Cool. >>


I agree that Xena didn't make race an issue.  But sexuality?  If sexuality 
(and with respect to subtext, we mean homosexuality) weren't an issue, it 
seems to me that at some point Xena would have been depicted in a 
relationship with a female lover.  It was hinted at (subtext) that M'Lila 
and/or Lao Ma may have been Xena's lovers, and more strongly with Akemi.  But 
we never in 6 years saw any indisputable confirmation.  (Well maybe some 
folks did, but I didn't.)

Tptb chose to include in the storyline a suggestion that Xena has had female 
lovers.   They likewise chose to include in the storyline a suggestion that 
Xena has had male lovers.  But only with respect to the female lovers is 
there this veil of secrecy called subtext.  Where the male lovers were 
concerned it was maintext.  (With the male lovers we didn't have those long 
drawn out "are they or aren't they" discussions.)

I believe that tptb were sensitive to the (homo)sexuality issue.  But to say 
that they were sexuality-blind, in the same sense that we use the term 
color-blind, would not be accurate.

XWPacolyte
Cupid and Psyche...   Antony and Cleopatra...   Xena and Gabrielle.
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