From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #7 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, January 9 2003 Volume 03 : Number 007 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [chakram-refugees] OS: Tony Todd on Andromeda 1/4/2003 ["Jackie M. Young"] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [Trek4u269@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] OS: Jeremy Callaghan on Lost World ["Jackie M. Young" ] [chakram-refugees] OT: ST [was: Flirty Xena] ["Jackie M. Young" ] [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena POLL ["Creation (Sharon Delan] [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 20:52:26 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OS: Tony Todd on Andromeda 1/4/2003 I was channel-surfing on Sat. 1/4, and saw Tony Todd (Cecrops) on Andromeda playing a paranoid/power-hungry starship captain who also kinda seduces Romi. ;) He did OK, but I wasn't fond of the character, so it was hard to tell if it was him or his acting that didn't engage me...;=/ Just FYI, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 02:39:44 EST From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena Let us not forget this is the medivial times. Women were the ones cooking and making the homes and the men were the hunter/gathers and were off fighting the wears and sailing the ships, etc. How are they to have men swoon all over a "tom boy" female warrior? It wasnt the mentality of the times...even if they do add a fantasy element. I am a black male and I accept the role that blacks have in medivial fantasy...including exclusion in movies most times (like Lord of rings). And in all of the season you can count the number of women that hercules was with on both hands. In fact Xena had more males than hercules had females (as someone else noted). AND...................in other shows it is not male oriented. Notice in Cleopatra 2525 that the 3 female leads have their way with men in each episode. So did Max in Dark Angel. ANd I study blaxploitation films and shows and the female black leads were meaner and more sexual than the male leads (cleopatra jones, foxy brown, etc). Besides....the female lead shows of 90s and up were playing to male audiences that liked watching tough females as much as or more than it wanted to grab a female audience. Laura Kroft: tomb raiider, queen of swords, cleopatra 252, buffy the vampire slayer, dark angel, birds of prey, sheena, red sonja, resident evil, xena, etc. Leaving any relationship as subtext to be defined by each individual is brilliant. It doesnt get your show banned in alabama or kentucky and it doesnt change the forucs of the show from fantasy adventure into lesbian quest. Making sexuality or race an issue takes away from an action show unless it is a soap opera. That would be like saying frodo and sam are gay in lord of rings (male buddies that cry together and hug). The focus would not be on the show and in People magazine it would be talking about the sexuality of the characters and not the plot. Xena and gabby "coming out" at the end would do nothing positive for the shows conclusion...merely make a some fans feel better based on their sexual preference. Not like the rest of us dont see Xena and Gab as life partners. It is best left as subtext. It is a white male heterosexual protestant dominated society still and that is the perception that is the norm. I accept that - for now. In fact....the BEST thing about xena was that it didnt make sexuality or race an issue. Xena was with black men...Amarice too. ANd no other characters ever blinked about the races mixing in that time period. Cool. I would have liked to seen xena with draco not gabby...lol The interracial fantasy medivial couple....which would also be banned in deep south. Hehe Just kidding. I liked xena because it wasnt trying to deal with issues and was just fun. They left the subtext to the fans where it is in good hands. Love you all And i will hug some of you again at the next con or creation gathering..hehe ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:41:39 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OS: Jeremy Callaghan on Lost World Forgot to mention: I'm pretty sure this was a rerun, but also on the same Sat. (1/4) I saw Tony Todd (Cecrops) on Andromeda, I also saw Jeremy Callaghan (Pompey, Palemon) on Lost World, playing an evil magical-type young boy grown up (didn't watch it closely, so that's the best description I can muster ;( ). Since Lost World is shot in Australia, it didn't surprise me to see Callaghan (who's Aussie) on it. I've also seen the guy who plays the king who gets smitten by Salmoneus in drag on HTLJ (Men in Pink??) in the Lost World series, too. ;) Just FYI, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 23:54:40 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: ST [was: Flirty Xena] On Sat, 4 Jan 2003 23:42:26 +1300, cr wrote: On Saturday 04 January 2003 12:45, Cheryl Ande wrote: >> Actually that would have been interesting. We always had some girl >>just falling head over heels for Hercules or Captain Kirk. > >Captain Kirk? Gotta be kidding me, the guy's got all the charisma of.... >umm, Ulysses. (IMO, of course ;) - --Actually, I had a crush on William Shatner when ST:TOS came out, so *I* don't think he was too bad-looking. ;=) I think he had a flair for being a ladies' man, perhaps because he might be that sort IRL? ;) A friend of mine who's now working on the show(s) used to say he thought Shatner over-acted quite a bit, but in the context of an *adventure* series, I thought it was appropriate, IMO. Kinda like some people think XWP is cheesy/cartoony. ;P Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 14:41:37 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena On Wednesday 08 January 2003 13:04, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > I've personally never heard Lucy or other key Xenastaff "staunchly" deny > the subtext. In fact, I've heard them consistently say they were glad that > this was one of the "realities" many viewers saw. XWP may have been > conceived as an action show about a complex female "hero," and there are > many who, even at the end, probably watched it solely for the butt-kicking, > the cheese cake, the campiness, the mythic themes or whatever -- with no > concern one way or the other about what was going on between X&G. Hi. (Waves madly :) > Nevertheless, TPTB seemed to embrace another "reality" that XWP had evolved > into much more for a large segment of fans -- that the "love" between X&G > resonated in a universal way with diverse groups of people and became the > "heart" of why they watched it. They certainly recognised that the subtext fans existed, and went a long way (rather further than I personally would have liked, obviously :) to cater to them. But then, they also had to avoid losing the rest of their audience, either by turning some of them off (which Xena Lesbian Princess would probably have done) or boring them (which romance and domesticity would certainly have done). It was a balancing act. I guess it's very nice for a producer to have a wide audience, but it probably gets to be a headache when different factions of it start pulling in different directions. > As for Lucy, I can only assess what she said and did based on what she says > was her reality. I believe her when she says she was proud that, as a > person and in her character, she brought light to other realities. I don't > know what experiences she or ROC drew on that made X&G's relationship so > "real" in so many ways, only that the result seemed genuine. The irony is, > Lucy's post-series revelations about Xena's gayness do not suggest to me > that she yet "gets" what many of us saw over the course of six years of > viewing intact episodes, accompanied by minute dissections of every scene, > word, gesture or expression. Yet I've been just as involved in discussions and I don't "get" it. It's very much a case of you see what you want to see (as do I). I know as an observer what you're talking about, but I obviously don't feel the same way. In the case of those minute dissections, on occasion I've seen people read all sorts of things into the performance which others see quite differently. In other words, half of what you 'get' is your interpretation, a sort of fanfic. (Same applies to me, of course). I don't suppose Lucy's entirely ignorant of the subtexters' point of view. If she had had time to be on the Internet more, she might have a fuller idea, but I can understand why she wouldn't want to hang around a place where every third post was slagging off her, Rob or the writers. (Not Chakram, I hasten to add). > It's not the day-to-day interactions with > Gabrielle that Lucy says finally struck her, but the sudden introduction of > Akemi, whom some of us may believe paled in comparison to, say, Lao Ma or > even M'Lila as possibly a key former lover. Well, the interactions with Gabrielle were deliberately written to be non-conclusive. And in Friend in Need (I'm reading the commentary to the Director's Cut), it struck Lucy that Gabrielle might be jealous of her prior relationship with Akemi and that's the scene that she thought 'outed' X and G. Interestingly enough, ROC didn't look at it that way, she played it as if it was just another(!) old acquaintance that Xena was only now telling her about. That's how it struck Lucy, it didn't strike me that way at all, by the way. Or, apparently, ROC. > Lucy's hindsight views about XWP may one day be very different from what > she said during production or what she seems to be basing now on > impressions of AFIN. Maybe she'll sit down and watch the eps from > beginning to end. If so, she might finally see a difference between the > production reality of *playing* a couple of women living together vs. the > on-screen reality of *being* the couple many of us saw in every sense of > the word and took for granted would "naturally" extend to their off-screen > private lives. > > -- Ife Or, maybe not. ;) Yes, Lucy's views, if she watches the series, may change from what they are now. I'm sure she knows very well that there's a difference between what the actor sees and what the audience sees. I expect she'll come to her own conclusion about the series, which may or may not coincide with your view (or mine :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:41:20 -0800 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] new scripts for Pasadena POLL On with the thinking caps! We're thinking of doing some new scripts for the Pasadena convention. They will also be available for sale online/catalog. Below are the ones we've already released. Which ones would you like us to do? Sharon Official Xena Fan Club Creation Ent. Army Fins Debt Sacrifice Price Greater Good Remember Nothing Hooves Doctor Furies Devi Way Between Fallen Angel Girls Just Wanna Ides Rome Family Affair Ret of Callisto Quill Sins of Past Chakram Animal Attraction Them Bones Seeds of Faith Lyre God Fearing Child Eternal Bonds Amphipolis Under Seige Antony and Cleopatra Looking Death in Eye Livia Eve Motherhood Coming Home Haunting of Amphipolis Heart of Darkness Who's Gurkhan Rheingold Ring Ares Farm Legacy Abyss Ret of Valkyrie Dangerous Prey God You Know You Are There Path of Vengeance Helicon Fates Many Happy Returns Friend ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:12:27 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena Sojourner wrote Why weren't Jonathan and David lovers? The evidence you present in your quote seems obvious to me. And why not Irving Berlin writing about two lovers? He did write many songs for shows and films with gay themes - indeed his 1942 all-serviceman musical review This is the Army popularised the word gay meaning homosexual. Of course there have always been homosexual characters and every situation I mentioned from Irving Berlin's My Buddy to David and Jonathan can be seen as portraying gay love but that is not the usual interpretation. My point was that it is possible for straight males to have deep feelings for some one of their own sex and to express it with deep emotion. I certainly meant no disrepect for those who interprete those situations as representation of homosexual love however I do believe that profound and spiritual bonds between people of the same gender is not the sole and exclusive domain of gays. That's why I have understood but never respected Lucy staunchly denying the subtext and for her to come out (so to speak) now and say - of "if only I had known about Akemi earlier I would have accepted that X and G were married" - well even I can smell the bullshit from here. I never remember Lucy ever staunchly denying subtext, instead she has said repeatedly that it was open to interpretation. She however said at the time FIN was aired that she felt that Xena had been outed on the episode so she certainly isn't suddenly saying something now that she hadn't said before. To say that Lucy was somehow bullshitting in the past is based on the assumption that you know what she thought about the characters and unless you have talked to her about Xena and Gabrielle that's a fairly big assumption. I know subtext fans (and I am one) think that X & G's relation is obvious but you know great big chunks of the fan base didn't see them that way at all. That is why we have Xena/Ares, Gabrielle/Joxer, Gabrielle/Ares,and even occassional Xena/Joxer fan fiction. The nice thing about Xena was that people could take from it what they wanted and the people that created the show respected that. They never denied any fan's intrepretation of their creation. It has been, on the other hand, some fans who have been dogmatic in their insistance that the show be interpretated in a certain way and furious when other fans or even the people reponsible for the show didn't share their opinions. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #7 ************************************