From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V3 #5 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, January 7 2003 Volume 03 : Number 005 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr > ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:23:01 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena On Monday 06 January 2003 16:25, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/5/2003 2:46:17 AM Central Standard Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz > > writes: > > > > Xena - Gabs did have some mushy stuff in it, > > > > though. It was rather more than just a 'female buddy' thing. > > > > > > And your basis for what goes on between female buddies would be ....? > > > > > > > > > -- Ife > > > > I assume the female equivalent of male 'buddy flicks'. And you don't > > find > > any mushy stuff in Herc & Iolaus, or Butch & Sundance. > > Ah. Well, if "mushy" means embracing vs. punching in the shoulder, talking > together vs. spitting together and looking at each other vs. looking away > from each other during emotional moments, then I'd say the'yre might be a > few differences between female and male buddy interactions. Well yes, but you did say 'female buddy movie' or something of the sort. > One can argue > about when the female version turns "sappy" (e.g., KT's view of moments in > Fates), but that criticism seems more tied to whether it seemed "out of > character" or "over done" for a particular moment/situation, than because > of the unself-consciously intimate or caring aspect in itself, which I see > far less of in male buddy scenes. I'm thinking that might be one reason > for the wide interpretations given to X&G's relationship. > > In general, women are given much more leeway in terms of expressing love, > but not anger, while it's the other way around for men. Again, I liked > that both Herc and Xena allowed their characters to defy such "norms." > > -- Ife Fair enough. Equate 'mushy' as 'sappy' if you like. Overly sentimental. It is possible to express emotion, affection, yadda yadda, without being overtly or overly sentimental about it. Sometimes, it's even more effective for being understated. Like Gabby making her last little speech on the deck of the ship at the end of FIN. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:59:24 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 06 January 2003 12:53, Cheryl Ande wrote: > # > # > # > # > # > > > > This is a pretty good Halloween episode. Though I'm not one for haunted > house movies this one was entertaining. I liked some of special effects > especially Gumby Xena and Gabrielle and demon Gabby. > > The story opens with Michael and Raphael watching Xena, Gabby, and Eve. > They say that Mephistopheles has opened a portal to earth from Hell and > that soon he will take over the earth. The only chance the world has is > Xena and they hope she up to the task. It would appear that Heaven can't > protect itself and needs their god-slayer to do a job for them. > Yeah, any investment Michael's mob made in Xena, they certainly got it back with interest, didn't they? > Xena and Gabrielle are taking Eve to Amphipolis to meet Cyrene. Xena > appears to have no doubts that Cyrene and her hometown would be just as she > left it 25 years ago but she is sadly wrong. As Xena happily tells Eve > that Amphipolis is just full of life they enter a very deserted town - > there is even tumble weed in the tavern's court yard (are there tumble > weeds in Greece?) Almost certainly not, I don't think they exist in the Old World. Minor YAXI, but not too bad. > > No one is happy about Eve's revelation. Xena decides to go alone to the > family crypt to see if is true that Cyrene is dead (I guess). At the crypt > she finds Cyrene's tomb broken open her bones charred black and her skull > abused (I assume the missing teeth in the skull came from abuse and not > poor dental hygiene). As Xena tries to clean up the tomb Mr. Exposition (a > beggar) pops up and tells Xena the sad tale of her mother's last days. > Mephistopheles' evil spirits haunted the tavern and although Cyrene tried > to fight them, they slowly drove her mad. Finally when the crops failed > the townspeople turned on her and burned her as witch. The beggar tells > Xena that Cyrene wasn't a witch it was the tavern that was bewitched by > demons - demons that are still there. That was a good scary moment. Actually, I thought the beggar was going to turn out to be evil, but he turns out to be quite a decent guy. (Must be my nasty suspicious nature, I thought the same of the boy in Sins of the Past that Xena gave her lunch to). > > As Xena hurries off to warn her family about the danger, Eve and Gabrielle > have already learned things aren't well at home. As the two women sit down > to enjoy a meal of unidentifiable fruits and vegetables, maggots suddenly > appear in the food. Gabby always first to chow down has already eaten some > of tainted food (I liked Eve's rather weak warning to Gabby after Eve first > sees the maggots, she asks quietly "Have you eaten any of this?" not > "STOP! Don't eat that!). Maybe she was trying to break it to her gently.... very effective, anyway. > > The dissolving hands are a suitably icky scene but things are only going > to get worse for Gabs. As she goes to find Eve she notices a figure etched > in the floor and strange cries emanating from beneath them. Like all good > characters in haunted house stories instead of fleeing from the eerie > sounds and strange carving, Gabrielle of course gets on the floor for a > better listen. What can I say? OK, I won't say it > Arms suddenly appear out of the solid floor and pull her > into a slim pit of water inhabited by demons. The demons are unhappy that > she is not "the messenger" but seem pretty content to drown her in the muck > anyway. (ROC has said because she just got her diver's certificate she was > allowed to swim around in the disgusting brew without a stunt double - > lucky gal). Shoulda kept her mouth shut about the certificate, huh? I'll bet they wrote that bit in specially for her benefit. I wouldn't put it past them. ;) > Xena has now returned to the tavern but has to break in. She meets up with > Eve and they go off looking for Gabrielle. Xena sees the suspicious > carving and hears Gabrielle's frantic cries for help. Xena plunges her arm > through the demon carving I said Gabs was dumb to listen, now Xena sticks her arm through it.... what can I say? ;) > Xena now returns to the shower room and much to her surprise she sees a > naked demon Gabby crawling on the ceiling. Gabby's done it before. Up the cave wall in Girls Just Wanna Have Fun. Gotta watch that girl. But I liked her eyes and her hairstyle much better in HoA. > Whatever joy the sight of a > naked Gabrielle may bring to Xena is severely tempered when demon Gabby > attacks here. As Xena rolls about with the naked demon, Is this what you peoples call 'subtext', then? > she quickly > dresses Gabby and ties her up. Eve appears and now is the time for the > possessed Gabby to tell all. Mephistopheles is now in possession of > Gabrielle and tells Xena that he is ready to come into the mortal realm. One of these days, the bad guy will get a clue and refuse to tell the hero what his secret plan is...... ;) > Back in the courtyard, Gabrielle is pinching the heck out of Xena's neck. > Finally she hits the right spot. Xena awakens and they go off to find Eve. > They find Eve huddled in the washroom and as they help her, Xena announces > her plan. She will spill Eve's blood and bring Mephistopheles in the > mortal world where she can kill him. Gabrielle is again appalled - Xena > can't bring evil into the world and she can't fight all the demons in the > world. Xena is by now really pi**ed off - "My mother's in torment, my > daughter is half dead, and the portal to Hell has open up in my back yard." Yeah, what a lovely line. I loved Xena's expression when she said that one. > With his death, Xena seems almost stunned and little out of it (it's really > a very interesting expression LL has at that moment) but Gabrielle brings > her out of it with good news. In a shaft of light is the freed Cyrene. > She is happily talking with her granddaughter and is very happy to see her > daughter and Gabrielle. Cyrene tells Xena that she will always be with her > and then goes off to heaven. Excellent acting by LL, I think. It always seems to me that Xena in those moments is very slightly 'off', as if there's something not quite right with her. As of course there is, she's now the designated ruler of Hell. > I also want to mentions ROC's demon. She does a great job. She is > incredibly vicious and very gleeful as the vixen. I loved the way she went > all out in the part - even down to the little drop of spit hanging from her > lip - disgusting but very much in keeping with a demon. I have always said > I liked ROC's demons - she is scary because she is little. A little > vicious demon that is kind of cute is scarier to me that some big hulking > guy with horns on his head. The little demon always seems just smarter and > more dangerous than the big guy. > Demon Gabby was the coolest the little blonde kid has ever looked, IMO. I think it was the yellow eyes. Oh well, and the Tina Turner hair. ;) It's a very cool visual effect the way Xena hurls Meph backwards and he spreads his arms and floats to a stop in midair (the clip they borrowed for the titles). Though I'm way *not* into haunted house flicks (I loathed the five mninutes I saw of 'The Amityville Horror') and would never normally bother to watch one, I think TPTB did a darn good job on this occasion. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:21:49 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" . > " That was a good scary moment. Actually, I thought the beggar was going to turn out to be evil, but he turns out to be quite a decent guy. (Must be my nasty suspicious nature, I thought the same of the boy in Sins of the Past that Xena gave her lunch to)." So did I but I think we were lead down that path because after Xena leaves the camera lingers on a slyly smiling begger. He probably was just happy those demons were going to be thrashed by Xena but I thought he was up to no good. > > > > > " I said Gabs was dumb to listen, now Xena sticks her arm through it.... what can I say? ;)' People in spooky movies never do the sane thing. In Blaire Witch Project everyone tells the kids to stay out of the woods but nope in they troop. The haunted houses have blood driping form the walls, the dads act strange, but does any leave - nope they stay right where they are until all hell breaks loose. > > attacks here. As Xena rolls about with the naked demon, > "Is this what you peoples call 'subtext', then? " Yep! > >> "One of these days, the bad guy will get a clue and refuse to tell the hero what his secret plan is...... ;)" I guess it's no fun being evil if you can't brag about it. > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 19:02:07 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Flirty Xena cr wrote: " I assume the female equivalent of male 'buddy flicks'. And you don't find any mushy stuff in Herc & Iolaus, or Butch & Sundance." Well female buddy flicks are just a bit different than male buddy flicks. In Thelma and Louise the two buddies kiss before they drive off the cliff, in Beaches Bette Midler sings The Wing Beneath My Wings about her buddy Barbara Hershey and in Fried Green Tomatoes certainly Iggy gets very emotion about her best friend. Well the fact we don't find "mushy stuff" between men in flicks today doesn't mean that men were never mushy. The idea that men never show any kind of sentlementality towards one another is a convention of the latter part of twentith century. In the early part of the century especially during WWI men certainly got mushy about one another. See the lyrics below - this Irving Berlin ballad was about a soldier singing about his dead comrade in arms, Nights are long since you went away I think about you All through the day My buddy... My buddy... Nobody quiet so true Miss your voice, the touch of your hand Just long to know that you understand My buddy... My buddy... Your buddy misses you Then in the silent film Wings about WWI aviators when Richard Arlen's best friend, Buddy Rodgers, is fatally wounded, Arlen kisses him on the mouth in farewell. This was not suppose to be interrupted in homosexual way but as a sincere display of emotion. Even in the Bible guys get pretty mushy over one another - see David's lamenataion over Jonathan: How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. Actually Xena and Gabrielle's mushy feelings for one another fits rather well into the the history of mushy male friendships. Today any kind of sentlementality between men is considered a weakness or a sign of being effeminate but in the past straight men had deep emotional attachements to one another that they weren't afraid to show. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:27:51 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Tuesday 07 January 2003 12:21, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > " That was a good scary moment. Actually, I thought the beggar was going > to turn out to be evil, but he turns out to be quite a decent guy. (Must > be my nasty suspicious nature, I thought the same of the boy in Sins of > the Past that Xena gave her lunch to)." > > So did I but I think we were lead down that path because after Xena leaves > the camera lingers on a slyly smiling begger. He probably was just happy > those demons were going to be thrashed by Xena but I thought he was up to > no good. Probably just the producer up to no good. They seem to like doing that. Most noticeably, I think, in Motherhood. > > " I said Gabs was dumb to listen, now Xena sticks her arm through it.... > what can I say? ;)' > > People in spooky movies never do the sane thing. In Blaire Witch Project > everyone tells the kids to stay out of the woods but nope in they troop. > The haunted houses have blood driping form the walls, the dads act strange, > but does any leave - nope they stay right where they are until all hell > breaks loose. People in movies never do the sane thing, period. ;) Or sometimes they're just incredibly unobservant. It's the 'Somebody Else's Business' field that Doug Adams described in Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy. There's a hole in the middle of the living room floor belching green flames and they just walk around it and pretend it isn't there. It works very well for subtext cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 14:06:50 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Flirty Xena On Tuesday 07 January 2003 13:02, Cheryl Ande wrote: > cr wrote: > > " I assume the female equivalent of male 'buddy flicks'. And you don't > find any mushy stuff in Herc & Iolaus, or Butch & Sundance." > > Well female buddy flicks are just a bit different than male buddy flicks. > In Thelma and Louise the two buddies kiss before they drive off the cliff, > in Beaches Bette Midler sings The Wing Beneath My Wings about her buddy > Barbara Hershey and in Fried Green Tomatoes certainly Iggy gets very > emotion about her best friend. OK, true. The only one of those I've seen is Thelma & Louise, and I'd forgotten it. I'd assumed that there was (almost) no such thing as 'female buddy' flicks. That's why I assumed they would just be equivalent to a male 'buddy flick' but of opposite gender. My mistake. > Well the fact we don't find "mushy stuff" between men in flicks today > doesn't mean that men were never mushy. The idea that men never show any > kind of sentlementality towards one another is a convention of the latter > part of twentith century. In the early part of the century especially > during WWI men certainly got mushy about one another. See the lyrics below > - this Irving Berlin ballad was about a soldier singing about his dead > comrade in arms, > > Nights are long since you went away > I think about you > All through the day > My buddy... My buddy... > Nobody quiet so true > Miss your voice, the touch of your hand > Just long to know that you understand > My buddy... My buddy... > Your buddy misses you > > > Then in the silent film Wings about WWI aviators when Richard Arlen's best > friend, Buddy Rodgers, is fatally wounded, Arlen kisses him on the mouth in > farewell. This was not suppose to be interrupted in homosexual way but as a > sincere display of emotion. I think maybe you might find those were the exceptions. I don't know for sure, but I have a suspicion that, through history, (and as a wild generalisation), it was considered slightly 'un-manly' to show too much emotion. (As an aside, I would note that kissing (or otherwise) is merely a social convention which has varied in meaning from time to time and place to place. I believe that in, say, Elizabethan times, it was quite common for men to kiss each other where today they would shake hands, and implied nothing more than a polite (or possibly warm) greeting. (I'm sure others who know better will correct me if wrong). I *do* know for example that in Polynesia, specifically the Cook Islands but probably elsewhere too, it used to be the convention for people to kiss on meeting, and that included men. Under the influence of Westernisation (that is, freaked-out Western male visitors :) it has died out between men in Rarotonga, but still is the custom in the more remote outer islands. ) > Actually Xena and Gabrielle's mushy feelings for one another fits rather > well into the the history of mushy male friendships. Today any kind of > sentlementality between men is considered a weakness or a sign of being > effeminate but in the past straight men had deep emotional attachements to > one another that they weren't afraid to show. Hmmm. I need to distinguish between genuine, deep and sincere feelings, (which I don't characterise as 'mush'), and excessive emotionality. Social conventions and individuals vary, but I personally much prefer characters who are laconic rather than over-talkative, reserved rather than over-emotional. This doesn't mean they don't have feelings, just that they tend not to show them. I find such characters much more subtle and interesting, on the whole. (I think we've been all over this before though :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V3 #5 ************************************