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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #359
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chakram-refugees-digest   Wednesday, January 1 2003   Volume 02 : Number 359



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  [chakram-refugees] Lucy News Item          [NZJester <nzjester@ihug.co.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena             [KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>]
  [chakram-refugees] Finally got the joke - Warrior Priestess Tramp  [Sojour]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena                         [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Finally got the joke - Warrior Priestess Tramp  [If]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Revisiting <<AFIN>> (was <<Eternal    Bounds>>)  [c]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Eternal Bounds>>            [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Eternal Bounds>>            [cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] Finally got the joke - Warrior Priestess Tramp  [So]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:38:47 +1300
From: NZJester <nzjester@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Lucy News Item

I didn't see anyone post the URL here to this TV1 News Item
check it out
has a video attached as well
http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,158335-1-7,00.html

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Merry Xenamas &
a Gabby New Year
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:49:33 -0900 (AKST)
From: KTL <fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena

> > > Incidentally, Xena was always so damn sexy, it seems quite amazing
> > > looking back on the series that she had so *few* romantic involvements.
> > > I have a mental impression that she was frequently engaged in such
> > > adventures - and I think she was - it's just that so surprisingly few of
> > > them actually came to anything.
> > >
> > > cr
> >
> > I think that once Xena put herself on the reformation track, she
> > deliberately didn't allow herself to participate in sexual liasons.
> >
> > KT

> Maybe so.
>
> Hmmm.   Doesn't it add up to something like the 'good girls don't, bad girls
> do'   idea that you were implicitly complaining about (IIRC) a little while
> back?    Only that was in respect of Gabs, I think, in Heart of Darkness
> wasn't it?
>
> Or am I mistaken?
>
> cr


Well, of course you are.

No, Xena doesn't eschew sex because good girls don't have sex, she eschews
sex because it is too good a thing for a bad person like her to be
allowed to enjoy.

Now this is what I was always thinking. BUT Iferae then wrote:

Hmmm, not sure I agree with the "didn't deserve them" part.  I do think
fighting, scheming, playing with fire, etc. were a form of sex to Xena,
but not expressions of physical needs she didn't feel she could or ought
to attain otherwise.  I saw her as mostly concerned about maintaining
focus on her quest or specific missions.  I saw her as wanting to avoid
using sex as she had in the past.

If Draco had reformed in SOP, I could've seen her having a "for old times'
sake" tryst with him.  It seems she did "do the do" with Marcus in "Mortal
Beloved" and with Ulysses.  She certainly seemed to be getting cozy with
Antony before those assassins interrupted.  True, she may have felt she
didn't deserve to happily settle down with someone (e.g., that guy with
the three kids or Ulysses) at the expense of her dedication to good deeds.
But I don't see her as feeling she didn't deserve quality physical
relationships if the circumstances were right.
Ife
_________________________________________

Well, what held her back then? Why didn't she jump on Rafe's bones for
example? She definitely had a soft spot for him at the end.

In that one scene she's nonchalantly changing in front of him, (as
you say, Ife, totally focused on the mission--whatever the mission needs,
she's THERE!) and he's kind of gob-smacked and then she makes a smart
heinie remark and he retreats and stops fooling around. And Xena sees this
and then suddenly just kind of deflates. And I see traces of a very
insecure high school kid there, who's berating herself somewhat for going
over a line or being too sure of herself or something. A person who lacks
self-confidence and self-appreciation.

I mean Evil Xena was just so arrogant and SO self-confident. Think about
her "you big jerk" reaction to poor old Odin hanging in the tree. SOOO
full of herself, so shut off from any empathy for others. And as we've
been saying "our" Xena is trying to distance herself from that Xena. And
all her machinations, all her power plays, all her demon joys. And yeah as
Cheryl said too, sex in the past for Xena very seldom ever had anything to
do with love. Though I think it did with Marcus and with Petracles,
despite what she says...grin.

And again, I saw her wanting to make love with Antony as a sign of a
healing of some old wounds in her psyche. (Note: For this post, I'm
assuming a best friends take on the X&G relationship.)


Ife finished:

  Let's face it -- the girl
had a busy schedule of lots of work, with her few hours of  playtime
reserved for Gabrielle.
<g>
 Ife

Oh--so she's too BUSY for casual sexual dalliances eh? (Casual because in
ANY take, Xena sure ain't going to go riding off into the sunset with some
boy.)

Reserved playtime--you make her sound like a yuppie mom. LOL!

KT
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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:28:47 +0000
From: Sojourner <sojourner@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: [chakram-refugees] Finally got the joke - Warrior Priestess Tramp

I really enjoyed watching this one again. But to my surprise I finally 
"got" two joke lines - nice to see I can still be surprised....

Remember this ep is really sex-obsessed, thanks to the virginity-obsession 
of the Hestians, and Leah in particular.

First one:

The harlots down in the brothel are getting a religious education from the 
pwietess

[Singing]: "Onward virgin soldiers, marching us to war."
Leah: "Please-- you have to be supported by your diaphwagm.


Second  one:

Balius: "I don't understand. You told them not to swallow."

Am I reaching here???? Don't make me explain them.....



Sojourner


PS I also heard a neat one in Been There, Done That, when Joxer is accused 
of being a Menos clod. Although Whoosh!  has:

Lykosian: "Menos clod."
Joxer: "Actually, we're not affiliated with Claud."

I heard him say "Actually I'm an unaffiliated clod."
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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:37:22 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena

In a message dated 12/31/02 12:50:08 PM Central Standard Time, 
fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes:

<<  True, she may have felt she
 didn't deserve to happily settle down with someone (e.g., that guy with
 the three kids or Ulysses) at the expense of her dedication to good deeds.
 But I don't see her as feeling she didn't deserve quality physical
 relationships if the circumstances were right.
 Ife
 _________________________________________
 
 Well, what held her back then? Why didn't she jump on Rafe's bones for
 example? She definitely had a soft spot for him at the end.>>

The surprise on her face was such that I don't think she really believed his 
sincerity until she saw that he'd left those coins behind.  Then, it was 
like, "Huh.  Maybe there was more to him than I gave him credit for."   I got 
the feeling she had some regrets, but that it was too late or not enough 
incentive to go running after him.  I liked that it seemed to show a sad 
downside to her distrustful nature and that she recognized it as such.  But 
she might've also recognized that he had his pride, and wouldn't want to show 
any more true affection for someone who'd spurned it.   He still had to save 
face as a con man for his reputation and buddy.
 
 <<In that one scene she's nonchalantly changing in front of him, (as
 you say, Ife, totally focused on the mission--whatever the mission needs,
 she's THERE!) and he's kind of gob-smacked and then she makes a smart
 heinie remark and he retreats and stops fooling around. And Xena sees this
 and then suddenly just kind of deflates. And I see traces of a very
 insecure high school kid there, who's berating herself somewhat for going
 over a line or being too sure of herself or something. A person who lacks
 self-confidence and self-appreciation.>>

I saw something a little different.  I saw her as being playful, maybe a 
little attracted, but still viewing him as a lightweight con artist.  But his 
reaction to her remark makes her realize that he actually cares about her and 
what she thinks of him -- not just views her as a conquest to win a bet.  I 
think she was a little ashamed of her cynicism and sorry she hurt him.   The 
uncertainty on her face, to me, was related more to what I said above -- 
questioning her lack of trust and recognizing how unfair that might be to 
someone who maybe meant well and had a basically good heart.
 
<< I mean Evil Xena was just so arrogant and SO self-confident. Think about
 her "you big jerk" reaction to poor old Odin hanging in the tree. SOOO
 full of herself, so shut off from any empathy for others. And as we've
 been saying "our" Xena is trying to distance herself from that Xena. And
 all her machinations, all her power plays, all her demon joys.>>

Agreed, which is why I liked that moment of self-doubt and vulnerability.  In 
a sense, she acts with Rafe as old Xena might have -- arrogantly certain of 
his insincerity.  "Our" Xena was programming herself to give people a chance, 
the benefit of the doubt.  Open to questioning herself.  But she couldn't do 
that instantly, not with all that history.  I think it's a mistake to see her 
as *either* Evil Xena *or* good Xena.  What I love is that we often saw her 
caught between the two -- sometimes overcoming old habits, sometimes giving 
in to them, but overall trying to learn from her mistakes.  I think we had 
one of those inbeween situations with Rafe.  

<< And again, I saw her wanting to make love with Antony as a sign of a
 healing of some old wounds in her psyche. (Note: For this post, I'm
 assuming a best friends take on the X&G relationship.)>>

LOL!  I'm not as into all that as you.  I saw it purely as, "Damn, this guy 
is getting to me, and if not for the fact that he's so much like the old me, 
I could really fall for him."  Ironically, unlike with Rafe, she wanted very 
much to give Antony every benefit of the doubt she could. If only he would've 
accepted partnership with Octavius, she could've gotten the man and 
accomplished her mission.  But the series wasn't called "Xena:  Warrior 
Empress of Her Enemy Rome."   <g>
 
 
 Ife finished:
 
   Let's face it -- the girl
 had a busy schedule of lots of work, with her few hours of  playtime
 reserved for Gabrielle.
 <g>
  Ife
 
 Oh--so she's too BUSY for casual sexual dalliances eh? (Casual because in
 ANY take, Xena sure ain't going to go riding off into the sunset with some
 boy.)>>

Exactly.  At least, that seems more likely to me than angst about being 
unworthy of casual sexual dalliances.  Like I said before, I just didn't see 
self-disgust keeping her from implied sex with Hercules, Marcus and Ulysses 
or possible sex with Draco, Rafe or Antony.  
 
 <<Reserved playtime--you make her sound like a yuppie mom. LOL!   >>

Heh.  I'm not sure that's inaccurate for the first few seasons with Gabs.  
Hmmm. Then Gabs became a mother, which (because of Solan's murder) gave Xena 
an intensely personal reason for her missions against Dahok & Co.  In S4, X&G 
switched places helping each other find their way.  Then they shared 
motherhood with Eve, which drove both X&G through much of the later seasons.  
You know, I'm starting to agree with you (and Cande?) about Xena as a 
nurturer.  Much more maternal stuff going on than I realized.  <g>

- -- Ife
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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:40:52 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Finally got the joke - Warrior Priestess Tramp

In a message dated 12/31/02 1:30:10 PM Central Standard Time, 
sojourner@paradise.net.nz writes:

<< [Singing]: "Onward virgin soldiers, marching us to war."
 Leah: "Please-- you have to be supported by your diaphwagm.
 
 
 Second  one:
 
 Balius: "I don't understand. You told them not to swallow."
 
 Am I reaching here???? Don't make me explain them.....
  >>

Bwahahahaha!  I missed the first one too.  As for the second, no, I certainly 
won't ask you to explain.  And I'll even leave the "Am I reaching here" 
alone.  Bwahahahaha!  

- -- Ife (who's been influenced too much by KT)
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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:31:39 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Revisiting <<AFIN>> (was <<Eternal    Bounds>>)

On Tuesday 31 December 2002 10:12, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:

>  Why the 'grrrr' ?  I thought I was agreeing with you.   Or a least, not
>  disagrrrreeing.     ;)
>
>
> The "grrrr" was for "but not unprecedented."  I interpreted that as "you
> may be right about all the other situations you mention, but not the one
> we're currently debating."   How 'bout we leave it at our form of
> agrrrement? Unless you want to discuss what constitutes a "precedent"? 
> <beg>
>
> -- Ife (thinking we must sound like two lawyers negotiating a contract)
>
> -- Ife

I agree.   Or whatever.   It's all far too complicated for me to work out.   
The sun's shining and I need to go to the beach.     ;)

cr
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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:22:47 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Eternal Bounds>>

On Tuesday 31 December 2002 08:43, KTL wrote:

> > I'll disagree right back.   The archers got her  i.e. they scored a
> > considerable number of hits, and if they hadn't stopped (presumably
> > because the 'infantry' were too close to her) I think they could probably
> > have killed her with arrow fire alone.    And Xena never got close enough
> > to damage the archers.
>
> There were arrows flying at her in Eternal bonds too. And pikes, and
> swords, probably a few helmets, etc.  But that day she needed to get away.
> So she did.

Now was it you, or someone else, who said they had a big problem with that 
particular battle, in terms of Xena managing to defeat the enemy?   <vbeg>

cr
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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:17:46 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Eternal Bounds>>

On Tuesday 31 December 2002 07:38, KTL wrote:
> > > > @
> > > > @
> > > > @
> > > > @
> > > > @
> > > > @
> > > > @
> > >
> > > (Note:  Been There, Done That has one of my absolute favorite sub-text
> > > lines.  I about died laughing when the young guy in the loft looks down
> > > and addresses Xena as, "Sweet equestrian."
> >
> > Umm, no, I took it that he said 'Sweet Equestria',
>
> Yes he does say "Equestra"
>
>
>  which I assumed to be the
>
> > god of horses or horsey things.
>
> Now why would he be naming Xena as the god of horses or horsey things?

He wasn't talking to Xena, it was an exclamation.

> Nope, he's complimenting her on her riding skills. And I don't think it
> was Argo she was riding around that stable. Poor Gabrielle got
> ridden right into the ground, smooshed right to the bottom of the hay
> stack.
>
> No wonder she wasn't ready to shine so early the next morning...
>
> KT

The mind boggles.    Mine, that is.   Yours obviously doesn't.   <vbeg>

cr
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Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 01:20:14 +0000
From: Sojourner <sojourner@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Finally got the joke - Warrior Priestess Tramp

At 18:40 31/12/2002 -0500, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 12/31/02 1:30:10 PM Central Standard Time,
>sojourner@paradise.net.nz writes:
>
><< [Singing]: "Onward virgin soldiers, marching us to war."
>  Leah: "Please-- you have to be supported by your diaphwagm.
>
>
>  Second  one:
>
>  Balius: "I don't understand. You told them not to swallow."
>
>  Am I reaching here???? Don't make me explain them.....
>   >>
>
>Bwahahahaha!  I missed the first one too.  As for the second, no, I certainly
>won't ask you to explain.  And I'll even leave the "Am I reaching here"
>alone.  Bwahahahaha!
>
>-- Ife (who's been influenced too much by KT)

That is sad, so sad. I believe there is a support group for posters who 
have drifted into the KT orbit and can't break free. But take heart, there 
is hope for you. Just not on Xena lists .....

Sojourner
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End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #359
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