From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #350 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, December 24 2002 Volume 02 : Number 350 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who wrote the scrolls? [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #349 ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] OT: TTT ["kengena" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:10:37 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis again In a message dated 12/22/2002 1:36:54 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I vote for KT's theory - that LL was having trouble keeping a straight face, > > looking at Ilainis's cossie. Athena's crack troops looked liked extras > from > some sci-fi B-movie. A friend of mine called them the Las Vegas Amazons. Now that you mention it, I don't know how the cast kept a straight face through most of the series. I watch the blooper tapes and wonder why there aren't more examples of them laughing hysterically at something or other. I don't think I could've managed to look serious once I'd seen Gab's antlers (in Kindred Spirits?) or Aphodite's get-ups or those headpieces some of the various soldiers wore. But, then, I guess that helped the actors assume truly wry, mystified, disbelieving, surprised, etc. expressions on their faces. Maybe a lot of what we're thinking of as "flirting" (e.g., twinkling eyes, long stares, "My, my" glances) was actually the best way to channel their glee. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 01:10:54 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 12/22/2002 3:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: @ @ @ @ @ @ @ > When Ares did the freeze frame thing, that was a cool effect. But there's > a guy there like 10 feet or so from Xena. Yet when he releases them all, > Xena has time to make a little sling for Eve, get her into it and then > haul her up into the tree and then stand ready to fight. NO WAY!!! I don't > expect a LOT of realism from XWP and most times I can blow things like > this off without any worry--but this was just toooooo dumb to swallow. It > "cheated". Hordes of soldiers after her to build the tension and then an > totally unbelievable escape. Just didn't work for me. > You know, that crazy cozies thread about Alainis and her gals got me thinking about just how much XWP got me to suspend my disbelief. It's interesting to see what one person accepts, which another person finds too unbelievable. I can't begin to count the fight scenes I thought were just as nutty as the one in EB. My personal favorite was how the bad guys' armor meant squat when going up against the good guys. Take helmets. I cracked up every time Xena head-butted somebody with one on, or when Gabs' staff, rocks, Solstice toys, and even fruit could knock somebody out. In "Dirty Half Dozen," Xena effectively punches folks wearing souped-up metal that arrows bounce off. I used to wonder why TPTB gave so much attention to the details of the bad guys' protective weapons and wear, considering how useless that was in a battle with Xena. After awhile, I felt no more dramatic tension in the fact that she faced soldiers armed to the teeth, than if they'd been in their birthday suits (which probably would've been scarier). - - Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:55:32 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 23 December 2002 19:10, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/22/2002 3:31:07 PM Central Standard Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > > > When Ares did the freeze frame thing, that was a cool effect. But there's > > a guy there like 10 feet or so from Xena. Yet when he releases them all, > > Xena has time to make a little sling for Eve, get her into it and then > > haul her up into the tree and then stand ready to fight. NO WAY!!! I > > don't expect a LOT of realism from XWP and most times I can blow things > > like this off without any worry--but this was just toooooo dumb to > > swallow. It "cheated". Hordes of soldiers after her to build the tension > > and then an totally unbelievable escape. Just didn't work for me. > > You know, that crazy cozies thread about Alainis and her gals got me > thinking about just how much XWP got me to suspend my disbelief. It's > interesting to see what one person accepts, which another person finds too > unbelievable. I can't begin to count the fight scenes I thought were just > as nutty as the one in EB. This is intriguing. We all have our own limits to what we'll accept and the boundaries aren't just different in extent, they're different in shape as well. By that I mean that I'll accept things that someone else won't, but they'll accept things that I won't. For example, I can accept Xena's leap onto Cecrops' ship (which I know a number of people can't). OTOH, I can *never* accept the trick where Xena (or Gabs, I think?) swings round a spear stuck in the ground, kicking a circle of ambushers (and not because there's no way the ambushers would conveniently stand round in a circle, though of course they wouldn't, but there's no way a spear stuck in the ground would take the strain. Must be my engineering training :) On the other hand, things like Xena's 'energy chakrams' at the end of Between the Lines, I'm quite happy with - I guess because they're magic, and therefore the laws of mechanics don't apply. And talking of the chacky, I was very disconcerted by some of its longer flights, till in Coming Home it showed an ability to loiter offscreen for five minutes and still hit its target - that's when I figured it too was 'magic', after which it ceased to worry me. > My personal favorite was how the bad guys' armor meant squat when going up > against the good guys. Take helmets. I cracked up every time Xena > head-butted somebody with one on, Me too. I keep thinking, why doesn't she get a horrendous headache? > or when Gabs' staff, rocks, Solstice > toys, and even fruit could knock somebody out. In "Dirty Half Dozen," > Xena effectively punches folks wearing souped-up metal that arrows bounce > off. Another 'ouch' for me - those spears and arrows they shot into the stone castle walls for Xena to climb up. It does *not* work that way.... it's not even as if they jammed in the cracks, which I could have accepted. > I used to wonder why TPTB gave so much attention to the details of > the bad guys' protective weapons and wear, considering how useless that was > in a battle with Xena. After awhile, I felt no more dramatic tension in > the fact that she faced soldiers armed to the teeth, than if they'd been in > their birthday suits (which probably would've been scarier). It would certainly have got itself censored ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:12:42 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 23 December 2002 10:30, KTL wrote: > On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > @ > > @ > > @ > > @@ > > > > > > When Ares did the freeze frame thing, that was a cool effect. Super cool. Knocking the soldier's sword out of his hand, that was the perfect final touch. > But there's > a guy there like 10 feet or so from Xena. Yet when he releases them all, > Xena has time to make a little sling for Eve, get her into it and then > haul her up into the tree and then stand ready to fight. NO WAY!!! I don't > expect a LOT of realism from XWP and most times I can blow things like > this off without any worry--but this was just toooooo dumb to swallow. It > "cheated". Hordes of soldiers after her to build the tension and then an > totally unbelievable escape. Just didn't work for me. Got me the same way. But then, as soon as XWP starts with armies and logistics, it runs into trouble. A Good Day - one (untrained) Greek village can effectively make a difference in the battle between Caesar and Pompey's legions? No way, not even if C and P's armies did knock themselves out first. Amphipolis Under Siege - one town resisting the combined attack of Athena's armies, plus a couple of other armies whose identities I forget now.... it isn't even as if the town had a proper defensive wall (or if it did, the defenders chose to fight outside it, for no good reason). > The hot smooching, nipple biting sequences with Ares were very > surprising--and I thought the "Gotcha!" at the end when Xena gasped awake > and we realized it was just a dream was as hilarious and as "D'oh!" making > as when the back of Xena's head during her lean towards Gabrielle in The > Quest rotated into being the back of Autolycus' head by the end of the > liplock. Got me both times... Xena trying to convince herself that 'it was just a dream' was a classic bit of comic acting by LL. > > Obviously Gabrielle who has been traveling for 5 years with Xena is > > unable to tell north (this of coursed has been known to happen to > > experienced woodsmen in heavily forested areas but this doesn't seem to > > be the case here - it appears it is plot device ). > > I almost wonder if it wasn't an in joke on Renee--being a North American > makes having the sun in the North most of the day rather confusing when > trying to figure out "which way is North?". Okay, so how *do* you tell which way is North (if the sun's behind clouds)? Maybe Xena taught her, maybe not, it was never explicitly shown. Has Gabby ever in any other ep, needed to know which way was North? In fact, has it ever been shown that Gabby was good at route-finding and all those Girl Scout things? Having a 'feel' for the lie of the land is different, but 'North' is really a rather artificial concept, actually rather more important to us these days if we're using maps. IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:56:44 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis again On Monday 23 December 2002 19:10, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/22/2002 1:36:54 AM Central Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > I vote for KT's theory - that LL was having trouble keeping a straight > > face, > > > looking at Ilainis's cossie. Athena's crack troops looked liked extras > > from > > some sci-fi B-movie. > > A friend of mine called them the Las Vegas Amazons. Now that you mention > it, I don't know how the cast kept a straight face through most of the > series. I watch the blooper tapes and wonder why there aren't more > examples of them laughing hysterically at something or other. I don't > think I could've managed to look serious once I'd seen Gab's antlers (in > Kindred Spirits?) or Aphodite's get-ups or those headpieces some of the > various soldiers wore. But, then, I guess that helped the actors assume > truly wry, mystified, disbelieving, surprised, etc. expressions on their > faces. Maybe a lot of what we're thinking of as "flirting" (e.g., > twinkling eyes, long stares, "My, my" glances) was actually the best way to > channel their glee. > > -- Ife Or the only way to stop themselves from bursting out laughing.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:25:45 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who wrote the scrolls? Ife wrote: > Heck, if we're going to consider David, why not that old guy in the Ring > trilogy, who had that tapestry with Xena as a Valkyrie? He seemed to > know quite a bit about her activities during that period. You know, that's very true. I wonder who he was too. How he knew about her. And why was that scroll in the center of town? Was he selling it? Or possibly if someone commissioned it, was that person displaying it and that old guy was on guard? Interessssssting.... Given the oral histories prevalent then, quite a few folks could've contributed their recollections to the scrolls or written some themselves. Even Callisto might've kept a diary during her prison time. > > oh, i'd have paid to read that! wonder if they let her have quill and > scroll. > > md Callisto's diary: Today, one of the guards came in by himself to try to get me to "have a little fun with me, baby". Looking at his dead body lying on the floor, I realized that if I skinned him I could make some parchment and use his blood as ink and so write down my tumultuous thoughts. I was pondering on what to use to write with when a rat ran by. I grabbed him, tied him up tightly with the guards boot laces and pulled out his little claws, sloooowly, one by one to use as quill tips. I'm all set now. I hate Xena. She must be destoyed. _______________________________________________ Today I pulled the wings off some flies who were buzzing around the dead guard's head that I was using to sit on. Then I ate the fly bodies, crunching them delicately between my pearly white teeth. I hate Xena. She must be destroyed. __________________________________________________ Today a woman named Najara came to show me the light. I showed her the light by ripping off the top of her skull. "There--you like it? You LIKE the light! THERE! HAVE SOME LIGHT!!! I hate Xena. She must be destroyed. ____________________________________________________ Not much happening today. I hate Xena. She must be destroyed. ____________________________________________________ Some guy popped into my cell out of thin air today. He was very excitable and kept babbling in a strange tongue. Kept pointing to himself and saying something that sounded like, "Ambrosebierce". Doesn't sound very Greek to me. He kept repeating what sounded like "Mex-ee-ko" "ancient aaztek ahhrts", "mumbo jumbo rites" and then he would put his arms out and gesture around the cell like, "Where the Tartarus is this?!" He was not a very strong opponent, took him out with nothing but a dulled rat claw. He had some very fine parchment in his strange looking outer clothing, but it had all these strange markings all over it so it's unusable. BUT, he has very fine, uncalloused and fair skin. It will make fine enough parchment for my diary. I hate Xena. She must be destroyed. ________________________________________________ KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:44:13 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" > " I assumed that this was 'some time later' and Eve had travelled overseas, tracked by Xena and Gabs. Is there any evidence that this isn't so? Admittedly, Eve has plenty of scratches on her face still - are they from the fight with Xena?" You are probably right since even the gods now see her as "babbling idiot" so some time has passed. However one does wonder how someone as distraught as Eve is managed to find passage on a ship so she could wander the desert. You can wander the Italian countryside much more easily. > " I *knew* it was going to be a good ep when I saw that scene on Olympus. > I loved the sniffy look Alecto gave Ares. And that lovely little exchange > between Aphrodite and Athena: > APHRODITE (whispers) Can we leave the bard out of this? > ATHENA Do you have a soft spot for Gabrielle? > APHRODITE (defensively) She's my friend. > ATHENA Oh-h-h-h, well. Then don't watch." Alecto is a high point for me. She is always so crazed that she is fun to watch. > > > "Actually, I thought that when the woman asked if that was Xena, she was > suddenly going to attack them on the grounds that Xena had killed her family > long ago yadda yadda.... " I wondered about that too but it was nice to meet someone who actually admires Xena and sees her as a hero and not a villain. So actually Xena now has a repretation as hero after 25 years and is no longer thought of as a warlord. " I really get squeamish about these Biblical parallels... but more of that later..." Yeah after the Hindu thing I got nervous about the Christian parralls too. That was one the reasons I never referred to the Baptist as John the Baptist (that's what is called on the Whoosh site) besides the fact his name is never mentioned. I thought it was too close to the Bible. " EVE I should die for my deeds. BAPTIST You're right. [I thought - here it comes... ] ... You must die [and this is where I was *sure* he was going to pull out a knife} .... to the things of the flesh (puts water on her head) and be reborn (puts water on her head) to the way of love. [Waaah! Renpics - yah got me fair and square with that one, you bastards! Love it! :)" I never thought of him as an assasin but you are right the set-up is there. " [And I thought, 'Aaaaagh! Oh my gods, Xena isn't gonna be baptised is she? I can't stand this!' And ya know what, they got me *again*! Do I love those tricky sons of bacchae! 8-)" Nope Xena will never be baptised since she has a distrust of all religions. She protects the Eligians becasue she liked Eli and his followers are pretty defenseless. Actually there was good article about Eve and Xena in Spectrum which basically states that Eve represents the idea that we are saved by faith alone. While Xena represents the idea that we are saved by our deeds - faith is not enough. > > > " Actually Gabby tosses the chacky to Xena who neatly catches it. Nice little bit of byplay. Every moment in this ep is good." Yep that was good. > > > Xena warns > > the remaining gods not follow (nice bit where she blows on her chakram like > > a gunfighter blows on his gun) and she and her party leave. > > " Well, almost every moment is good. Virgil inspires me the same way Perdycorpse does. Anyone notice a certain similarity in appearance between Virg and Perdy?" Well I didn't mention this but Virgil's hug when saying good-by to Gabby seemed more like he was gropping her than a tender farewell to a friend. Then there was the surprising kissing noises he was making to the horse but seemed to be directed at Gabby. > > > > " I incline to the idea that Joxer and Hope are both fabrications of the Furies. I seem to remember noticing that Alecto was saying the words a moment before 'Hope' said them. This time round I couldn't spot that, but I think that was the implication." Oh yes both Joxer and Hope are creations by the Furies. They got into Gabby's head and found the two people she feels most guilty about. Joxer if he were a ghost would never accuse Gabby of letting him be killed. As for Hope - yeah she would have acted just like she did. > > "Well, as filmed, I thought that stood up perfectly well. (I *know* I'm a non-Gabfan, and you all know that too , but leaving that aside so far as I can - ) Xena rushes in, sees Gabs stab Eve (and this was a really determined attack on Gabs' part, with obviously homicidal intent) and instantly throws the chacky at Gabs. I think it's an instinctive reaction. If it had been the other way round, and Xena had been surprised by Gabs in the act of killing Gabs' sister Lila, I would not blame Gabby for throwing something sharp and deadly at Xena." Actually I was very disturbed by the number of people who wrote that Xena should have put Gabby ahead of Eve. _ Personally found it shocking but perhaps this explains why so many people seem to stand around while their lovers or spouses beat their kids. There was a poll recently that a rather large percentage of people would put their spouses ahead of their children which surprised me. Now no mention was made if the children were grown or not. I saw Xena's actions as those of any mother who sees her child being hurt by another. "ATHENA There's no need for you to be hurt as well Xena. Give us your daughter. It's true you can kill gods but at four-to- one, it's not great odds. XENA Not for you." And Xena is very right! > > " Deimos is next he throws a fireball at Xena who ducks and the tavern blows and a large wagon falls on Deimos (this is a bit confusing since I never could figure out why a wagon would be in a tavern but I think it must have been an exhibit - the wagon from Death In The Eye). "If so, Joxer must have done some major 'restoration' on it, because it ended up in burning pieces all over the beach." Oh I forgot about that. Then why is there a wagon in the Tavern? > > > "XENA Then take us to Olympus. APHRODITE Why? XENA I want to offer them a deal. APHRODITE And you'll kill them if they don't accept? > I thought that was convincingly bitter." Yes Aphrodite is bitter but she is always a good person despite her pretense of shallowness. I think she actually likes Gabrielle and Xena more than the family who is so contempuous of her. > > " Athena's expression when she looks at Ares is classic - pitying and condescending, as if to say 'what can you expect from my idiot brother?'" Yes Athena and Ares are terrific as rival syblings. I have often thought that one of the reasons Ares cures Eve and Gabrielle is that he just couldn't stand the thought of sharing power with Athena so he throws in with the mortals. > "Xena makes her offer to Athena - cure Eve and Gabrielle and Xena will leave Olympus in peace. No other gods have to die but Athena seeing Artemis sneaking up says no. Artemis fires her arrows, Xena catches them and kills Atremis with them. Athena now charges Xena and they fight viciously. Eve and Gabrielle are fading fast and indeed Eve soon dies of her wounds and when Xena finally stabs Athena nothing happens. > ' And again, Athena's expression when she realises she can't feel a thing is > beautifully done. " There's another piece of great byplay here. In the battle with Athena Xena bangs her head against Athena's when Athena goes down Xena sort of rolls her eyes and shakes her head as if she forgot about Athena's little gold helmet and she hurt head on the little hat. > "I have to say that I don't like Athena - she's far too smugly superior - but she's excellently acted." Athena is wonderful - she is so patronizing that she can't realize that someone may have a better idea than her. It is her stubboness that gets most of the gods killed. She won't listen to Aphrodite when she begs her to leave Gabrielle alone never once considering that Aphrodite might actually try to save her friend. She never listens to Ares and again underestimates his attachment to Xena and his antipathy to her. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:55:34 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #349 > Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:02:05 -0900 (AKST) > From: KTL > Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> " Hmmmmm. That would have been interesting. But I think it would have worked against Xena being meant to be a warrior, which is what season four validated. It would have made her have to consider to choose being hidden away safely with Eve over fighting for the greater good--a choice that didn't enter into the mix until Eve was a (damaged) adult. > And I just LOVED it that Rob and Lucy gave us first a pregnant action adventure hero and then a warrior momma." Yes it was an interesting choice to go with the pregnancy. It was also interesting to see the pregnant Xena carry on her career with out letting up. It was also a hoot to watch a warrior mom at work but as you said I don't tink it would have worked for very long. Even Xena couldn't hold the gods for Eve's entire childhood although she could simply moved to teh Amazons. But then what. She and Gabby get a little home with Eve - move Cyrene in while they fight assorted northern hooligans. However it would been an interesting idea to see a warrior and mom. When Hercules first came on as movies he was married with children and I thought than was an interesting concept. A super hero that was a loving family man, of course that didn't last long and I was disappointed that the idea was dropped. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:38:43 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who wrote the scrolls? On Tuesday 24 December 2002 09:25, KTL wrote: > Callisto's diary: > (snipped for space) > I hate Xena. She must be destroyed. > > ________________________________________________ > > > KT Very interesting. I approve. All except the poor rat, that was quite unnecessarily cruel. :( cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:18:43 -0600 From: "kengena" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: TTT I can't believe no one has posted anything about The Two Towers yet! Saw it Thursday night, and loved it. Caesar, Julius Caesar aka Karl Urban aka Eomer) got to ride into Helm's Deep with swords rattling and armor flashing--gotta love it. He had quite a nice part, too. We also got the extended DVD of FotR. Marton Csokas comes off soooo much better in the extended version. He has more lines, they are more important, and they contribute a lot to the story. I'm really sorry they cut all his lines but one for the theater release. So who wants to see Xena and Aragorn go head to head? Who would win? Gena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #350 **************************************