From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #348 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Sunday, December 22 2002 Volume 02 : Number 348 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> [cr ] [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis Again ["Cheryl Ande" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> Ahhhh and now back to this thread. I'm gaining, I tell ya, I'm gaining... > > I was a bit confused there too by the Joxer-wrote-it thing. But now it's > clear. Jack Kleinmann or whatever his name was, took off with "Gabrielle's" > scrolls, stowed them in his attic in Hoboken where his grandson Ted Raimi > found them and relayed the tales to Rob Tapert. So Ted Raimi wrote the Xena > Scrolls. Which explains *alot*. LOL! > >So that one ep is most definitely not from a Gabrielle scroll. Another > >non-gab scroll is the story told in the Between the Lines ep, which starts > >off with a saying about Karma superimposed on the screen. This is > >identified as being from the "Blue Scroll -- Author unknown". So there's > >at least these and the Clones eps AND Deja Vu and Soul Possession that are > >not Gab scrolls. Hmmm. More than I realized. > > Who does everyone think the authors of Xena's scrolls - the scrolls that give > us the story of Xena - are? My guesses are: > > 1. Gabrielle > 2. Joxer > 3. Virgil > 4. David > 5. Xena herself > > I'm sure anyone Xena met could have written something about her, but those are > the ones I guess either said they did or that they would or wanted to. > > S. > > Ooooo, interesting choices. Of course Gabrielle wrote most of them. But as you say, anyone who met Xena might well have been inspired to write something about her and how she affected their life. And Joxer could well have written one or two--as HawkFalco said--who the Tartarus ELSE whould have written those Joxer heavy ones? However, I disagree with this example from HawkFalco's post on the horribleness of one of Joxer's proported scrolls: "And down right lies (Gabrielle can't cook but Joxer is an educated chef)." Now nowhere in the eps does it ever claim that Gabrielle is a GOOD cook. Yes, we know she's the cook because Xena "don't cook", we see Gabrielle cooking, but nobody EVER says, "Hey, great meal!" In fact, in the Convert, there is a definite subtle dissing of the meal Gabrielle prepares. Joxer: I HATE this. Gabrielle: I've cooked better. Xena: You said it. Joxer: Not the food. This thing with Armand. And yes, we do indeed see Xena asking Gabrielle to "Make those little dumplings with the red stuff inside." However, does Xena EVER say she's going to eat those? Nope. For all we know, she could be intending to use them with a sling to bring down small game for the pot. Gabrielle being a good cook is pure fanfic derived, not show derived. I like the thought of Virgil writing some of the scrolls. Certainly he was part of Xena's story and even doubly involved with them from being Joxer's son and having spent his life hearing about the great deeds of Joxer and his two sidekicks, Xena and Gabrielle. And the Aeneid shows that he sure was attracted to writing action adventure stories. David. Hmmmmmmmm. I think David had his mind too much on his god to write about much else. And just who bowlderized the story of Xena, David and Goliath and wrote out the grrl? Huh? Not sure I trust that boy. Xena. I sure don't see Xena writing glorification of her exploits. She's not proud of herself (of her skills, yes, of her character, no) and certainly doesn't see herself worthy of being touted as a hero or a do-gooder. However, she MAY have slipped in a few of those double entendres in the scrolls, (can't you just see her at night, sitting at the campfire and snorting to herself as she adds a little spice to some of Gabrielle's stories? Snickering as she imagines just how ticked off Gabrielle will be when she finds out that Xena was messing with her scrolls again?) In fact she might have had the inclination to write some of the comedies. BUT I doubt she ever would have the patience to sit down and do so. She's really a woman of action rather than a paper and pen scholar. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:06:58 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again In a message dated 12/20/2002 12:33:59 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I see > > KT's point, in that I think Xena "flirted" in the sense of "You want me? > > Come get me." Callisto and Athena often looked with desire at their > > unattainable quarry, but no, I don't think Xena felt the same desire for > > them. > > > > -- Ife > > Oh dear. I seem to be making a lot of 'me too' posts lately. :( > > But, for the record, I agree with you almost completely. When it comes to seduction, we "weaker sex" folks know a thing or two. That's what made Xena such a "compleat" warrior to me. Mind you, I liked that Lucy and Co. didn't make it silly and superficial. The elements of power, intrigue and artful intelligence were integral to Xena's seductiveness and made it a fitting part of her arsenal. It added a dimension to "flirting" -- whether Xena was on the offensive (as in her battle of wills with Cally/Athena) or defensive (as when she had to resist her attraction to Ares/Antony). I think the tension was heightened because in almost every case, Xena's notable opponents were attracted to her, even when she wasn't attracted to them. IOW, the sparks weren't just flying when their weapons crossed. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:07:06 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena In a message dated 12/20/2002 10:22:51 AM Central Standard Time, sojourner@paradise.net.nz writes: > I do not agree that X was just being flirty though. I think there is a > strong > connection between X's sexual self and her being a warrior. She is fully > alive > when fighting - it is her most natural state. (Not saying she is a well- > rounded > individual who is in touch with her feelings, mind). But she brings sexual > energy > and awareness to many of her fights. > > I also reckon she uses it to engage and distract her opponents. "Ya wanna > fight > me or f*** me? Either way baby, I WIN!" With Callisto, for sure, I was > always > waiting for her to throw her sword to the ground and leap on Xena and ravish > her. > Rob is clearly homophobic because he didn't let that scenario develop. ( > Warning: > this is an emoticon-free email. You gotta spot irony all by yourself with me. > ) > > Fanfic, by allowing the expression of X&G's sexual relationship, certainly > explores this theme more than the show. > Hmmm, not sure about your "irony" or opinion about RT, but just in case .... I gotta say that I thought it was highly effective as it was. Hudson was certainly allowed (if not encouraged) to give that impression, but no one -- man or woman -- was allowed to "leap" on Xena, certainly not against Xena's will. I think the quality of seduction we've been talking about -- that battle lust "sexual energy" between warrior types -- may be an element in, but is not the defining aspect of, the loving relationship that usually gets explored in fanfic between X&G (excluding Conqueror stories). However, I have seen fanfic where Xena is attracted to a female warrior like herself. We saw consensual (implied or aborted) jumping of bones with male warriors (e.g., Marcus, Ulysses, Antony) on TV, but not between Xena and a female warrior she respected. Problem is, if we had, it might have seemed more of a betrayal of Gabrielle, than the male liaisons which could be more easily dismissed as dalliances. Whatever Xena felt for Lao Ma, Alti's little temptress or Akemi, Gabrielle still seemed to be the "one and only woman" in a purely romantic way. IOW, I can understand judgments made about why bone jumping wasn't shown more "obviously" between X&G, but I'm not sure those arguments would apply if we're talking Xena and some other female warrior -- especially Callisto. My apologies if I misread you and went off on a completely different tangent. However you did make me think about something I might not have minded seeing - -- Xena "flirting" with a worthy female warrior she was actually attracted to. Now I see one reason why that might not have been such a good idea after all -- at least in terms of the X&G relationship. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 21:50:08 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Saturday 21 December 2002 05:22, sojourner@paradise.net.nz wrote: > > I also reckon she uses it to engage and distract her opponents. "Ya wanna > fight me or f*** me? Either way baby, I WIN!" With Callisto, for sure, I > was always waiting for her to throw her sword to the ground and leap on > Xena and ravish her. I think there might have been... ummm, difficulties with that. Xena is definitely taller and heavier than Callisto. I think Callisto might have bounced. > Rob is clearly homophobic because he didn't let that > scenario develop. (Warning: this is an emoticon-free email. You gotta spot > irony all by yourself with me.) Don't worry. Knowing you, the irony is obvious. (Coming from some other fans, now...... :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:01:37 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Saturday 21 December 2002 07:33, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 05:22:10 +1300 (NZDT) sojourner@paradise.net.nz wrote: > = > > "I also reckon she uses it to engage and > distract her opponents. "Ya wanna fight > me or f*** me? Either way baby, I WIN!" With > Callisto, for sure, I was always waiting for her to throw her sword to the > ground and leap on Xena and ravish her. Rob is clearly homophobic because > he didn't let that scenario develop. (Warning: this is an emoticon-free > email. You gotta spot irony all by yourself with me.)" > > Certainly I agree that Xena's fighting has a very sexual component to it > and there is orgasmic joy to her battles. I also agree that Callisto has a > sexual fascination with Xena and an odd admiration for her. In all > probalility its that sex and death connection that gets to Callisto. She > has apparently rejected sex (TROC) yet there is a physical attraction to > Xena. It is also somewhat ironic that Callisto who rejected love as trick > to make people reproduce finally does reproduce (Eve) but in a nonsexual > way and with Xena. I have so idea what that means. Maybe it just 'means' that it seemed like a good idea to the writers at the time? ;-) Interesting point you've brought up there, about the irony. But as for any hidden meaning, or message, I tend to think that the only meanings one can reliably read into Xena are the obvious ones - that killing people is (usually) bad, that keeping ones promises is (usually) good, yadda yadda.... Anything deeper than that is usually just speculation (IMO) and says more about the person propounding the theory than the series. > > "Just a question about Ares - sex and struggle > seemed to go together for X & A. Did fight scenes between the two end up > with the "kiss her/him, you fool!"? No wonder X was suspicious of the > softer "I love you" from Ares. Not part of the rules....." > > I think the struggle with Ares is an vital part of Xena's relationship with > him. She really can't relate to him except through conflict. To her his > "I love you" is only a trick that is part of their continual conflict. > Even when they get together (TSOA) Xena is rather rough with the guy. > > CherylA Agreed. I think this is why I *love* the Xena-Ares relationship, I wouldn't mind seeing them get it on once or twice, but in no way would it be a stable happy domestic scene. If it was, it'd be boring. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:52:09 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Saturday 21 December 2002 20:07, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > We saw consensual (implied or aborted) jumping of bones with male warriors > (e.g., Marcus, Ulysses, Antony) on TV, but not between Xena and a female > warrior she respected. Problem is, if we had, it might have seemed more of > a betrayal of Gabrielle, than the male liaisons which could be more easily > dismissed as dalliances. Whatever Xena felt for Lao Ma, Alti's little > temptress or Akemi, Gabrielle still seemed to be the "one and only woman" > in a purely romantic way. I think you have a point there. W.r.t. Akemi for example, look at the flak that was generated in some circles who took the view that, in staying dead, Xena was somehow 'choosing' Akemi over Gabrielle. (Not, IMO, a valid proposition). If it had been made explicit - or even implicit - that Xena and Akemi were having it off in the past (quite aside from the difference in their ages) - I imagine the protest would have been even louder, were that possible ;) Not being a subtexter, I personally never worried who Xena - umm, dallied with. (She could have had every guest star of the week if it suited her, so far as I'm concerned :) I regard Xena and Gabs as best friends, and best friends do not have to be romantically linked. Herc and Iolaus were just as loyal as Xena and Gabs, but of course they were explicitly not romantically associated and were free to form other romantic attachments. But of course, if Xena and Gabs *were* a couple, then Xena straying in the direction of female company would have been even more pointed than her attraction to various males. Incidentally, Xena was always so damn sexy, it seems quite amazing looking back on the series that she had so *few* romantic involvements. I have a mental impression that she was frequently engaged in such adventures - and I think she was - it's just that so surprisingly few of them actually came to anything. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:55:30 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Saturday 21 December 2002 16:07, KTL wrote: > > > Hmmm. I saw much more of that from Cally and Alainis. > > Oh, I saw it from Callisto all the time. Callisto acted like a spoiled > little brat a lot when confronting Xena. (And I thought that Adrienne did > an astounding job of catching this quality of Callisto's in Livia, when > she destroyed her bedroom because she was p*ssed over Xena and Ares at the > ball. She was SOOOOO Hudson as Callisto at times in that ep.) > > And Xena just played along with Callisto's fascination/hate obsession > towards Xena so well. I remember Xena pouting out something > like, "Well, you never wrote" with this little girl coyness when Callisto > said something like, "Long time no see." DAMN! I HATE not having my tapes > with me!!!!! I THINK that scene is from Necessary Evil? When she goes > down the pit to get Callisto. > Why don't you just put all the transcripts on a 3 1/2" floppy disk and take it with you? Hang on, what am I saying? Your computer has a hard drive doesn't it? Put them on that! Anyway, no, I checked and it wasn't ANE. I thought Maternal Instincts but it isn't that either. Found it - Return of Callisto. Callisto's army attack a village. Callisto is about to kill a man, when the chakram disarms her. Xena catches it. CALLISTO I've missed you, Xena. XENA You never wrote. (Thanks to Xena Torres's transcripts) > Who knows--Lucy may have been highly amused at the dumb outfits they put > those guys into and the mascara on Alainis. She was just so GIRLY!!!!! > Speaking of which, there's a blooper bit that shows that--the actress is > using her little finger to fix her eye make-up just before she stomps down > into a fighting stance. Perhaps Lucy was responding to this attitude on > her part? > > But it's definitely there, each time she gets into a stand-off with her. > > KT I did enjoy the fight scenes in AUS. And (IMO) Ilainis was never going to be in Xena's class. She just didn't have what it takes. And Xena could tell that. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:13:04 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> On Saturday 21 December 2002 19:24, KTL wrote: > > And Joxer could well have written one or two--as HawkFalco said--who the > Tartarus ELSE whould have written those Joxer heavy ones? However, I > disagree with this example from HawkFalco's post on the horribleness of > one of Joxer's proported scrolls: > > "And down right lies (Gabrielle can't cook but Joxer is an educated > chef)." I'll address the Joxer thing: He may well be an educated chef. Notice how his cooking in ISAIH laid the entire army low. Well, in order to get ill, they first had to *eat* the stuff - which certainly indicates that Joxer knew how to make food taste all right. In fact one could argue that only a chef who knew what he was doing, could know so well what to do 'wrong'. A cook who had no clues, wouldn't be able to reliably make the army sick. > Now nowhere in the eps does it ever claim that Gabrielle is a GOOD cook. > Yes, we know she's the cook because Xena "don't cook", we see Gabrielle > cooking, but nobody EVER says, "Hey, great meal!" In fact, in the Convert, > there is a definite subtle dissing of the meal Gabrielle prepares. > > Joxer: I HATE this. > Gabrielle: I've cooked better. > Xena: You said it. > Joxer: Not the food. This thing with Armand. > > And yes, we do indeed see Xena asking Gabrielle to "Make those little > dumplings with the red stuff inside." However, does Xena EVER say she's > going to eat those? Nope. For all we know, she could be intending to use > them with a sling to bring down small game for the pot. ROTFL! KT strikes again! Personally, *I* think she was going to use them as fish poison. ;) But in all seriousness, that's fairly flimsy evidence to judge Gabrielle's cooking abilties on. We know she has unfortunate experiences with nutbread. It could be that those little dumplings are Gabby's only really edible recipe. Xena can't cook (or won't cook - see Unchained Heart) so it's not as if there's much competition. > Gabrielle being a good cook is pure fanfic derived, not show derived. Yep, like so many other things. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:24:25 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis again KTL wrote: "Who knows--Lucy may have been highly amused at the dumb outfits they put those guys into and the mascara on Alainis. She was just so GIRLY!!!!! Speaking of which, there's a blooper bit that shows that--the actress is using her little finger to fix her eye make-up just before she stomps down into a fighting stance. Perhaps Lucy was responding to this attitude on her part?" Who says that was blooper? Just because your one of Athena's soldiers doesn't mean you can't have a taste for a nice bit of eye-liner. You know you're going out, meeting lots of new people - a girl just wants to look her best. Afterall didn't Athena just spring for those nifty outfits and cute hats. Just because you're out slaughting babies doesn't mean you have to let yourself go. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:15:34 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Xena on DVD Well I just got my Xena DVDs I have just briefly looked at them. I have sort of a mixed bag of a review. the transfer to DVD is pretty good - color and sound seems very good the only problem is not PD's fault. The first and second season of Xena was filmed on 16 mm film which is grainy (seems to have been a mixed budget and artistic decision on TPTB's part) so the DVD's sometimes have a grainy look about them. Also no closed captioning which I think I will write to someone about. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 21:43:52 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: Amphipolis Again KTL wrote: "Yes. I've never seen heat between X&G. Huge doses of love, protection, willingness to die for each other, etc, but almost never sexual heat. EXCEPT for Heart of Darkness. When Gab gets that little spot of evil and suddenly for once SHOWS being seriously horny instead of just casually mentioning it as she has in the past. .... But I have to admit, I HATE it that a woman feeling lustful is due to her feeling "evil" encroaching in her heart." I think the reason there isn't more overt sexual tension between Gabrielle and Xena (aside from the PG rating) is that Xena sees Gabrielle very different than she does the people she is overtly sexual with. For Xena, Gabrielle represents purity and a spiritual love - as she says Gabrielle is the one good thing in her live. Now Xena's sexual adventures have always been rather negative - she has used sex to manipulate or even to destroy, it has seldom been an expression of positive love. So along comes Gabrielle whom she does love but I think she would be a little hesitant to show her sexual feelings since they may have a negative connotation for Xena. As for Gabrielle she hasn't had a whole lot of experience being sexual at all (expect being possessed by demons). Now in Heart of Darkness it isn't so much that they are "evil" as that the inhibitions they have placed upon themselves have fallen away they are freer to express themselves sexually. Thus you not only have Xena and Gabrielle flirting but Gabby lusting after Virgil - they no longer are concerned about the consequences of sexual conduct but simply revealing in the feelings. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #348 **************************************