From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #347 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, December 21 2002 Volume 02 : Number 347 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] fake Xena tattoos poll ["H.J.J. Hewitt" ] [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [sojourner@paradise.net.nz] Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:35:30 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 19 December 2002 04:32, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 21:48:10 +1300 cr wrote: > > > "I thought that was out of character for Ares. > He isn't normally that ruthless where Xena is concerned. I just couldn't > see it." > > No I think was very frustrated with Xena - he had all the cards stacked for > him - he had Eve and the knowlege of who she actually is but still Xena > wouldn't submit. Also I think he's a littled ticked off that he mourned > her for years and here she wasn't even dead - just another trick which went > wrong. Hmmm, and his frustration made him go further than he normally would? Yeah, possibly. > " Errrm, can we say 'screw-up'? I agree, it > does seem very naive, considering Gabby's part in A&C and LDITE...." > > Yes I could see a season 3 or 4 Gabby thinking she could talk Eve into > reforming when Xena couldn't but not a season 5 Gabby. She seems more > realistic and maybe a bit more cynical about people. Although I could > see her wanting to spare Xena the pain of killing her daughter I doubt if > she thought she could talk love and kindness into Livia, it might have made > more sense if she also had a plan to kill Livia herself if she couldn't see > reason. That would have lead nicely into Motherhood so that Gabby's sai > attack seems more logical in that the Fiuries merely tap into an idea that > Gabby already had. > > CherylA Yes, agreed again. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:49:27 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Friday 20 December 2002 05:44, mirrordrum wrote: > > > > > > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other > > > up.Whoooo-eeee! > > > Hmmm. I saw much more of that from Cally and Alainis. I never saw Xena > > as flirting, so much as appreciating the seductiveness and sensuality, > > getting > > revved up for a good fight. Now, if you mean she *used* her powers of > > seduction and sensuality on C&A (but wasn't actually attracted like > > them), I > > can agree with your use of flirting. (I know -- "picky," "picky.") > > no, i think it's an interesting distinction and i'm not sure it doesn't > apply to both men and women with xena. draco comes to mind right away as > does marcus. there's just a certain zing there. and rafe. and certainly > antony, cjc and ares. lucifer was a little harder to figure. certainly she > used him. whether she actually felt something was a bit unclear. possibly > just basic lust. Lucifer was just a bit too pretty, I think. And egocentric. > i don't think there's a question with the men that she feels something. > she's a happening kind of gal, she's been around the block any number of > times and she certainly isn't averse to getting it on, one way or another. > > i think you're right that we're to see her as always having the upper hand. > she has the ability to control and hence use her reactions as well as her > considerable skills with men--or male characters (ares and lucifer not > being men, strictly speaking). I think Ares and Lucifer might resent the colloquial implications of that ;-) But I agree with your point - a good example is in the cave in Succession, where she knew just exactly what Ares would do (and Mavican didn't have a clue....) I love that brief scene. > well, i think that's all i have to say about *that*! nice to be back. what > fun. > > md Nice to see you back. And it's so nice to see a thoughtful discussion between people, such as we get on this list, compared with the superficial half-thought-out rants that happen on some others. (Not that I'm not guilty of same on occasion myself.... ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:38:38 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Friday 20 December 2002 05:14, mirrordrum wrote: (Xena and Ilainis) > admittedly, i'd probably have dismissed flirting if it were there b/c i > wouldn't have approved of the flirtee, but i just didn't see it. and of > course nobody but *no*body tops callisto in that department in my opinion. > they have a much hotter chemistry to me than xena and gab. well, just very > different. more like xena and ares cause there's that badass thing going. Yessss! I'll subscribe to that theory! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:56:09 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Friday 20 December 2002 06:53, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > I don't think we're disagreeing. I used "seduction" and "sensuality" > because I think of them as as more complex than "sex." To me, Xena, > Callisto, Alainis, and Athena exuded an enjoyment of battle ("engagement," > if you will) on all levels (not just physical), which I didn't sense in, > say, Ephiny or Gabrielle. They exchanged "come hither" looks which were > part of the challenge, as you say. Xena was always positioned (in her own > mind and by reputation) as the "best." Her enemies saw her as the ultimate > "conquest," which I think had admiration and attraction mixed in. I see > KT's point, in that I think Xena "flirted" in the sense of "You want me? > Come get me." Callisto and Athena often looked with desire at their > unattainable quarry, but no, I don't think Xena felt the same desire for > them. > > -- Ife Oh dear. I seem to be making a lot of 'me too' posts lately. :( But, for the record, I agree with you almost completely. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:22:43 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] fake Xena tattoos poll Tattoos? Why not something more connected to X:WP?! A single inch and a half one wouldn't be big enough, but maybe it could be so designed that by using more than one and placing them next to each other we could get a pattern resembling one of the MEHDI designs from the show. TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:03:33 -0600 From: "Daniel T. Miller" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Gina Torres--Firefly Just a reminder that the 2-hour Firefly pilot starring the X:WP/Herc alum airs Friday on Fox. This apparently was rejected as a first episode by Fox because it wasn't humorous enough or it was too dark or some such crap. I had just about given up on this show. Figuring even geniuses (Josh Wheadon) can have bad ideas. But I've seen the last three episodes. The Gunsmoke in outer space concept has been mercifully scrapped. Or at least deemphasized. The last two episodes were--dare I say it?--Xena worthy. Really! Well, right up there with the dark, scary, action filled, smart women outthinking the villains, kicking butt Xena episodes. Hope the pilot--the origin is the same tone. I'd go into more detail-- but hey, this isn't a Firefly list. ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:34:52 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Tattoos Sounds like fun. I don't quite know how they come but pictures or iconic ones would be cool. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:42:15 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena As I see it I think Callisto was very attracted to Xena. Which probably related to her own self-loathing - to be attracted to someone who you blame for killing your family is pretty sick but then Callisto is so stricken by survivor guilt that any emotion is logical for her. I didn't see much attraction on Xena's part - guilt and pity but not sexual attraction. I did however believe that on the same level as a great athlete loves the challenge another great athlete gives them, Xena did love the challenge that Callisto gave her in their fights. As for Allanis nope no attraction there just a kind of contempt on the order of "this Athena's champion!?" CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 05:22:10 +1300 (NZDT) From: sojourner@paradise.net.nz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena Quoting cande@sunlink.net: > As I see it I think Callisto was very attracted to Xena. Which probably > related to her own self-loathing - to be attracted to someone who you > blame for killing your family is pretty sick but then Callisto is so stricken > by survivor guilt that any emotion is logical for her. I didn't see much > attraction on Xena's part - guilt and pity but not sexual attraction. I > did however believe that on the same level as a great athlete loves the > challenge another great athlete gives them, Xena did love the challenge that > Callisto gave her in their fights. > > As for Allanis nope no attraction there just a kind of contempt on the > order of "this Athena's champion!?" > > CherylA I agree that Xena certainly appreciated the challenge posed by Callisto (not initially of course, remember that confused almost sad face in Callisto where the second-banana blonde catches the chakram for the first time) and Ilianus in AUS. I do not agree that X was just being flirty though. I think there is a strong connection between X's sexual self and her being a warrior. She is fully alive when fighting - it is her most natural state. (Not saying she is a well-rounded individual who is in touch with her feelings, mind). But she brings sexual energy and awareness to many of her fights. I also reckon she uses it to engage and distract her opponents. "Ya wanna fight me or f*** me? Either way baby, I WIN!" With Callisto, for sure, I was always waiting for her to throw her sword to the ground and leap on Xena and ravish her. Rob is clearly homophobic because he didn't let that scenario develop. (Warning: this is an emoticon-free email. You gotta spot irony all by yourself with me.) Fanfic, by allowing the expression of X&G's sexual relationship, certainly explores this theme more than the show. Just a question about Ares - sex and struggle seemed to go together for X & A. Did fight scenes between the two end up with the "kiss her/him, you fool!"? No wonder X was suspicious of the softer "I love you" from Ares. Not part of the rules..... Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:33:36 -0500 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Flirty Xena On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 05:22:10 +1300 (NZDT) sojourner@paradise.net.nz wrote: = "I also reckon she uses it to engage and distract her opponents. "Ya wanna fight me or f*** me? Either way baby, I WIN!" With Callisto, for sure, I was always waiting for her to throw her sword to the ground and leap on Xena and ravish her. Rob is clearly homophobic because he didn't let that scenario develop. (Warning: this is an emoticon-free email. You gotta spot irony all by yourself with me.)" Certainly I agree that Xena's fighting has a very sexual component to it and there is orgasmic joy to her battles. I also agree that Callisto has a sexual fascination with Xena and an odd admiration for her. In all probalility its that sex and death connection that gets to Callisto. She has apparently rejected sex (TROC) yet there is a physical attraction to Xena. It is also somewhat ironic that Callisto who rejected love as trick to make people reproduce finally does reproduce (Eve) but in a nonsexual way and with Xena. I have so idea what that means. > "Just a question about Ares - sex and struggle seemed to go together for X & A. Did fight scenes between the two end up with the "kiss her/him, you fool!"? No wonder X was suspicious of the softer "I love you" from Ares. Not part of the rules....." I think the struggle with Ares is an vital part of Xena's relationship with him. She really can't relate to him except through conflict. To her his "I love you" is only a trick that is part of their continual conflict. Even when they get together (TSOA) Xena is rather rough with the guy. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:07:26 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again First, let me say that when I first watched Amphipolis I only noticed this interaction during the final battle scene between Xena/Alainis and Ares/Athena. Before Xena and Alainis engage in battle, Xena literally scans her from head to toe, relaxed, grinning and says, "Not bad." (Something like that--I'm traveling again and unfortunately I didn't bring ALL my tapes...) But I remember grinning and thinking "What a SCAMP that Xena is" when I noticed that. Replays of this ep on my tv afterwards mainly featured the Ares/Xena scenes. I'm just not that enamored of battle scenes. On re-viewing, they tend to be run fast forward. But I re-watched the whole thing in order to post something on it for this list and this time I saw Xena "noticing" the big grrl in charge right away. (Of course, the first time I saw Xena and Alainis' first encounter, I was too bus screaming "YESSSS" at the screen due to Lucy being back in her Xena suit that I had missed much of the details.) > Hmmm. I saw much more of that from Cally and Alainis. Oh, I saw it from Callisto all the time. Callisto acted like a spoiled little brat a lot when confronting Xena. (And I thought that Adrienne did an astounding job of catching this quality of Callisto's in Livia, when she destroyed her bedroom because she was p*ssed over Xena and Ares at the ball. She was SOOOOO Hudson as Callisto at times in that ep.) And Xena just played along with Callisto's fascination/hate obsession towards Xena so well. I remember Xena pouting out something like, "Well, you never wrote" with this little girl coyness when Callisto said something like, "Long time no see." DAMN! I HATE not having my tapes with me!!!!! I THINK that scene is from Necessary Evil? When she goes down the pit to get Callisto. I never saw Xena as > flirting, so much as appreciating the seductiveness and sensuality, getting > revved up for a good fight. Now, if you mean she *used* her powers of > seduction and sensuality on C&A (but wasn't actually attracted like them), I > can agree with your use of flirting. (I know -- "picky," "picky.") > > -- Ife Oh absolutely this is what I mean. "Flirtation" was definitely one of the tools in Xena's weapon box. And no, Callisto NEVER seriously turned her on. She was doing tit-for-tat with her, that's all, I think. In AUS, I remember writing a review when I first saw it that mentioned that you could literally see how joyful Lucy was to be totally "back" as Xena. That she was literally bouncing with glee at times. And I suspect that this "checking out the goods" was just part of Lucy's joy at being able to portray the full Xena again. Post pregnancy, post maternal leave, outta that damn coat/stockings/svelte short boots outfit and back in her full Xena look. And back into Xena's mischievious, sensuous self again. Who knows--Lucy may have been highly amused at the dumb outfits they put those guys into and the mascara on Alainis. She was just so GIRLY!!!!! Speaking of which, there's a blooper bit that shows that--the actress is using her little finger to fix her eye make-up just before she stomps down into a fighting stance. Perhaps Lucy was responding to this attitude on her part? But it's definitely there, each time she gets into a stand-off with her. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:38:19 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again Snip snip snip for bandwidth > > You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one > > roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy > > puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. > > Awww, and I thought that was just Xena being rather derisive of Athena's > champion's fighting abilities. Would this not be "assessing"? It's just about the same look she gives to Marcus when he's lost his vest in Mortal Beloved and she zones in on his bare chest. She was "assessing" there too. As we know because she saunters off and says, "You've lost weight." She's definitely a woman who likes to check out the goods. (My FAVORITE Xena-checking-out-the- goods-moment though is in End Game when she scans Brutus' equipment, after she sneaks up on him while he's relieving himself. And does an eyebrow lift "comment" on it.) You're just too hung up on subtext of all > sorts, KT ;) Hey, with Xena there just IS subtext of all sorts. Lucy is an incredibly charismatic animal. She generates more chemistry than DuPont ever dreamed of. In fact sometimes I think about that John whoever who played Ulysses. He's like the only person in the whole series whom even Lucy couldn't generate sparks with. How pitiful is THAT? KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:53:38 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again > > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up. It > > was very reminiscent of when Xena and Callisto would battle--the same coy > > looks, smart alecky comments and the same savoring stares. Whoooo-eeee! > > wow. you and i certainly had different takes on that. possibly because > ilainus gave me the ooglies. the actor, or maybe just the outfit and makeup, > were so corny. my take on it was that xena was aiming at athena via ilainus. > xena always has snappy repartee under pressure so i didn't find her behavior > w/ ilainus (impossible name) that different from her behavior w/ anybody > else under such circumstances. I don't see her ALWAYS flirting in battle. I've only seen it in battle with Callisto, Ares and now Alainis. And as I said, I always saw it at the end, perhaps because Lucy punches it with a "Very nice..." or whatever. But when I rewatched it, I saw it other times too. Especially at their first meeting. She's teasing that girl. > > admittedly, i'd probably have dismissed flirting if it were there b/c i > wouldn't have approved of the flirtee, LOL! As I said, she was so darn GIRLY!!!! but i just didn't see it. and of > course nobody but *no*body tops callisto in that department in my opinion. > they have a much hotter chemistry to me than xena and gab. well, just very > different. more like xena and ares cause there's that badass thing going. > Yes. I've never seen heat between X&G. Huge doses of love, protection, willingness to die for each other, etc, but almost never sexual heat. EXCEPT for Heart of Darkness. When Gab gets that little spot of evil and suddenly for once SHOWS being seriously horny instead of just casually mentioning it as she has in the past. (Warrior Priestess Tramp and---Two muses? is it? When Gab takes what Xena says as indicating she's horny and agrees with her and then Xena claims that that wasn't what SHE was talking about at all. grin) But I have to admit, I HATE it that a woman feeling lustful is due to her feeling "evil" encroaching in her heart. > xena's always torn between the goody two shoeses (gab, lao ma, and akemi for > example) and the badasses like callie and alti. we *know* she loves bad boys > but she is not indifferent to the sparks set off by ornery women. ah, the > inevitable pull between having fun with the bad and being redeemed by the > good. her life story. > > md Absolutely. And you know, she never flirted with Lao Ma either that I ever saw. She was like a big ol' puppy with her, galoomping in her eagerness to please her. Bratty when she didn't FEEL like having a lesson that day, but always skittering after Lao Ma whenever they were together. And Lucy sure thought that Xena had the hots for Akemi, apparently, as she talks about on the FIN commentary. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #347 **************************************