From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #346 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, December 20 2002 Volume 02 : Number 346 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews [mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [mirrordrum ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] fake Xena tattoos poll ["Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? > Oh I think they had a great deal of concern about Xena's pride and rep. It > just was that they wrote her to just do what she had to do and never > to worry about what anybody else thought. >> > > LOL! That's what I meant. I had *my* idea of what was "appropriate" for > her, which sometimes didn't match what Xenastaff allowed her to do. Mind > you, I liked that they let her be "herself" (as Lucy interpreted her) and > didn't worry about pleasing everybody (characters or fans). That doesn't > mean they didn't care about her ultimately being seen as honorable, skilled-- > or accepted as flawed -- etc. But sometimes I cared less about the mission, > than what she had to do to accomplish the mission. Unlike Xena. Yes. Gotta work on your "Focus" there, kiddo. ;-> Once I reconciled myself > to focusing on the mission or on Xenastaff's interpretation of the character, > I didn't get so hung up on how she did something or the way she looked > carrying it out. Many of us have said that "Xena wouldn't do that," when it > probably has more to do with *our* view of what she ought to do. > > -- Ife Absolutely. But this is not to say that some things just don't jive with the character they have created over the years. When I first saw Motherhood and saw Xena crash the chakram into Gabrielle's head, I just could not accept that Xena would ever do that. Nope, she would have knocked the table over or struck the sai out of her hand or something else. I figured they were just manipulating us into being even more horror stricken by things that were going on in that ep. Later we found out from interviews that it was supposed to be set up so that Xena saw a shadow attacking Eve. That she had no idea that it was Gabrielle and she was supposed to be throwing the chakram "blind" around a corner or through a window or something. Well the director didn't get that part in--somehow they hadn't made the window and therefore didn't have shots of the shadows that Xena was supposed to see. And the way that they film, in bits and pieces, neither Rob nor Lucy realized that the sequence would wind up the way it did, with Xena standing in the same room and chakraming Gabrielle's head. This was why Lucy insisted that an apology for that be done as it was in Coming Home--because she also knew that Xena would never do that to Gabrielle. But boy, I'm sure sorry that we missed seeing Lucy play Xena realizing that it was Gabrielle who had been killing her daughter and that it was Gabrielle whom she had just chakramed. Hoooooo! And also I just will never believe that Gab would ever slap Xena across the face when she was bound and helpless and kneeling before her enemy as she was in the Debt. Nope nope nope nope nope. (And I know, we've been over this before...grin. I still figure it was just a little twist to torque up the Rift Arc Angst O' Meter.) Now having agreed that saying "Xena would never do this" comes more from our own perception of who/what Xena is/stands for, I also stick by my "Xena would never be that way" takes on OAAA and Fates... But my defense of those is that her behavior in these eps didn't relate to completing the mission. In FATES, her behavior actually hampered her ever present side mission of always protecting and saving Gabrielle. And of course, we all know that in the comedies, anybody will do anything and sometime do things that got nothing to do with the show's canon. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:59:48 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews On Thursday 19 December 2002 06:40, mirrordrum wrote: > oh please go to one a week. i might even be able to comment if they were > one a week and i'd love that. 2 a week just leaves me overwhelmed. i'd be > happy w/ one every 2 weeks! > > i've been wanting to comment but it just goes too fast. > > md I'd *love* to see some comments from you, md. In fact I'd love to see some comments from anyone other than lfe or me. Ummm. That didn't come out the way I meant it. Not that I don't want to see lfe's comments (or mine :) but it would be nice to see some from somebody else as well. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:12:42 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? > In a message dated 12/12/02 4:56:50 PM Central Standard Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << She's not grovelling, she's scamming. All she needs to know is that she > could, even after that beating, have flipped around on that rope and > killed Gurkhan with ease. >> > > I agree with the not grovelling, but I don't think she was in any shape at > that point to do more than bleed. Heck, she could only stagger a few feet > before collapsing, once they freed her. Yessss, but I didn't say she actually had to take out Gurkhan. She just has to BELIEVE she can to get through this with her dignity and sense of self intact. You know that if they had dragged Gab in there and tried to string her up and beat her, Xena would have taken them all out. No question. I mean, the only reason Gab died on the cross in Ides without Xena saving her was that Xena's back was broken and she was semi-paralyzed. Otherwise--un-unh--they both woulda been outta there and away. That was even more powerful to me, > because all she had to rely on was her will to survive and wits. Remember > when she told that harem girl to think of her boyfriend to get her through > the hard times? I think that's why she "saw" Gabby -- to give her > confidence, to remind her why she had to make it and to give her the energy > to see the opportunity in Gurkhan's questions. > Yes, I think she retreated in her mind and pulled Gabrielle into her consciousness to get her through this, definitely. It's a classic mental defense against torture, no? To "go somewhere else" and escape from the moment. > I read somewhere that they cut out a scene where Xena was drugged, which > would've explained why she didn't fight back. Given what we did see, they > could've chained her while she was unconscious and hurt her pretty seriously > then. Gads, I read that they considered whipping her. I don't know if *I* could have forgiven them for that. Xena probably coulda. But whatever made them not whip her, I appreciate that they didn't. I also read in Chakram that Rob said there was supposed to be a scene at the end where X&G are horse back riding on a beach. And that this is a treat that Xena wants to give Gab. And they never had time to shoot it. Perhaps this was supposed to be the images Xena used to get through this horrific beating? I chose to believe that she could've fought back early on, but didn't, > to protect the mission I believe that too. and because it might've been too difficult to fight > her way to Gabs and get everybody out safely. Oh you mean when Gab first doh-dee-dohs in? At that time? Yeah, she didn't know who Sarah was then. In a way, that heightened the > poignancy and extent of what she endured -- because she had been reduced to > physical helplessness for once. > > -- Ife I still say that if Gab needed her, she'da blown them all away. But yeah, since Gab was safe in the harem at the moment, then Xena didn't need to make that extra effort--she just needed to not die from her wounds so she could eventually get back to Gab and save her and Sarah. And take all those girls out cruising too. KT Honey, let me take you on a * SEA CRUISE!~ Ooooo-eeeeeee, oooooo-eeeee baby, oooo-eeeeeee (fade out) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:22:27 -0500 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews thanks, thelo. it's just been too fast for me. these later seasons are the ones i would be most likely to want to comment on and things have been whizzing by at such a rate i've not even been able to keep up with the posts as i'd wish. if we (sic) were doing them more slowly, it would be possible at least to insert the odd remark. i don't know about my capacity for in depth discussion these days but i can, and would like to, throw in a comment now and again. probably about something trivial. md - ----- Original Message ----- From: "cr" To: "mirrordrum" ; ; Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews > On Thursday 19 December 2002 06:40, mirrordrum wrote: > > oh please go to one a week. i might even be able to comment if they were > > one a week and i'd love that. 2 a week just leaves me overwhelmed. i'd be > > happy w/ one every 2 weeks! > > > > i've been wanting to comment but it just goes too fast. > > > > md > > I'd *love* to see some comments from you, md. In fact I'd love to see > some comments from anyone other than lfe or me. > > Ummm. That didn't come out the way I meant it. Not that I don't want to > see lfe's comments (or mine :) but it would be nice to see some from > somebody else as well. > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:33:53 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again > > I think we're saying the same thing. Ares wants Xena as his warrior > > queen. Except that unlike in the past, Ares definitely wants > > Xena's body in his bed as part of her new alliance with him. And Xena > > knows this--hence the flasher look she adapts as her new fashion style. > > > > Ah. No, actually I hadn't considered the making babies part, tho it makes > sense. I figured this was just a continuance of their discussion in Eternal Bonds--where he definitely tells her he'll save her and Eve if she will go back with him and give him a child. It's that mortality issue he talks about in that ep. I'd assumed he'd jump Xena's bones at the first opportunity, > regardless of what she did -- or didn't -- have on. Well, that goes without saying. Grin. His constant picking of fights with her was a classic case of substitution behavior. "She won't have sex with me, but she ALWAYS responds physically to a good goad..." And then they get all physical and sweaty with each other, in each other's faces and dancing in their duels together. And then he always lets her win. Even if it looks like he then loses, as happened in the Furies. But, yes, her outfit did > make it perfectly clear that this time her body would be his on all ... > levels. > > -- Ife You know, Gab COULD have run in as a fur protester and doused them both with some ice cold paint. I bet she would have enjoyed that. But of course, bombing the temple was much more likely to attract Athena's attention. (Though I bet SHE would have enjoyed seeing panting Ares painted too.) You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up. It was very reminiscent of when Xena and Callisto would battle--the same coy looks, smart alecky comments and the same savoring stares. Whoooo-eeee! KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:40:17 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews > > No I plan on doing the whole season - every episode but I have been doing > two > > a week. I thought I may do only one a week. The reviews have been more > > indepth as the seasons go along and I have a hard time getting two a week > > done. > > > > Any you know with DVDs coming (someday) I may just have start over ;-) > > > > CherylA On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, mirrordrum wrote: > oh please go to one a week. i might even be able to comment if they were one > a week and i'd love that. 2 a week just leaves me overwhelmed. i'd be happy > w/ one every 2 weeks! > > i've been wanting to comment but it just goes too fast. > > md Well hell, md, don't let that stop ya! Be like me--just go digging into the past posts and answer them anyway! I just found a whole cache of dozens of posts from August that are not at all familiar--I apparently never even read them. (I was way busy with work in August and also spent some time on an island in Maine without electricity.) I was WONDERING why I'd never seen discussions on Between the Lines, Devi and The Way--and there they were, all nestled up in August. And yeah, I REALLY like talking about these more complicated episodes and arcs. There's just so much to ferret out in them. As Ife said, I doubt if I'll EVER get tired of thinking about all the things that this show brought up and all the changes that the characters went through. What a great show. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 02:51:11 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews In a message dated 12/19/2002 12:07:12 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > md > > I'd *love* to see some comments from you, md. In fact I'd love to see > some comments from anyone other than lfe or me. > > Ummm. That didn't come out the way I meant it. Not that I don't want to > see lfe's comments (or mine :) but it would be nice to see some from > somebody else as well. > Never fear. I'm right with you on that. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 02:51:24 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? In a message dated 12/19/2002 12:13:14 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << She's not grovelling, she's scamming. All she needs to know is that she > > could, even after that beating, have flipped around on that rope and > > killed Gurkhan with ease. >> > > > > I agree with the not grovelling, but I don't think she was in any shape at > > that point to do more than bleed. Heck, she could only stagger a few feet > > before collapsing, once they freed her. > > > Yessss, but I didn't say she actually had to take out Gurkhan. She just > has to BELIEVE she can to get through this with her dignity and sense of > self intact. Agreed. I think the belief was what made her so invincible. Well, that and the body doubles, harnesses, rubber swords -- but, I digress. - -- ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 02:51:26 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again In a message dated 12/19/2002 12:34:25 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one > roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy > puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. > > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up. It > was very reminiscent of when Xena and Callisto would battle--the same coy > looks, smart alecky comments and the same savoring stares. Whoooo-eeee! > Hmmm. I saw much more of that from Cally and Alainis. I never saw Xena as flirting, so much as appreciating the seductiveness and sensuality, getting revved up for a good fight. Now, if you mean she *used* her powers of seduction and sensuality on C&A (but wasn't actually attracted like them), I can agree with your use of flirting. (I know -- "picky," "picky.") - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 03:33:53 EST From: Trek4u269@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews I feel like wyle e. coyote trying to keep up with the roadrunner pace of the list during the holidays since thanksgiving. I have full threads archived to read some day....and with lord of the rings generating talk I will be buried. anyways...............happy holidays...........................glad to have you people and this fandom in my life. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:59:14 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Slowing Down the Reviews On Thursday 19 December 2002 19:40, KTL wrote: > > > > i've been wanting to comment but it just goes too fast. > > > > md > > Well hell, md, don't let that stop ya! Be like me--just go digging into > the past posts and answer them anyway! We had noticed. Nothing is ever safely dead and buried with KT around. It's just sitting there in KT's mailbox, lurking... and waiting... and waiting... and lurking.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:24:19 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Thursday 19 December 2002 19:33, KTL wrote: > > > But, yes, her outfit did > > > make it perfectly clear that this time her body would be his on all ... > > levels. > > > > -- Ife > > You know, Gab COULD have run in as a fur protester and doused them both > with some ice cold paint. I bet she would have enjoyed that. Yep, isn't she just the fly in the ointment, the caterpillar in the lettuce, the scratch on the critical track of the DVD..... (Do DVD's have tracks? Probably) Like Xena said, "My advisers, they're such busybodies" > But of > course, bombing the temple was much more likely to attract Athena's > attention. (Though I bet SHE would have enjoyed seeing panting Ares > painted too.) > > You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one > roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy > puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. Awww, and I thought that was just Xena being rather derisive of Athena's champion's fighting abilities. You're just too hung up on subtext of all sorts, KT ;) > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up. It > was very reminiscent of when Xena and Callisto would battle--the same coy > looks, smart alecky comments and the same savoring stares. Whoooo-eeee! > > KT Yeah well, now, Callisto was another deal altogether. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:58:52 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Thursday 19 December 2002 20:51, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/19/2002 12:34:25 AM Central Standard Time, > > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one > > roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy > > puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. > > > > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up. It > > was very reminiscent of when Xena and Callisto would battle--the same > > coy looks, smart alecky comments and the same savoring stares. > > Whoooo-eeee! > > Hmmm. I saw much more of that from Cally and Alainis. I never saw Xena as > flirting, so much as appreciating the seductiveness and sensuality, getting > revved up for a good fight. Now, if you mean she *used* her powers of > seduction and sensuality on C&A (but wasn't actually attracted like them), > I can agree with your use of flirting. (I know -- "picky," "picky.") > > -- Ife Oooh, I'm gonna nitpick now. I don't think Xena was using her powers of seduction on either of 'em, at all. I think Callisto could feel Xena's attraction, and responded in kind (like at the start of Sacrifice, she was definitely flirting with Xena), but I don't think Xena was either interested or deliberately trying to use it on Callisto. It was just there. With Ilainis, I didn't see it on either side. I thought Xena was just taunting Ilainis, if anything. "You're the big cheese, huh? You don't look so hot to me." I could see there was something personal between Xena and Ilainis - but I thought it was more in the nature of a challenge. Xena and Ilainis both wanted to be top dog. Nothing to do with sex, everything to do with ego, is how I saw it. Just IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:14:18 -0500 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again - ----- Original Message ----- From: "KTL" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:33 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again > You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one > roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy > puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. > > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up. It > was very reminiscent of when Xena and Callisto would battle--the same coy > looks, smart alecky comments and the same savoring stares. Whoooo-eeee! wow. you and i certainly had different takes on that. possibly because ilainus gave me the ooglies. the actor, or maybe just the outfit and makeup, were so corny. my take on it was that xena was aiming at athena via ilainus. xena always has snappy repartee under pressure so i didn't find her behavior w/ ilainus (impossible name) that different from her behavior w/ anybody else under such circumstances. admittedly, i'd probably have dismissed flirting if it were there b/c i wouldn't have approved of the flirtee, but i just didn't see it. and of course nobody but *no*body tops callisto in that department in my opinion. they have a much hotter chemistry to me than xena and gab. well, just very different. more like xena and ares cause there's that badass thing going. xena's always torn between the goody two shoeses (gab, lao ma, and akemi for example) and the badasses like callie and alti. we *know* she loves bad boys but she is not indifferent to the sparks set off by ornery women. ah, the inevitable pull between having fun with the bad and being redeemed by the good. her life story. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:44:55 -0500 From: mirrordrum Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again > In a message dated 12/19/2002 12:34:25 AM Central Standard Time, > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > > You know, one more thing about Amphipolis under Siege--Xena sure had one > > roving eye over Alainis. Right from the moment she first sees her, Lucy > > puts on her crooked, smirky grin and "assesses" the girl flat out. > > > > There was so MUCH flirting between them as they sized each other up.Whoooo-eeee! > > > > Hmmm. I saw much more of that from Cally and Alainis. I never saw Xena as > flirting, so much as appreciating the seductiveness and sensuality, getting > revved up for a good fight. Now, if you mean she *used* her powers of > seduction and sensuality on C&A (but wasn't actually attracted like them), I > can agree with your use of flirting. (I know -- "picky," "picky.") no, i think it's an interesting distinction and i'm not sure it doesn't apply to both men and women with xena. draco comes to mind right away as does marcus. there's just a certain zing there. and rafe. and certainly antony, cjc and ares. lucifer was a little harder to figure. certainly she used him. whether she actually felt something was a bit unclear. possibly just basic lust. i don't think there's a question with the men that she feels something. she's a happening kind of gal, she's been around the block any number of times and she certainly isn't averse to getting it on, one way or another. i think you're right that we're to see her as always having the upper hand. she has the ability to control and hence use her reactions as well as her considerable skills with men--or male characters (ares and lucifer not being men, strictly speaking). with female characters, i do see her as flirtatious but not necessarily sexually so. teasing, sensual, challenging, attractive, come hither but not too hither. the difference is that with women, well with "good" ones anyway, she lets her guard down in a way she doesn't with men. did any man ever actually break her heart? caesar broke her legs and he betrayed her but i don't know that she was ever actually in love with him. in lust, yeah. attracted, yeah. stimulated by his power? yeah. but nothing like the love (however defined) that seems to happen with, again, lao ma, gab, and akemi. akemi breaks her heart, she owes lao ma a debt so big that she'll sacrifice everything for her; and she believes she can't live without gabrielle. interestingly, gabrielle is the one who in the end is willing and able to let xena go at great personal cost and without incurring debt. she doesn't want to, but she does it. well, i think that's all i have to say about *that*! nice to be back. what fun. md ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:53:12 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again In a message dated 12/19/2002 4:19:15 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > I could see there was something personal between Xena and Ilainis - but I > thought it was more in the nature of a challenge. Xena and Ilainis both > wanted to be top dog. Nothing to do with sex, everything to do with ego, > is > how I saw it. > > Just IMO. I don't think we're disagreeing. I used "seduction" and "sensuality" because I think of them as as more complex than "sex." To me, Xena, Callisto, Alainis, and Athena exuded an enjoyment of battle ("engagement," if you will) on all levels (not just physical), which I didn't sense in, say, Ephiny or Gabrielle. They exchanged "come hither" looks which were part of the challenge, as you say. Xena was always positioned (in her own mind and by reputation) as the "best." Her enemies saw her as the ultimate "conquest," which I think had admiration and attraction mixed in. I see KT's point, in that I think Xena "flirted" in the sense of "You want me? Come get me." Callisto and Athena often looked with desire at their unattainable quarry, but no, I don't think Xena felt the same desire for them. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:23:12 -0800 From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" Subject: [chakram-refugees] fake Xena tattoos poll We're putting together ideas for stuff to sell at the Pasadena convention and someone in the office suggested tattoos. I've been told they would be 1 1/2" in size and they can be photographic or just icons like the chakram. Anyone have any thoughts about this? Good idea? Crazy idea? Things you would like them to be?? Thanks, Sharon Official Xena Fan Club Creation Ent. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:29:31 -0500 From: mirrordrum Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: [Flawless] fake Xena tattoos poll yeah, can you have em make them hypoallergenic so i can get one of my buds to buy me one or two? i've always wanted to wear a faux tattoo but the effing things make me break out. i'd love to get my partner a xener one. she's such a shameless and unregenerate xenaho. gawds! i think actually the reason she loves xena so much is because in xena's off time, she gets to be lucy. i keep explaining to her that lucy is just an ordinary mortal but she has that "flawless haze" thing going and there's no reasoning with her. *martyr'd sigh* md ;) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Creation (Sharon Delaney)" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:23 PM Subject: [Flawless] fake Xena tattoos poll > We're putting together ideas for stuff to sell at the Pasadena convention > and someone in the office suggested tattoos. I've been told they would be > 1 1/2" in size and they can be photographic or just icons like the chakram. > Anyone have any thoughts about this? Good idea? Crazy idea? Things you > would like them to be?? > > Thanks, > Sharon > Official Xena Fan Club > Creation Ent. > > > > To unsubscribe: From your email program, send a blank message to: flawless-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #346 **************************************