From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #340 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Saturday, December 14 2002 Volume 02 : Number 340 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Top Ten List [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [Liz > [] [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] ["Jackie M. Young" > ["S. Wilso] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> [IfeRae@ao] [chakram-refugees] o/in the spirit of "xena live"... [meredith > See, I didn't interpret G's "don't do this" or A's "give herself over to > me" > > as being about sex. I thought they were referring mostly to Xena's offer > of > > her sword on his behalf (with the body wielding it being a nice perk). > The > > sex was simply their way of consummating the deal. > > > I think we're saying the same thing. Ares wants Xena as his warrior > queen. Except that unlike in the past, Ares definitely wants > Xena's body in his bed as part of her new alliance with him. And Xena > knows this--hence the flasher look she adapts as her new fashion style. > Ah. No, actually I hadn't considered the making babies part, tho it makes sense. I'd assumed he'd jump Xena's bones at the first opportunity, regardless of what she did -- or didn't -- have on. But, yes, her outfit did make it perfectly clear that this time her body would be his on all ... levels. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:17:51 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Top Ten List In a message dated 12/12/2002 10:30:49 PM Central Standard Time, spri0037@tc.umn.edu writes: > I am trying to remember, maybe someone else on the list remembers, > reading somewhere (Whoosh?) that Alexander Tydings had taken a course in > Feminist Theater, and for all that I don't like the stereotypes of how > she had to play Aphrodite (still sexual candy), yet, she added so much > intelligence to the role. I remember the scene in Punchlines, where she > pulls up the chair with her bifocals on as she pretends to be Sigmund > Freud, listening to Gabrielle's troubles, and it is so good how she did > that. At one point in that scene, she pulls herself up suddenly into the > chair, sort of jumping up and crosses her legs and listens, and it was > so rarely I got to see Alexander Tydings being what/who I imagine she is > like as a real person. > Oh, I'm with you on that. She made "Punchlines" for me. That's another of those eps you could easily overlook, which has some great little moments in it. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:35:46 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Friday 13 December 2002 00:27, KTL wrote: > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > @ > > @ > > @ > > @ > > @ > > @ > > @ > > > > > Some fans complained that they didn't like Xena using > > her body to get what she wanted - well the body was the bait but it was > > Xena's cleverness that got her what she wanted. > > I had a LONG discussion on this on the Xenaverse, when some of the folks > on there stated that Xena offering herself to Ares was nothing but rape > and that the XWP staff should be ashamed of themselves. Umm, now can we get this straight - who was raping who? ;) > (One of the most > vocal people admitted she hadn't even watched the ep--she was working off > nothing but the coming attractions. heh.) About par for the course, I think :( cr ... Xena can rape me, _anytime_ :) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:46:04 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Friday 13 December 2002 00:43, KTL wrote: > s > l > i > n > g > t > h > a > t > c > o > w > > I want to weigh in also on the Xena tricked him argument. I thought she > did when I first saw it. And indeed, Lucy plays Xena as being slightly > embarassed when she tosses the doll over and says, "You saved my dollie". > That, probably more than anything else made me go back and rewatch the > seduction scene. > Hey, ho, here we go again.... :) > Xena goes to Ares' temple to start her seduction. She calls him to > appear. She initiates contact. > (Big snip) > > X: I am offering you a deal and I don't go back on my promises. OUCH! That just made it worse when she did. (But see later). > > G: Ares! Ares, I need to talk to you! > A: Well, aren't I Mr. Popular? > > (He is PISSED, suspicious and wary. He ain't stupid.) > > G: I'm not here to play games. (Uh-huh) I know that Xena made an offer > to you. > A: You're telling the story. > G. If you lay a hand on her, I swear... > A: WHAT! You'll do what? > G: If you accept, you will destroy Xena. You will turn her into exactly > what she used to be-a vicious killer. > A: Yeah, well, I kind of liked that Xena. > G: Did you? Then why are you so obsessed with who she is now? Tell me > you don't feel anything for the real Xena. The good Xena. > > (Actually, Gabrielle is wrong-he has ALWAYS been obsessed with Xena. When > she's bad and when she's good and when she's half good and when she's half > bad. He wants her any way she is.) > You go, girl! :) > > X: Areeees. So, are we going to seal this deal? Or what? > > And off they go sealing. And then we get bombus interruptus. Gabrielle > blows up the place real good. Breaks up the temple and breaks up the > assignation. > > While Xena is getting dressed, Ares says, > > A: You're making a mistake. I would have kept our bargain. > X: I know you would have. I've got to do this my way. > A: What a surprise. > > Now this bit of dialogue made me realize that Xena called off the deal at > this point. Xena lets him know that her plans have changed. They no > longer have an agreement. Xena, knowing Ares, expected him to attack > Athena anyway and try to say she owed him. He HAD to in order for her > plan to work. But she does tell him she was now doing something else. She > just doesn't tell him what-the switch of the dollie for Eve. Ummm. I like the concept. It would salvage some of Xena's honour, for me. I think, just as the stay-dead clause in FIN was not developed explicitly enough for some people's liking, this point wasn't made entirely obvious in the ep. If it had been, I wouldn't have been so disconcerted about Xena 'welshing' on the deal. I'll ponder it. And thanks for bringing it up. > > And Xena has also always gotten off on wielding power. She enjoys it. > Just like she did when seducing Caesar in that cabin on her boat. It's > obvious that she was enjoying every moment of that encounter also. Even > if she's kind of ticked with herself that she did get into it in this > case. I really liked her kind of exasperated mumbling, "I felt > something." And I love her teasing of Gabrielle over it. I thought that was entirely teasing Gabby. It was genuine, but I don't think she was exasperated over it, IMO. > Man, I love this ep. It's one of the best ones of the whole series to me. > How can I possibly leave this one off my best list? *sigh* > > KT I shoulda put it on mine, if just for the dialogue alone..... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:15:21 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? On Friday 13 December 2002 11:14, KTL wrote: > > > >Yeah, it wasn't just the beating, it's the way she grovelled to > > > > Gurkhan. I just *cannot* see Xena ever doing that, whatever the > > > > circumstances. > > She's not grovelling, she's scamming. All she needs to know is that she > could, even after that beating, have flipped around on that rope and > killed Gurkhan with ease. Then.... why... didn't... . she ? (Ok, OK, I know......) > Just like she did to the Roman soldiers in > Destiny when she was crippled from having had her legs broken earlier that > day. Little things like that don't slow her down. Unless it's not time to > kill the enemy. When she took the beating, she didn't yet know who Sarah > was. So sure she could kill Gurkhan and escape (first getting Gab, of > course) but could she be certain she could identify Sarah and rescue her > during the possible pandemonium that might ensue if she did so? I suppose the fact that Sarah was the totally obnoxious No 1 wife that I was devoutly waiting to see Xena kick the butt of, is just one of those ironies which I normally like so much about the series. (But not in this case). > Well, sure we know Xena could but that wasn't the way they wrote it. Rob > has said in interviews in Chakram that he wanted to show just how much > Xena loved Gabrielle. Just how much she would do to save her. And that's > what Gurkhan and taking this beating is all about. Strangely enough, this does not give me a warm fuzzy glow. > > > > Well, if it hadn't been for Gabby's intervention (but whe've been through > > that before ;) she wouldn't have been in that position. > > Yeah, well, Xena intervened. But Gabrielle put them in a very dangerous > position. This is why I'm not so certain how long Gab will live now that > Xena's gone. Gabrielle (as Eve says) has a goal, but no plan. That was the only moment in the ep I really liked. Xena and Eve, like a couple of old lags discussing the chances of some talented amateur pulling off a job ..... "She ain't got the bottle for it. We could do it" "Yup" > Xena knows > this and sets off on her own, hoping to complete the mission before Gab > wakes up from her drug-induced nap. Fortunately for the story, this > doesn't happen. > > Gabrille not only has a dumb, simplistic approach--"I'll run in and knife > him, yeah!" (and one wonders just how she got her little knife through > Gurkhan's security force), but she also shows absolutely no sense of > self-awareness. They didn't have metal detectors in those days ;) > > She woulda killed > > Gurky and got away unharmed and un-humiliated. So the issue of her > > pride (or dignity, or self-respect, or whatever you want to call it) > > would not have arisen. > > I'm telling ya, I read in Chakram that this was exactly what Rob wanted to > show. The depths of Xena's love and commitment to Gab. AND, how else > would you expect a person who says about EVERY movie, "It needed a fight" > to show that? Aaargh. There are times when I doubt Rob Tapert..... not many, but this was one of them. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:24:53 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? On Friday 13 December 2002 13:09, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > Oh I think they had a great deal of concern about Xena's pride and rep. It > just was that they wrote her to just do what she had to do and never > to worry about what anybody else thought. >> > > LOL! That's what I meant. I had *my* idea of what was "appropriate" for > her, which sometimes didn't match what Xenastaff allowed her to do. Mind > you, I liked that they let her be "herself" (as Lucy interpreted her) and > didn't worry about pleasing everybody (characters or fans). That doesn't > mean they didn't care about her ultimately being seen as honorable, > skilled-- or accepted as flawed -- etc. But sometimes I cared less about > the mission, than what she had to do to accomplish the mission. Once I > reconciled myself to focusing on the mission or on Xenastaff's > interpretation of the character, I didn't get so hung up on how she did > something or the way she looked carrying it out. Many of us have said that > "Xena wouldn't do that," when it probably has more to do with *our* view of > what she ought to do. > > -- Ife Whoo hoo! Agree totally. I'm a confirmed sceptic when confronted by people who claim to know what Xena 'would' or 'wouldn't' do. Which still doesn't stop me from registering disapproval when Xena does something I feel inappropriate for a warrior princess - such as getting all mushy and sentimental over Gabby, for instance ;) Maybe that comment of yours about 'the mission' covers that scene in Gurkhan that I dislike so much (the one in the dungeon, I mean :) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:35:26 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list On Friday 13 December 2002 13:12, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > Well Rafe just didn't seem to be Xena's kind of guy - a cheap crook just > isn't her style. So I would have lost him and put Auto in his place. > > CherylA I think the point was that Rafe wasn't just a cheap crook, he was a con man who wasn't afraid to take on a murderous Mr Big like the casino owner, and perceptive enough to realise that his bet about getting Xena to kiss him wasn't worth winning, compared to gaining her respect. A little like Petracles, who professed to think nothing of his past affair with Xena, but secretly kept her bracelet. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:11:33 +0000 From: Liz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> At 23:35 13/12/2002 +1300, cr wrote: >On Friday 13 December 2002 00:27, KTL wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Cheryl Ande wrote: > > > @ > > > @ > > > @ > > > @ > > > @ > > > @ > > > @ > > > > > > > > > Some fans complained that they didn't like Xena using > > > her body to get what she wanted - well the body was the bait but it was > > > Xena's cleverness that got her what she wanted. > > > > I had a LONG discussion on this on the Xenaverse, when some of the folks > > on there stated that Xena offering herself to Ares was nothing but rape > > and that the XWP staff should be ashamed of themselves. > >Umm, now can we get this straight - who was raping who? ;) > > > (One of the most > > vocal people admitted she hadn't even watched the ep--she was working off > > nothing but the coming attractions. heh.) > >About par for the course, I think :( > >cr >... Xena can rape me, _anytime_ :) I think you are confusing forceful consensual sex with forceable nonconsenual sex. Also known as indecent assault. I'm sure you would know the difference in situ, as it were. Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:18:35 -0500 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:17:28 -0900 (AKST) KTL wrote: > "Well, not these gods. The villagers talk about switching over to Eli's god. And yeah, I'm with you also on Eve being one of them. But wow--these are the same folks (and/or their children) who will turn against Cyrene and burn her at the stake as a witch in her later years. Damn." > KT > Maybe the villagers blamed the fact that Athena was no longer around for the spooky doings at the Tavern. Then again villagers are known to be a bit excitable when supernatural things happen (note all the James Whalen films of the 1930s). CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:01:29 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, cr wrote: > Depends what you call 'moderate', because I expect if you stood on the beach > in whatever passes for a winter there in a Xena outfit with a stiff onshore > breeze, you'd start to feel a bit chilly. - --Hi Thel, I hate to burst your bubble, but I've lived here all my life, and the lowest I've ever seen it get down to (in the city) is 55 degrees F. Regardless of what scale you use, that's still considered *balmy* for most peeps outside of our state. (I spent a year in Canada in the '70s, and those *crazy Canadians* were streaking *naked* in the snow! I was considered "weird" because I wore a ski mask when it got down to only 50 degrees F. ;) ) I'd say LL would probably prefer *55 degrees F* to 0 C, to stand outside in her Xena outfit in. ;P Just MO, ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:32:41 -0600 From: "S. Wilson" Subject: RE: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> >===== Original Message From KTL ===== >> writes: >> >I perhaps didn't phrase this well enough. My main point is that the >story in the Xena Scrolls is absolutely not Gabrielle written. Joxer's >descendent is the one who tells this story about the scrolls that were >found in his grandfather's attic. And what great shape they're in for >their age! (Especially after whizzing around on a motorcycle and being >stored in a an attic for 50 years or so...) I was a bit confused there too by the Joxer-wrote-it thing. But now it's clear. Jack Kleinmann or whatever his name was, took off with "Gabrielle's" scrolls, stowed them in his attic in Hoboken where his grandson Ted Raimi found them and relayed the tales to Rob Tapert. So Ted Raimi wrote the Xena Scrolls. Which explains *alot*. >Tantalizingly enough, in Clones there is a reference to "The >tomb of the scrolls." Yeh. Didn't Dr. Alti get the strands of hair, and the broken chakram, from the toothy guy in the beginning who got them from the tomb? I have always wondered how the guy got into the rubble to pull out 2 strands of hair. >In the Xena Scrolls ep, Gabrielle is probably either dead or living >somewhere in another body. (Whereas Xena seems to be a free agent at the >moment, able to pop into Mel's body for a visit. So Xena was either in >the Reincarnation Waiting Room, or there's a flaccid body somewhere lying >around unanimated. Well, since TPTB never ever ever fleshed out "The Xena Scrolls", we'll never ever ever know. IMO, it was a mistake to introduce Janice & Mel and not have at least one follow-up ep. So theories abound. Mine is that Ares did something to piss off somebody that knew XnG, so somebody somehow entombed him with a curse, and something happened with that halved old chakram that caused Xena to 'wake up' when it was put back together. Curse broken? Curse fulfilled? Curse alarm system? Of course... I don't know how many fans I've talked to that totally disregard everything that happened in "The Xena Scrolls" because there's too many loose ends and continuity problems and story flubs to fit in now. It was an intriguing episode back in Season II; but with the end of Season VI untangling the loose ends left by TXS got just about impossible. It would take an amazing writer with an incredibly involved storyline to fix it. I nominate KT for precisely this reason: >Maybe the Guber's a cop and finds it and takes it to a >morgue and then voila! when Xena's spirit gets back and she crawls out of >the drawer, they can start their uber life together. HEY--now's there's a >good name for a Xuber--Voila. Voila Vixen (pronounced of course, Wallah >Wixen). Let me crack open a new notebook and start that story...) :P >So that one ep is most definitely not from a Gabrielle scroll. Another >non-gab scroll is the story told in the Between the Lines ep, which starts >off with a saying about Karma superimposed on the screen. This is >identified as being from the "Blue Scroll -- Author unknown". So there's >at least these and the Clones eps AND Deja Vu and Soul Possession that are >not Gab scrolls. Hmmm. More than I realized. Who does everyone think the authors of Xena's scrolls - the scrolls that give us the story of Xena - are? My guesses are: 1. Gabrielle 2. Joxer 3. Virgil 4. David 5. Xena herself I'm sure anyone Xena met could have written something about her, but those are the ones I guess either said they did or that they would or wanted to. S. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:06:43 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers <> In a message dated 12/13/02 1:33:28 PM Central Standard Time, sswilso@uark.edu writes: << I was a bit confused there too by the Joxer-wrote-it thing. But now it's clear. Jack Kleinmann or whatever his name was, took off with "Gabrielle's" scrolls, stowed them in his attic in Hoboken where his grandson Ted Raimi found them and relayed the tales to Rob Tapert. So Ted Raimi wrote the Xena Scrolls. Which explains *alot*. >> Okay, I'm still confused. If Whosits found the scrolls grandpa Jack somehow got from Mel and Janice, how does that make either of the men the author? I got the impression Whosits used Gab's scrolls for the basis of the stories he pitched. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:26:24 -0500 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] o/in the spirit of "xena live"... Hi, In the spirit of _Xena Live_, a queer theater troupe in Boston is currently staging _Buffy The Vampire Slayer's High School Reunion_. http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/347/living/_Buffy_helps_troupe_slay_stereotypes+.shtml Too bad I've got other plans when I'm in Boston tomorrow, or else I'd definitely try to check this out! Maybe they'll end up extending their run, or restaging it at another time ... it sounds like a hoot. One wonders if Joss Whedon has blessed their production like Rob Tapert blessed _Xena Live_... ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org NEXT UP: Holly Figueroa, 1/26/03 ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:23:12 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 02:43:58 -0900 (AKST), KTL wrote: >And off they go sealing. And then we get bombus interruptus. Gabrielle >blows up the place real good. Breaks up the temple and breaks up the >assignation. - --Oh, KT, "bombus interruptus"--that really *cracks me up*!!! ;=) And I *love* this particular potential-sex scene between LL and KS--got it as a video clip to watch over and over!! ;=) Titillating and *too funnee*!! ;) >Man, I love this ep. It's one of the best ones of the whole series to >me. How can I possibly leave this one off my best list? *sigh* - --Not my "best", but I do agree it's on my Top Ten. ;=) Dunno why others didn't like it as much as we two do?? Just ignore the tin-foil costumes. ;P It's full of sardonic humor/manipulation/possible sex/innuendos, etc. Just classic XWP, IMO. ;=) Just MO, - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #340 **************************************