From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #339 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, December 13 2002 Volume 02 : Number 339 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] RE: <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] Top Ten List [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] [KTL > In a message dated 12/12/02 8:29:14 AM Central Standard Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: << > Yeah *but* - having had a whole 25 years for > Ares to work on her.... what do > you call that if not 'environment'? And > having been influenced that way, > her strong will and determined nature would > make it just that much harder to > persuade her otherwise. > > IMO. > > cr You know that's an excellant point. I hadn't thought about how soon Ares could have gottn to Eve. If he had been "tutoring" her for let's say ten years (probably at the age Xena was fighting Cortese) then yes I could see why Eve was like she was. Too bad this was mentioned in the episode it would have given Livia more motivation and maybe make her more sympathetic. >> Hmmm, like cr, I got that impression from somewhere, although it wasn't until Livia's trial later on with the Amazons that we actually see -- oops, I'm getting ahead of myself in terms of spoilers. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:05:19 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again In a message dated 12/12/02 5:45:19 AM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << G. Ares, if you make her do this, she will never love you. A: You think she'd really give herself to me to save Eve? G: Has she ever said anything she doesn't mean? A. (said very deliberately) Thank you. G. Don't do it. At first, I found these lines very strange.I didn't understand Gabrielle's choice of a consequence here, that if Xena has sex with Ares, this turns her into a vicious killer. (She already is that.) And then I realized that perhaps Gabrielle was trying to get him to believe that she believed that if Xena had sex with Ares, she WOULD become his warrior queen, like he's wanted for so long. That she wouldn't be able to resist his pull once they had sex. She would go back to being the warlord, ultimately the conqueror perhaps. I believe Gabrielle is playing with his vanity. >> See, I didn't interpret G's "don't do this" or A's "give herself over to me" as being about sex. I thought they were referring mostly to Xena's offer of her sword on his behalf (with the body wielding it being a nice perk). The sex was simply their way of consummating the deal. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:32:38 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> - ----- Original Message ----- From: "KTL" > "And of course we all realized this was an homage to Casablanca, where when the Nazis are in Rick's club and singing their German songs, Victor Lazo begins to sing La Marseillaise, the French National Anthem and the crowd takes it up and with fine Gallic flair, outsings them Nazis. It was a great scene in the movie." Welll... we didn't all realize the homage to Casablanca. In fact I didn't realize it until you pointed it out. > > " Hmmm. I think all of the above is true and yet I don't think that Athena is wrong to act as she does. We all have strong senses of self-preservation. Or else our genes wouldn't be swimming in the gene pool anymore. Perhaps she is right but I think she should have realized that the Fates are nothing if not enigmatic about their prophecies. Before she strated lobing dead cows into Amphipolis she might have pondered just what the Fates meant. Did they actually mean that the baby would kill the gods or did her birth merely mean these a new god in town who might be threat to them? What makes her so sure that killing Eve would make the prophecy invalid? For the goddess of wisdom she have thought about the unintended consequences. The Amphipians weren't all that disposed to oppose her until she showed up threatening one of their own. She forced the town to chose between her and the chance that Eli was right - people don't need the gods. > " Some fans complained that they didn't like Xena using her body to get what she wanted - well the body was the bait but it was Xena's cleverness that got her what she wanted." It is odd but today we see sexual trickery as somehow shameful yet in the ancient myths and certainly in the Bible women using their femine wiles was considered heroic. Certainly Judith and Ester used their charms to save their people and Ruth the most revered of the Biblical heroines certainly used a sexual trick to secure her and her mother-in-laws security. So Xena using her obvious charms to save her village and her family is that tradition. > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:09:49 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? In a message dated 12/12/02 4:23:58 PM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << > I gotta agree with you (except for the doofi part ). This is the woman > who pranced around as Autolycus' concubine "Cherish" and never hesitated to > use her body as a weapon of seduction. It took me awhile to realize that I > had more concern about Xena's pride and reputation than Xenastaff did. Oh I think they had a great deal of concern about Xena's pride and rep. It just was that they wrote her to just do what she had to do and never to worry about what anybody else thought. >> LOL! That's what I meant. I had *my* idea of what was "appropriate" for her, which sometimes didn't match what Xenastaff allowed her to do. Mind you, I liked that they let her be "herself" (as Lucy interpreted her) and didn't worry about pleasing everybody (characters or fans). That doesn't mean they didn't care about her ultimately being seen as honorable, skilled-- or accepted as flawed -- etc. But sometimes I cared less about the mission, than what she had to do to accomplish the mission. Once I reconciled myself to focusing on the mission or on Xenastaff's interpretation of the character, I didn't get so hung up on how she did something or the way she looked carrying it out. Many of us have said that "Xena wouldn't do that," when it probably has more to do with *our* view of what she ought to do. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:12:56 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Daley" > > Works for me, I can see a Sean Conneryesq Ulysses. I think someone was working on a "Xena hits the sack with every male hero in antiquity" arc. Thank the Goddess "Ulysses" nipped it in the bud. Yes indeed - well until King Con at least. Of course I don't think Xena hit the sack with Uly - she was still in the courting stage. I however liked the idea of meeting up with Ulysses and yes a Sean Connory type would have worked well but if we got Sean (highly unlikly) then Xena hitting the sack with him would have been much more reasonable. > > > > 3. King Con - not airing it. > This episode was kind of hopeless. Although beating Joxer to a pulp was a high spot for some. The whole Rafe thing didn't fly, it was almost as if it was a forced mandatory "hetero" episode. Well Rafe just didn't seem to be Xena's kind of guy - a cheap crook just isn't her style. So I would have lost him and put Auto in his place. > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:33:35 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? In a message dated 12/12/02 4:56:50 PM Central Standard Time, fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: << She's not grovelling, she's scamming. All she needs to know is that she could, even after that beating, have flipped around on that rope and killed Gurkhan with ease. >> I agree with the not grovelling, but I don't think she was in any shape at that point to do more than bleed. Heck, she could only stagger a few feet before collapsing, once they freed her. That was even more powerful to me, because all she had to rely on was her will to survive and wits. Remember when she told that harem girl to think of her boyfriend to get her through the hard times? I think that's why she "saw" Gabby -- to give her confidence, to remind her why she had to make it and to give her the energy to see the opportunity in Gurkhan's questions. I read somewhere that they cut out a scene where Xena was drugged, which would've explained why she didn't fight back. Given what we did see, they could've chained her while she was unconscious and hurt her pretty seriously then. I chose to believe that she could've fought back early on, but didn't, to protect the mission and because it might've been too difficult to fight her way to Gabs and get everybody out safely. In a way, that heightened the poignancy and extent of what she endured -- because she had been reduced to physical helplessness for once. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:37:52 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list In a message dated 12/12/02 6:12:57 PM Central Standard Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: << > > Works for me, I can see a Sean Conneryesq Ulysses. I think someone was working on a "Xena hits the sack with every male hero in antiquity" arc. Thank the Goddess "Ulysses" nipped it in the bud. Yes indeed - well until King Con at least. Of course I don't think Xena hit the sack with Uly - she was still in the courting stage. >> Heh. Sure seemed like they planned more than courting when they left poor Gabs listening in on her bunk. She certainly seemed to think she'd better cover her ears. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:51:44 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Top Ten List > Kt said, > "The Quill didn't make any cut" > > Coming late to this discussion, I assume you all are talking about > favorite episodes again. Yeah, we're doing our favorites again. I'm just a big ol' Xenaho, so any Lucy Lite eps never make my best ten list. But yeah, this was a good ep--for a Xena lite one. I didn't whine too much during it. The beginning scene, with Xena sewing (that just ALWAYS cracks me up), showing her twitchy sense working when Aphrodite comes around and her exasperation with Gab were fun to watch. And I liked Renee's little bit of sniffing at the parchment. Before computers, I used to get a thrill at cracking open brand new notebooks every year for school. Especially those black marble ones--the ones with ringed spines were not near so fine to handle. The pristine beauty of the unmarred page was VERY satisfying to run one's fingers over. > > I have to say that The Quill is mightier still has for me one of the > funniest scenes in the series. > > The one where Ares comes plummeting to the ground after GAbrielle > writes, ("and the power of war vanished from the earth")("where are my > power!? What did you do to my powers!?), and then soon after when > Aphrodite comes kerplunk plummeting out of the sky onto Ares' head and > takes him out, after Gabrielle writes, (" the force that enchanted the > scroll has lost its power"). > > Funny funny. Yeah, Alex was particularly good in this one. I think this one, Motherhood and Fins, Femmes and Gems have my favorite Aphrodite scenes. KT > > Hi, everyone! > > Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:35:02 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] The Comedies and Ubers > writes: > > << Yup. And what cracks me up about the whole uber fan-fic thing is that it > all comes to us from a Joxer's descendent's scroll. The story in the Xena > Scrolls is not from a Gabrielle scroll. Either Jacques Sur wrote it or > his modern day descendent who claimed he found it wrote it. Or perhaps > either one of them wrote all the scrolls that the stories came from. >> > > It's been awhile since I've watched The Xena Scrolls, but iirc, near the end > of the ep when Jack was getting on his motorcycle to leave, his bag got > switched with Dr. Covington's and that's how he and his descendants came to > be in possession of the scrolls. > > I just can't let KT get away with not giving Gabby full credit for all her > writings. Sure ya can! Close your eyes and think of Macedonia! At least not when there's room for argument. > > XWPacolyte I perhaps didn't phrase this well enough. My main point is that the story in the Xena Scrolls is absolutely not Gabrielle written. Joxer's descendent is the one who tells this story about the scrolls that were found in his grandfather's attic. And what great shape they're in for their age! (Especially after whizzing around on a motorcycle and being stored in a an attic for 50 years or so...) Tantalizingly enough, in Clones there is a reference to "The tomb of the scrolls." Were these the ones left over after Mel, Janice and Jack took off? Did they survive the explosion and the cave in? Or is there another cache of scrolls elsewhere? Now the Clones story--who the hell wrote THAT one? ARGH!!!! In the Xena Scrolls ep, Gabrielle is probably either dead or living somewhere in another body. (Whereas Xena seems to be a free agent at the moment, able to pop into Mel's body for a visit. So Xena was either in the Reincarnation Waiting Room, or there's a flaccid body somewhere lying around unanimated. Maybe the Guber's a cop and finds it and takes it to a morgue and then voila! when Xena's spirit gets back and she crawls out of the drawer, they can start their uber life together. HEY--now's there's a good name for a Xuber--Voila. Voila Vixen (pronounced of course, Wallah Wixen). Let me crack open a new notebook and start that story...) So that one ep is most definitely not from a Gabrielle scroll. Another non-gab scroll is the story told in the Between the Lines ep, which starts off with a saying about Karma superimposed on the screen. This is identified as being from the "Blue Scroll -- Author unknown". So there's at least these and the Clones eps AND Deja Vu and Soul Possession that are not Gab scrolls. Hmmm. More than I realized. And yeah, I was mainly teasing about ALL the scrolls having possibly been written by one of Joxer's descendents. Although that COULD have happened from this ep since the switch of the bags occurs within this ep which is a Joxer descendent told ep. Am I clear now? Or still a little fuzzy? KT (Nice to hear from you!) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:02:05 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > fsktl@aurora.uaf.edu writes: > > << G. Ares, if you make her do this, she will never love you. > A: You think she'd really give herself to me to save Eve? > G: Has she ever said anything she doesn't mean? > A. (said very deliberately) Thank you. > G. Don't do it. > > At first, I found these lines very strange.I didn't understand Gabrielle's > choice of a consequence here, that if Xena has sex with Ares, this turns > her into a vicious killer. (She already is that.) And then I realized > that perhaps Gabrielle was trying to get him to believe that she believed > that if Xena had sex with Ares, she WOULD become his warrior queen, like > he's wanted for so long. That she wouldn't be able to resist his pull > once they had sex. She would go back to being the warlord, ultimately the > conqueror perhaps. I believe Gabrielle is playing with his vanity. > >> > > See, I didn't interpret G's "don't do this" or A's "give herself over to me" > as being about sex. I thought they were referring mostly to Xena's offer of > her sword on his behalf (with the body wielding it being a nice perk). The > sex was simply their way of consummating the deal. I think we're saying the same thing. Ares wants Xena as his warrior queen. Except that unlike in the past, Ares definitely wants Xena's body in his bed as part of her new alliance with him. And Xena knows this--hence the flasher look she adapts as her new fashion style. Surely you don't think it was going to be sex just this one time? I think that Ares' talk about now being a "mortal god" is honest and heartfelt. That once he knows that his existence will end, he wants to be sure he has something memorable in his life's journey and that he leaves something behind to mark his having been here. As mortals do. And to him that's having Xena by his side, in his bed, making babies with her. And I still say Gabrielle was playing to his vanity, to his sense of power, privilege and persuasian. And it probably KILLED her to do so. Grin. KT > > -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:17:28 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> > "And of course we all realized this was an homage to Casablanca, where when > the Nazis are in Rick's club and singing their German songs, Victor Lazo > begins to sing La Marseillaise, the French National Anthem and the crowd > takes it up and with fine Gallic flair, outsings them Nazis. It was a great > scene in the movie." > > Welll... we didn't all realize the homage to Casablanca. In fact I didn't > realize it until you pointed it out. Oh. Hmmm this came up I guess on other lists, so I thought we all did realize this. > > > > > " Hmmm. I think all of the above is true and yet I don't think that Athena > is wrong to act as she does. We all have strong senses of self-preservation. > Or else our genes wouldn't be swimming in the gene pool anymore. > > Perhaps she is right but I think she should have realized that the Fates are > nothing if not enigmatic about their prophecies. Absolutely true. Before she strated lobing > dead cows into Amphipolis she might have pondered just what the Fates meant. > Did they actually mean that the baby would kill the gods or did her birth > merely mean these a new god in town who might be threat to them? Again, good point. What makes > her so sure that killing Eve would make the prophecy invalid? Ooooo, hey, that's a GREAT point! That's very true--the Fates said that once the child is born, Zeus is no longer the boss. They didn't say anything about her having to continue to live to bring this about. For the > goddess of wisdom she have thought about the unintended consequences. The > Amphipians weren't all that disposed to oppose her until she showed up > threatening one of their own. She forced the town to chose between her and > the chance that Eli was right - people don't need the gods. Well, not these gods. The villagers talk about switching over to Eli's god. And yeah, I'm with you also on Eve being one of them. But wow--these are the same folks (and/or their children) who will turn against Cyrene and burn her at the stake as a witch in her later years. Damn. KT > > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:30:46 -0600 From: Lilli Sprintz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Top Ten List KTL wrote: >I'm just a big ol' Xenaho, so any Lucy Lite eps never make my best ten >list. > Ah, yes, and "Xena-light" ones are so refreshing. >The beginning scene, with Xena sewing (that just ALWAYS cracks me up), >showing her twitchy sense working when Aphrodite comes around > I just loved it when she did that, and sort of just looked around, like, "I know something funny is going on here, but I don't know what!" > I used to get a thrill at cracking open brand new notebooks every year for school. Especially those black marble ones--the ones with ringed spines were not near so fine to handle. > Just love talking with someone who know that computers are really not all there are out there, as I type away furiously at mine to communicate with you all. >Yeah, Alex was particularly good in this one. I think this one, Motherhood >and Fins, Femmes and Gems have my favorite Aphrodite scenes. > I am trying to remember, maybe someone else on the list remembers, reading somewhere (Whoosh?) that Alexander Tydings had taken a course in Feminist Theater, and for all that I don't like the stereotypes of how she had to play Aphrodite (still sexual candy), yet, she added so much intelligence to the role. I remember the scene in Punchlines, where she pulls up the chair with her bifocals on as she pretends to be Sigmund Freud, listening to Gabrielle's troubles, and it is so good how she did that. At one point in that scene, she pulls herself up suddenly into the chair, sort of jumping up and crosses her legs and listens, and it was so rarely I got to see Alexander Tydings being what/who I imagine she is like as a real person. Lilli ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:38:49 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] > > We could keep this up forever..... but there isn't much point. I'll > > concede that Hawaii is scenic... probably even more scenic than Dargaville... > > but these competitions are so subjective, aren't they? > > --Of course, which is why I originally said "no comment". ;) > > But then you just *hadda* mention sumpin' about Kilauea destroying the > entire island chain (which it hasn't done in 200+ years).....;P > > Besides, if KT and Liz/Sojourner can't agree, why should we?? ;) > > > --Jackie But Liz and I DO agree. That Alaska is the most beautiful place we've ever been and that New Zealand is almost as pretty as Alaska. ;-> I have traveled a fair amount and New Zealand was the first place to jolt me into feeling that "This place is almost as pretty as Alaska." I seriously would like to retire there, since it's not quite so cold as here. (I'm going to open a Chock Full O' Nuts coffee shop. They just don't DO regular coffee there--it's all this latte type stuff that they have weird names for like, "Flat white". Hoooo, I was almost reduced to tears some mornings trying to get an honest, no frills cup of coffee to wake me up. Of course, I'm too old for them to want me--they got some STRINGENT rules for immigration over there. But I figure not lots of locals would be trying to open a Chock Full O' Nuts cafe. New Zealand's GORGEOUS. Well, we've all seen the scenary on the show. Actually, what I responded to in En Zed was that it looks very much like Alaska. It has mountains that are perpetually covered in snow, it has fjords, it has lush forests, it has that alpine desert area (where Chin was set), it has a small population density and it's also on the ocean. It's actually like a shetland pony version of Alaska. But it's a hell of a lot more compact and more easy to get around--I believe that Liz told me that anywhere in the country, you're no more than about 40 minutes from the sea. On that score, it's got Alaska beat. Oh and the people there are fantastic. Super friendly, nice, easy-going. Again, they reminded me of Alaskans on that score too. The only landscape that I find as intriguing as AK/NZ is the desert of the American Southwest and the Baja territory of Mexico. I think those areas are also astoundingly beautiful but it's just too darn hot (even in the dead of winter) for me to be able to live there. You know I think that the sheer beauty of this exotic local (for those of us not from there, it's exotic) certainly was a factor in the popularity of the show. As Rob said, he was looking for a pristine, ancient world look. Not something you see on every other show out there. And Lucy in her early interviews was just so unique, so witty, so self-deprecating in her joking, so gorgeous and just so "fresh" and exotic a creature since she was from away, from New Zealand (or Australia as most folks said until she corrected them) that I think this also garnered a lot of attention for the show. Lucy worked hard in many ways to make this show the success it was. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #339 **************************************