From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #338 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, December 12 2002 Volume 02 : Number 338 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] ["Jackie M. Young" > [cr ] [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [KTL ] [chakram-refugees] RE: <> [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [KTL ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? [KTL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:45:35 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Bottom 5 list In a message dated 12/11/2002 5:41:14 PM Central Standard Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > There are so many good Xena episodes that it really is hard > to come up with just a top ten. So why don't we try a bottom 5 list. Mine would be (beginning with the least favored): 1.For Him the Bell Tolls 2. Lifeblood 3. Forget Me Not 4. Ten Little Warlords 5. King of Assassins, Purity or Back in the Bottle It's not that I think these are bad eps or that I didn't find them entertaining. Most are simply too Xena-lite for me, so are among the ones I'm least inclined to view again. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:04:24 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, cr wrote: > On Monday 09 December 2002 13:25, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > --*No comment*, since the tourism destination *facts* show Hawai'i has you > > guys beat.....;P LOL > > Yep, the most scenic thing being a whacking great volcano that will one day > erupt for real and - bye bye Hawaii. ;) - --Hmmm, Thel, you obviously haven't been here before....;P The volcano's only _semi_-active, and it's on the Big Island, which is south of all the other main islands, so if it erupts big-time (which it hasn't for years), all the lava'll just flow into the ocean. And there's *tons* of more scenic spots than Kilauea; there's the snow on Mauna Kea, the lush valleys on Kaua'i (where Jurassic Park filmed twice), breath-taking Haleakala on Maui (which is non-active), and the black-sand beaches of Waimea on the Big Island. Even one of your countrymen (a faculty member from NZ) was very impressed by the Windward side and North Shore of O'ahu, the most populated island, when I took him and his wife around recently. ;P So, nah-nah-nah......;P (check what LL said in my sig block below ;P ) *Hehehe!* - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:11:50 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 12 December 2002 03:04, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:22:13 +1300 cr wrote: > > Not necessarily. Xena didn't say > > 'impossible', just 'not easy'. Most > > certainly, Xena's dark side and Callisto's > > spirit are, IMO, inheritable. > > Yes she said "not easy to change" but she had already declared Livia a > monster. I just didn't like the whole reasoning that because Xena and > Callisto were at one time evil or at least very bad Livia was predistined > to be dark or even evil. What Callisto and Xena had was a strong will and > a determined nature plus they were very smart this doesn't make you > predisposed to evil or even darkness - their environment make them turn > those attributes to darkness and violence. Livia didn't have to be dark or > a monster and still she could have exhibited all her mothers' qualities. > > CherylA Yeah *but* - having had a whole 25 years for Ares to work on her.... what do you call that if not 'environment'? And having been influenced that way, her strong will and determined nature would make it just that much harder to persuade her otherwise. IMO. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:06:05 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] On Thursday 12 December 2002 20:04, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > > --*No comment*, since the tourism destination *facts* show Hawai'i has > > > you guys beat.....;P LOL > > > > Yep, the most scenic thing being a whacking great volcano that will one > > day erupt for real and - bye bye Hawaii. ;) > > --Hmmm, Thel, you obviously haven't been here before....;P The volcano's > only _semi_-active, and it's on the Big Island, which is south of all the > other main islands, so if it erupts big-time (which it hasn't for years), > all the lava'll just flow into the ocean. > > And there's *tons* of more scenic spots than Kilauea; there's the snow on > Mauna Kea, the lush valleys on Kaua'i (where Jurassic Park filmed twice), > breath-taking Haleakala on Maui (which is non-active), and the black-sand > beaches of Waimea on the Big Island. > > Even one of your countrymen (a faculty member from NZ) was very impressed > by the Windward side and North Shore of O'ahu, the most populated island, > when I took him and his wife around recently. ;P > > So, nah-nah-nah......;P (check what LL said in my sig block below ;P ) > > *Hehehe!* > --Jackie Ahh. You have snow? We have *more* snow. You have black sand beaches? We have black sand beaches, Xena was filmed on one. (Maybe not as black as yours, I don't know). Now, have you got rivers? Fjords? Glaciers? ;-) We could keep this up forever..... but there isn't much point. I'll concede that Hawaii is scenic... probably even more scenic than Dargaville... but these competitions are so subjective, aren't they? cr Incidentally, .and leaving competitions aside for once, I think Kilauea must rate as Hawaii's no 1 attraction simply because it's just about unique in the world. I don't believe there's another volcano to match it. Whereas the rest of the scenery is great (I've seen photos) but not unique. ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:30:26 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] XWP come to Japan finally Wow YI-YI-YI! On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, cr wrote: > Well, one could ask, since it will apparently be seen by very few people in > Japan, does the casting really matter? - --Well, yes, because there are communities of Japanese people in other parts of the world other than Japan that will see the show. I.e., Hawai'i, LA, NY, etc. ;P > As Sojourner noted, most other > ethnic types in the series were non-authentic too, including most notably > Greeks and Romans, but also Arabs of all kinds.... - --Agreed. And I'm sure if people of those other countries were to see the actors, they would scoff at the casting, too. But at least TPTB could've tried to stay away from white guys playing non-white guys, which looks *really obvious* and *really bad* IMO. ;P > But I was more interested in the depiction of Japanese characters and culture > in the episode, and whether this is seen by Japanese viewers to be a major > defect, or whether they're resigned to being inaccurately depicted in foreign - --*Hehe!* But if it's not being shown in *Japan*, why would it matter? ;P (BTW, there are other places outside of Japan where people know about Japanese tradition, culture, etc. [see above] ;P ) Katsu may be resigned to this, but _I'm_ not. ;P (Especially since info is so readily available on the subject matter, even in Pasadena, about a block away from the Convention Center, at the Asian-American Museum...;P ) YIYIYIYI!!! ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 01:38:31 -0600 From: "H.J.J. Hewitt" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] XWP come to Japan 2 Dare one battle wits with the illustrious cr? Only if very brave...(or foolhardy), but here goes! >Well, most audiences in the rest of the world don't know much about Greek >myth either. Technically... true. But Amazon Indians and New Guinea highlanders aside, European audiences would be far more familiar with Greek myth than Yanks. As would Aussies and Kiwis. >Well, the subtext isn't that obvious, unless people want to see it. NOT SO!!!!!! Admittedly, as a product of wishful thinking some people saw it before it actually existed. But once it became intentional, viewers would have had to be extremely unsophisticated, or in denial, to escape it. >'Gabrielle' is a modern French >name, not Greek at all (so far as I can tell). Well, no, it's not Greek; it's a Frenchified form of Hebrew... a well established element in X:WP. >It was a modern American series (that acquired a trace of >Kiwi flavour) Viva la flavo\u/r!!! TEXena ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:22:40 -1000 (HST) From: "Jackie M. Young" Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, cr wrote: > Now, have you got rivers? Fjords? Glaciers? ;-) - --;=) We've got streams and lakes and tropical forests. And best, of all, a moderate climate year-round (i.e., none of that "Xena freezing her butt off in zero-degree weather for you" bit ;P ). ;) I think this is what I like best of all here, since I've been in freezing/sweltering weather on the mainland and elsewhere and it *ain't no fun*. ;( > We could keep this up forever..... but there isn't much point. I'll > concede that Hawaii is scenic... probably even more scenic than Dargaville... > but these competitions are so subjective, aren't they? - --Of course, which is why I originally said "no comment". ;) But then you just *hadda* mention sumpin' about Kilauea destroying the entire island chain (which it hasn't done in 200+ years).....;P Besides, if KT and Liz/Sojourner can't agree, why should we?? ;) - --Jackie ****************************************************** * Proud to have the same birthday as Lucy Lawless! * * * * "I think New Zealand geographically comes from * * ... Hawai'i." --Lucy Lawless, Late Show, 4/9/96 * * * * JACKIE YOUNG, JYOUNG@LAVA.NET * * * ****************************************************** ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:22:31 +1300 From: cr Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: OT: States/Countries [was: Top Tens Revisited 2002-style] On Thursday 12 December 2002 21:22, Jackie M. Young wrote: > > Now, have you got rivers? Fjords? Glaciers? ;-) > > --;=) We've got streams and lakes and tropical forests. > > And best, of all, a moderate climate year-round (i.e., none of that > "Xena freezing her butt off in zero-degree weather for you" bit ;P ). ;) > I think this is what I like best of all here, since I've been in > freezing/sweltering weather on the mainland and elsewhere and it *ain't no > fun*. ;( Depends what you call 'moderate', because I expect if you stood on the beach in whatever passes for a winter there in a Xena outfit with a stiff onshore breeze, you'd start to feel a bit chilly. Auckland has what is generally regarded as a moderate climate, by comparison with most places. (That 'zero-degree weather' reference of Lucy's was with regard to the Celsius (Centigrade) scale that we use, not Fahrenheit, so zero degrees is freezing point, not 32 below! ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:04:21 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] XWP come to Japan 2 On Thursday 12 December 2002 20:38, H.J.J. Hewitt wrote: > Dare one battle wits with the illustrious cr? Only if very brave...(or > foolhardy), but here goes! > > >Well, most audiences in the rest of the world don't know much about Greek > >myth either. > > Technically... true. But Amazon Indians and New Guinea highlanders aside, > European audiences would be far more familiar with Greek myth than Yanks. > As would Aussies and Kiwis. Yes, *but* - other than a vague idea that Zeus was some sort of god, and Hercules some sort of hero, how much did the average audience member know about Greek myth? Virtually zero, I'd say. And it didn't matter at all, because it's entirely unnecessary to know *any* Greek myth to understand and/or enjoy XWP. Take - ummm, Looking Death in the Eye for example. All you need to know to understand that is that Athena, Hephaestus etc are some sort of gods (and you can get that from watching previous episodes just as well as from Greek myth, and I think it's evident from the context of the episode anyway); that Ares is a god who has the hots for Xena (and you'll get that from previous eps, but *not* from Greek myth); that Eve has been prophesied by the Fates as bringing about the death of the gods (again, from previous eps, not myth); and that Celesta is the Goddess of Death. This is new to the series (unless one remembers back to Death in Chains), and while myth may help, Celesta was a pretty obscure god so far as I can tell, which is why they made it obvious from the context of the episode who she was. I had no trouble folowing that reference, and my prior knowledge of Celesta in myth was zero. In other words, even for somebody totally ignorant of Greek myth, the plot would be no harder to pick up than ijn any ongoing serial where you have a set of recurring heroes and villains. > >Well, the subtext isn't that obvious, unless people want to see it. > > NOT SO!!!!!! Admittedly, as a product of wishful thinking some people saw > it before it actually existed. But once it became intentional, viewers > would have had to be extremely unsophisticated, or in denial, to escape it. What is this "in denial" crap? Sorry, it's just that phrase really gets on my wick. It implies that the alleged 'fact' is obvious to *everybody* except the person you're disagreeing with. It is obvious that X and G are close friends, yes, unmistakeably. It is not at all obvious or explicit that they're 'gay'. It may appear that way to an exceptionally uptight strait-laced audience who regard shows of emotion with suspicion (or, as a case of wishful thinking, to a gay one) but there are plenty of cultures around the world where shows of emotion and affection such as X and G show are considered quite normal, and certainly not unusual, between friends. That does *not* mean they're unsophisticated, btw. How a Japanese audience would regard it (bearing in mind it's Westerners who are exhibiting the symptoms) I don't know, it would depend on the Japanese view of Westerners in general, I suppose. > >'Gabrielle' is a modern French > >name, not Greek at all (so far as I can tell). > > Well, no, it's not Greek; it's a Frenchified form of Hebrew... a well > established element in X:WP. Yes, *but* Gabrielle is supposed to be Greek. From Poteidaia. Not the slightest suggestion (other than her name) of any foreign ancestry. I was just using her name as one example, but there are plenty throughout the series. Rafe. Joxer (doesn't sound Greek to me). Dagnine. Hower. Minya. Hidsim. And so on. I could be wrong about some of those, since I know no Greek, but I suspect if I did, I'd be able to point to a swag more names that aren't 'right'. > >It was a modern American series (that acquired a trace of > >Kiwi flavour) > > Viva la flavo\u/r!!! > > > TEXena Thank you. We do still use English spelling here, mostly, in defiance of Micro$oft's best efforts..... ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 02:27:53 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Cheryl Ande wrote: > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > > This one of my favorite episodes. It has a great guest star, Paris Jefferson > as Athena, a nifty plot twist, good action, and a good showcase for Xena. AND it was the first time all year we'd seen Lucy in her Xena suit. That alone made it hit the top of my charts. Damn, I'd MISSED seeing her as her iconic self every week. I remember yelling "YES!" at the screen when she came catapulting in. And it had Xena and Ares getting each other all hot and bothered, lusted up and frustrated. I ALWAYS enjoy that. (With much respectful snippage for bandwidths sake) > > Athena is confident that the town will not go against its protector but > she is surprised. In a wonderful scene Athena with an air of deep concern > tells the people of Amphipolis to turn the child over. Xena who has made a > plea on her child's behaft, I believe, half expects the townspeople to turn > against her. It is then that Cyrene turns the tables - she will not give up > her granddaughter and sings the Amphipolis anthem. The townspeople join her, > declaring their independence from the gods and drowning out Athena as she > tries to convince them to give up the child. And of course we all realized this was an homage to Casablanca, where when the Nazis are in Rick's club and singing their German songs, Victor Lazo begins to sing La Marseillaise, the French National Anthem and the crowd takes it up and with fine Gallic flair, outsings them Nazis. It was a great scene in the movie. Hmmm--I just realized that this is why in The Making of Gurkhan tape, Lucy knows that Darien knows that song. > She has poisoned the water. Whatever happened with that? Or was this just to heighten the tensions--that could be it--that this made trying to wait out the seige untenable. > > Xena now calls on Ares. In a temple (I was going to say his temple but I'm > betting it was Athena's - more irony) That WOULD have been kewl. But unfortunately, Cyrene says at the end, "Gabrielle, you blew up Ares' temple." And Gabrielle answers, "We had to start the battle somehow. (Then to Xena) Otherwise, you would have had to have gone through with the deal-- right?" Now I'm not sure WHY blowing up Ares' temple necessarily started the battle. Just because Athena would feel it was blasphemous? Shrug. > > Great episode. Paris Jefferson's Athena is a fascinating character. Athena is > not evil - she appears to be rational, civil and even compassionate. She > however is as obessed as Zeus with Eve but now there is the added element of > revenge. She blames the child for her father's death. Ares points out that > Eve did not kill Zeus - it was his obession that forced Hercules to kill him. > A baby cannot hurt them. Athena will not listen. She will destroy anyone in > her way to get to the baby. Her ruthlessness more than anything else turns > the people against her - she destroys any goodwill the people have for her. > Her worshippers dessert her because of her own actions. She proves Gabrielle > right - the gods don't care about the people only themselves. Athena perhaps > the best of the gods is no different than the worst of the gods when her own > self-interest is on the line. Hmmm. I think all of the above is true and yet I don't think that Athena is wrong to act as she does. We all have strong senses of self-preservation. Or else our genes wouldn't be swimming in the gene pool anymore. The point of the end of the Greek gods I think was that it was inevitable. Religions do come and go, mostly riding on the backs of conquerors who bring their own religions to the new lands. So I really don't know what the Greek gods could have done differently. They HAD to try to prevent Eve from killing them off. Zeus was told by the Fates that he would rule until a child not begotten of man would be born. Sure sounded like it might be Eve. But in true XWP style, we get teasings that what we think we know is true just might not be so. Or at least, not so simple as we think. Some fans complained that they didn't like Xena using > her body to get what she wanted - well the body was the bait but it was Xena's > cleverness that got her what she wanted. I had a LONG discussion on this on the Xenaverse, when some of the folks on there stated that Xena offering herself to Ares was nothing but rape and that the XWP staff should be ashamed of themselves. (One of the most vocal people admitted she hadn't even watched the ep--she was working off nothing but the coming attractions. heh.) I agree with you--it was just Xena using her body and her incredible sexy charisma to win allies to help her gain her goal. Just like guys like James Bond do to women all the time in their movies. Classic bad boy adventure hero. And classic Xena move too--she's NEVER hesitated to use her looks and her body to help her in her quest. > > Some good lines also; > > > Athena to Ares: "I am about catapult dead cows into the town." I LOVED the wild wooliness of that line. Wonder if we can get Paris to say that at the con next February... > > Gabrielle to Eve as they watch Xena kick butt: "Shh Mommy's working" Yes--loved that too. KT > > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 02:43:58 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: [chakram-refugees] Amphipolis again s l i n g t h a t c o w I want to weigh in also on the Xena tricked him argument. I thought she did when I first saw it. And indeed, Lucy plays Xena as being slightly embarassed when she tosses the doll over and says, "You saved my dollie". That, probably more than anything else made me go back and rewatch the seduction scene. Xena goes to Ares' temple to start her seduction. She calls him to appear. She initiates contact. X: Ares, I believe we discussed a deal. A: Deal, deal, deal, deal, deal. I don't know. Did we? X: Cut the crap. I'm ready to bargain. (And note she says, "Bargain", not accede to your wishes.) X: You fight beside me and we can defeat Athena. (Short discussion by Ares about how this will make him a pariah on Olympus.) A: So, what's in it for me? X: What's in it for you? ME. X: You help me defeat Athena and I'm yours. A: Mine? X: For years, you've been wanting me to be your warrior queen. Well, I'm offering you my sword. And the body that wields it. (And after a short dialogue on Olympus being doomed, ) X: You want immortality. A child is immortality. A legacy. A lineage. You help me save my daughter and you will be her father. Through her we can live forever. (Note how she never promises to bear him a child-just that he can be Eve's step-father. And just what would his relationship be then to Eve's stepmother, Gabrielle? Hmmm.) (Ares hesitates, then says) "Xena I'm..." X: I'm offering you everything you've ever wanted. Take it. (Kiss. Kiss. Kiss. Then Ares pulls away.) A: NO. No you don't. (Xena is stunned-Lucy gives this GREAT look of disbelief. Heh.) "Whaaat?" A: You're up to something. I have desired you from the very first time I saw you in battle. And now, after all these years, after all the games, the cat and the mouse, will I?, won't I?, Ares, I'm yours, take me, well, I'm sorry. It's too easy. X: I am offering you a deal and I don't go back on my promises. A: No, no you don't. But you always come up with some way to mess with my head. And Ares leaves. Refusing to be victimized for her plans, used for her strategy, he walks out on her. Since Ares refused to play, more manipulation is needed. More bait. We see Gabrielle stepping in to help Xena spring her trap. She calls for Ares. And he comes to her. G: Ares! Ares, I need to talk to you! A: Well, aren't I Mr. Popular? (He is PISSED, suspicious and wary. He ain't stupid.) G: I'm not here to play games. (Uh-huh) I know that Xena made an offer to you. A: You're telling the story. G. If you lay a hand on her, I swear... A: WHAT! You'll do what? G: If you accept, you will destroy Xena. You will turn her into exactly what she used to be-a vicious killer. A: Yeah, well, I kind of liked that Xena. G: Did you? Then why are you so obsessed with who she is now? Tell me you don't feel anything for the real Xena. The good Xena. (Actually, Gabrielle is wrong-he has ALWAYS been obsessed with Xena. When she's bad and when she's good and when she's half good and when she's half bad. He wants her any way she is.) G. Ares, if you make her do this, she will never love you. A: You think she'd really give herself to me to save Eve? G: Has she ever said anything she doesn't mean? A. (said very deliberately) Thank you. G. Don't do it. At first, I found these lines very strange.I didn't understand Gabrielle's choice of a consequence here, that if Xena has sex with Ares, this turns her into a vicious killer. (She already is that.) And then I realized that perhaps Gabrielle was trying to get him to believe that she believed that if Xena had sex with Ares, she WOULD become his warrior queen, like he's wanted for so long. That she wouldn't be able to resist his pull once they had sex. She would go back to being the warlord, ultimately the conqueror perhaps. I believe Gabrielle is playing with his vanity. (But of course, in reality, Xena and Gabrielle were kind of like two punks who pretend to offer sex but instead just roll a guy for his wallet.) Right after this scene, Ares tries to talk Athena out of killing Eve. She doesn't listen to his arguments about the Olympian gods acting out a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then he goes back to his temple and pounds the altar in frustration. And Xena is there, the spidah in her web. She welcomes him, playing the seductress. Being the mover and the planner again. Acting, not reacting. Her first words to him are: X: Areeees. So, are we going to seal this deal? Or what? And off they go sealing. And then we get bombus interruptus. Gabrielle blows up the place real good. Breaks up the temple and breaks up the assignation. While Xena is getting dressed, Ares says, A: You're making a mistake. I would have kept our bargain. X: I know you would have. I've got to do this my way. A: What a surprise. Now this bit of dialogue made me realize that Xena called off the deal at this point. Xena lets him know that her plans have changed. They no longer have an agreement. Xena, knowing Ares, expected him to attack Athena anyway and try to say she owed him. He HAD to in order for her plan to work. But she does tell him she was now doing something else. She just doesn't tell him what-the switch of the dollie for Eve. Xena needed to trick Ares into engaging Athena because Xena couldn't kill gods then. And unlike Ares who always backs down from his fights with Xena before he beats her to death, Athena was not going to stop fighting her until Eve was dead. And Ares was trumped yet again by the superior intellect and strategic planning ability of the WP. (And her ability to keep her fur coat on. I wonder if that was a rat skin coat.) And I accept that she "felt something" because she's a very sensuous, sexually charged person and she has always found Ares alluring. And has for a very long time. And Xena has also always gotten off on wielding power. She enjoys it. Just like she did when seducing Caesar in that cabin on her boat. It's obvious that she was enjoying every moment of that encounter also. Even if she's kind of ticked with herself that she did get into it in this case. I really liked her kind of exasperated mumbling, "I felt something." And I love her teasing of Gabrielle over it. Man, I love this ep. It's one of the best ones of the whole series to me. How can I possibly leave this one off my best list? *sigh* KT _____________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a message to majordomo@mlists.com with "unsubscribe xenaverse" in the message body ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 03:24:37 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? cr wrote: > >Yeah, it wasn't just the beating, it's the way she grovelled to Gurkhan. I > >just *cannot* see Xena ever doing that, whatever the circumstances. > > It was the MISSION, you doofuses (doofi?) (Sorry, just needed to use the > word doofi in a sentence). Xena would doing anything (including Mark > Antony) to complete the MISSION. Or vice-versa--"But Gab--I'm just completing the (ungh>...mission." She has no pride - which I'm guessing a > successful assassin cannot afford. She sneers at Virgil in the slave > selling scenes - but only when the slaver can't see her ... well not her > face anyway. > > Is this her strongest asset as a warrior? Being flawless as a character is > usually death in dramatic fiction - maybe that's why Rob designed this > perfect killing machine - and gave her no perfmornce weaknesses, just a > huge back-log of guilt to undermine her perfection... Ooooh, that's an intriguing take. Yeah you're right. Perfect people piss other people off. But Xena has this HUGE pool of "I'm so unworthy. I'm such slime. I'm only an angry, ass-kicking warrior." Or to quote Ares, (said in a whingy tone), "Oh I killed so many people. Oh the pain, the pain!" And that makes it okay, this attitude makes it okay that she's the best warrior, the best strategist, the best scammer, etc. etc. Some fans complain about how "Xena's always right." And that was always just such bogus nonsense to me. If Xena was always right, she wouldn't have had such a tragic life. She made some horrific mistakes, such as releasing the immortal Callisto to sic her on Velasca which of course later bit Xena in the butt when the evil Hope sucked Callisto in to be her gopher and help her torment Xena. (Though not allowing her to kill Solon--she wanted to do that herself.) So though she's sooooo good, her guilt as you say makes her feel unworthy. And so we can "feel her pain" with her and not see her as just an arrogant a-hoe. (Well, some of us can anyway.) oh and the pesky > blonde kid to get her into trouble.... Like she needs any help. Grin KT > > Sojourner ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:28:34 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] RE: <> On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:11:50 +1300 cr wrote: > > Yeah *but* - having had a whole 25 years for > Ares to work on her.... what do > you call that if not 'environment'? And > having been influenced that way, > her strong will and determined nature would > make it just that much harder to > persuade her otherwise. > > IMO. > > cr You know that's an excellant point. I hadn't thought about how soon Ares could have gottn to Eve. If he had been "tutoring" her for let's say ten years (probably at the age Xena was fighting Cortese) then yes I could see why Eve was like she was. Too bad this was mentioned in the episode it would have given Livia more motivation and maybe make her more sympathetic. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:09:21 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? > I gotta agree with you (except for the doofi part ). This is the woman > who pranced around as Autolycus' concubine "Cherish" and never hesitated to > use her body as a weapon of seduction. It took me awhile to realize that I > had more concern about Xena's pride and reputation than Xenastaff did. Oh I think they had a great deal of concern about Xena's pride and rep. It just was that they wrote her to just do what she had to do and never to worry about what anybody else thought. She's kind of like Howard Rouke in the Fountainhead that way. I remember being stunned when he became a quarry worker and his former architectural rivals could literally look down on him as he hewed rocks in the middle of the big city. And when someone in the book says something like, "How can you humiliate yourself this way?" He answers, "Huh? Why would I care what they think?" Xena however, does care about what a few people think of her. Gabrielle, Solon, Cyrene and actually all those folks who call for her to help them, knowing that she will. Like Lao Ma, Akemi, Cleopatra, Helen. But even though Xena cared a great deal about what Gabrielle thought of her (and suffered when she felt she wasn't living up to Gabrielle's expectations of how people should act), that was not so important to her as completing the mission. When it came to doing the mission or doing what Gab wanted, the mission always won. As in Gurkhan, as in the Price, as in going to Chin, as in staying dead to save the souls in FIN. I > often flinched at Lucy's "unXenalike" expressions and mannerisms, or at some > of the unseemly situations they put Xena in. Hmmmm. I can't think of much she ever did that bothered me or made me feel she was "unXenalike". But again I think this was due to my reaction to Lucy as Xena. Pretty much whatever she did, she did so "real" that I believed, yup, Xena'd do exactly that. The rare times she didn't--her dithering indecisiveness in One Against An Army, her giving up fighting for her and Gabrielle's lives in Fates, her bragging on her own nobility in Tsunami"...From me, nothing less"--they REALLY torque me. Because they stick out like sore thumbs in a huge otherwise totally believable body of work that deftly and beautifully created a real human being who happens to be the world's greatest warrior, reforming or othewise. But the character, as you say, > was who she was because of her focus on her "mission" and willingness to do > whatever it took, in circumstances anybody else would avoid. Whatever pride > she had was in succeeding, in doing that as honorably as she could -- without > worrying about how silly, stupid, servile, unattractive, incompetent, > impolite, or "cold" she seemed. > > -- Ife Amen. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:14:03 -0900 (AKST) From: KTL Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Who's Gurkhan? > > >Yeah, it wasn't just the beating, it's the way she grovelled to Gurkhan. > > > I just *cannot* see Xena ever doing that, whatever the circumstances. She's not grovelling, she's scamming. All she needs to know is that she could, even after that beating, have flipped around on that rope and killed Gurkhan with ease. Just like she did to the Roman soldiers in Destiny when she was crippled from having had her legs broken earlier that day. Little things like that don't slow her down. Unless it's not time to kill the enemy. When she took the beating, she didn't yet know who Sarah was. So sure she could kill Gurkhan and escape (first getting Gab, of course) but could she be certain she could identify Sarah and rescue her during the possible pandemonium that might ensue if she did so? Well, sure we know Xena could but that wasn't the way they wrote it. Rob has said in interviews in Chakram that he wanted to show just how much Xena loved Gabrielle. Just how much she would do to save her. And that's what Gurkhan and taking this beating is all about. But we hardly needed this episode to show that. It has always been the case that Xena will do anything, suffer anything, sacrifice anything to save and protect Gabrielle. I think for Xena, Gabrielle represented all the people Xena loved whom she had not been able to save in her past. Lyceus, M'Lila, Akemi, Solon, Lao Ma. Protecting Gabrielle, body and soul was a sacred mission to Xena. I've said before that in the uncharted land (for Xena) of doing good, physically protecting someone was one thing she could understand and focus on. And this is why Xena never wanted Gabrielle to be a warrior. "War is hard on the soul." Also, Gabrielle believed in Xena and fought for her when no one else, not even her mother would. Xena pays back. She has a huge sense of loyalty. And people know this--this is exactly why Helen, Lao Ma, Akemi, Cleopatra, Beowulf, all call for her to come make things right. > > It was the MISSION, you doofuses (doofi?) (Sorry, just needed to use the > > word doofi in a sentence). Xena would doing anything (including Mark > > Antony) to complete the MISSION. She has no pride - which I'm guessing a > > successful assassin cannot afford. > > Well, if it hadn't been for Gabby's intervention (but whe've been through > that before ;) she wouldn't have been in that position. Yeah, well, Xena intervened. But Gabrielle put them in a very dangerous position. This is why I'm not so certain how long Gab will live now that Xena's gone. Gabrielle (as Eve says) has a goal, but no plan. Xena knows this and sets off on her own, hoping to complete the mission before Gab wakes up from her drug-induced nap. Fortunately for the story, this doesn't happen. Gabrille not only has a dumb, simplistic approach--"I'll run in and knife him, yeah!" (and one wonders just how she got her little knife through Gurkhan's security force), but she also shows absolutely no sense of self-awareness. Xena knows Gabrielle will clutch. In fact, that's something that Xena loves about Gab--that she can't just kill in cold blood. In the heat of battle, yeah. But she's NOT an assassin. But when Gab suddenly realized, "Oooooo, I can't do THIS!" in the throne room, again, Xena would be caught up in saving Gab and Virgil and possibly not getting Sarah out also. So Xena takes the fall for her. It's what Xena does. And then she comes stepping very carefully back into the harem, standing upright until the guards are gone and then collapses into Gabrielles' arms, with no recrimination nor anger. Gabrielle just holds her, silently looking down at her. Thus proving once again that "Being the sidekick means never having to say you're sorry." (Now of course, had Gabrielle taken one smidgen of a beating like that because of Xena's impulsive stupidity and lack of self awareness, enraged howls would have been scorching through the Xenaverse. And we'd be reading angst ridden posts about it to this very day...) She woulda killed > Gurky and got away unharmed and un-humiliated. So the issue of her pride > (or dignity, or self-respect, or whatever you want to call it) would not have > arisen. > I'm telling ya, I read in Chakram that this was exactly what Rob wanted to show. The depths of Xena's love and commitment to Gab. AND, how else would you expect a person who says about EVERY movie, "It needed a fight" to show that? > Whatever the reason, I find that one of the most ucky moments in the whole of > XWP. > > cr > ... doofi Well yeah, it is. It's horrific. Whatever the reason. KT ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #338 **************************************