From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #314 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, November 15 2002 Volume 02 : Number 314 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] o/The Prisoner (was Re: Yet another Xener mention) [cr > [cr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:02:30 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 14 November 2002 06:03, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:08:53 +1300 cr wrote: > > > cande wrote: > ... But what happens when some god > shows up and wants another child - your > child? This is their opportunity to free themselves from being pawns of > the gods." > > cr replied: > " Now that seemed to me to be a dishonest > argument. Athena and the gods only > wanted Eve, and nobody else, and for a very > specific reason." > > OK how about this. The Fates are never specific about the child in > question just that it was not begotten by man. Once Zeus decides its > Xena's everyone just goes along. What if Athena kills Eve and the Fates > say oops wrong kid? I would say, given the developments in the whole rest of the storyline, that the chances of that happening are nil. > So Athena goes on the hunt for a different kid. The > gods also have children (Ares had one by Nemesis in a Herc episode). What > if its one of them and perhaps such a child is being hidden by its mother > so perhaps we should just kill off a generation of children (re: Harrod's > slaughter of the innocence). Also what if another prophecy comes along > demanding child sacrifice what then - people just meekly hand over thst > child next. Sp Gabrielle makes a powerful argument - hand over this child > then you say the gods have a right to demand any child's life. That's the 'thin edge of the wedge' argument, and it's almost always emotive, deceptive and as logically indefensible as it is effective, unfortunately. "Decriminalise marijuana and next thing, they'll be selling heroin to your kids!" "Let them ban concealed weapons and next thing, they'll want to take away your rifle." "Legalise homosexuality? What, do you *want* your children to be raped by queers?" It is *only* legitimate if the claimed consequence is probable. In the case of Amphipolis, the gods do not seem to have been in the habit of demanding child (or human) scarifices, and there is nothing to suggest that they were about to start. So I submit that the life expectancy of each Amphipolitan child at that point would be many hundreds of times better if the conflict was avoided (by handing over Eve) than if the town was destroyed by the attackers. And while I'm a Xena fan, I really don't know what claim Xena had on the town of Amphipolis to require it to risk destruction for her sake. Maybe as pay-back for her efforts in the far past, but they didn't seem too appreciative of those efforts in Sins of the Past, why the sudden change of heart? > "I was really unhappy about that. Not the > fact that Ares missed out on getting his reward (though I did feel a > little sorry for him on that account) but that Xena deceived him in that > way. It just seemed unworthy of her to > set him up using his feelings for her and lie > to him in that way." > > Poor Ares - I think he got what he deserved. He has in the past - gotten > Xena arrested for murder, impersonated her father in order to get her to > massacre a village, driven her mad so she would kill her mother, taken the > side of Dahak and Hope thus betraying his family and mankind, and tried to > extort sexual favors from Xena by holding her child's life hostage and now > finally he has been tricked and decieved and we should feel sorry for him. Yeah yeah yadda yadda, why bring up all that old stuff? ;) > Nope Xena was cleaver just cleaver than him - too bad. Not cleverer, just more deceptive and unscrupulous. The reason I'm unhappy about it is not because of Ares, it's because of Xena. Ares faithfully carried out his part of the deal. He fought on Xena's side and *he saved Eve*. (Because without him the battle would have been lost, I think). And Xena completely welshed on her side of the deal. Worse than that, she did so using a pretext so flimsy it was insulting. I'd almost rather she was upfront about it, "Well too bad, I lied to you!" And the other thing I'm unhappy about - I don't recall 'good' Xena ever lying to an ally before. Enemies, yes, but Ares was an ally on this occasion. In other words, the whole thing was completely unworthy of Xena. > > "I guess since Xena had arranged with Gabby to blow up the temple, it's > most likely that Gabby's > speech to Ares was part of the same plan." > > Obvious it was part of the plan not only because the blew up but also > because Xena was waiting for Ares right after he talked to Gabrielle. He > had rejected her offer why would she be waiting for him unless she knew he > would be convinced by Gabrielle. Rememeber Gabrielle summoned him so she > must have known about Xena's offer - would Xena have told her about her > plan in any other instance expect that Gabrielle would help her. > > CherylA Good point. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:10:55 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] o/The Prisoner (was Re: Yet another Xener mention) On Thursday 14 November 2002 07:04, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > cr responded: > >When it first screened, the idea of doors that opened by themselves and > >hidden cameras monitoring everything was, if not unheard-of, at least > >unusual. These days, any establishment that *didn't* have automatic > > doors and video surveillance would be the oddity. So as I say, I'm > > pleased that sufficient of the 'weirdness' has survived to impress you. > > The "weirdness" quotient now is, I think, largely due to the whole 60's > sensibility of it. The theme music, the production design, the > melodramatic delivery of the lines ... it's great. I have to say that certain actors have a knack for delivering lines, and Patrick McGoohan is one of them. I wouldn't say 'melodramatic', it's more that they somehow give the line more force than the actual words convey. > Though I have to say, the final bunch of episodes (from the "Avengers" > parody on to the very end) would be bizarre no matter what the era. Well yes, they're the sort of episodes you watch and then sit there for a while saying to yourself (or anybody else watching) "what was *that* about?" Be seeing you. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:16:25 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 14 November 2002 07:15, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > While we're talking about _Amphipolis Under Siege_, I have to point out the > one thing that really bugged me about the episode: the godawful costumes on > Athena's minions. This was the first episode where we really started to > miss Ngila Dickson. Yeah, they did look rather like androids from a '50's scifi B-movie, didn't they? > cr responded: > >I didn't like that either (for quite different reasons from my usual > >Gab-bashing, I'll have you know :). As you say, it was out of character. > >Since when did Gabby beat up people? Ones that hadn't physically > > attacked her, anyway. > > I didn't think it was that out of character. After what happened with > Hope, it made sense to me that Gabrielle would have a raging maternal > instinct toward Eve, up to and including roughing up anyone who would cause > harm to her. Well, I still found it surprising. I would have expected the typical Gabby to out-argue the guy, not resort to physical violence. > >I was really unhappy about that. Not the fact that Ares missed out on > >getting his reward (though I did feel a little sorry for him on that > > account) but that Xena deceived him in that way. It just seemed > > unworthy of her to set him up using his feelings for her and lie to him > > in that way. > > As Cheryl said, it was nothing Ares didn't deserve, many times over. How > many times over the years did he play Xena for his own nefarious > gain? Xena was more than due a chance at payback. At least she used it > for the purpose of saving her daughter. Well, as I pointed out at more length to Cheryl, it wasn't on account of Ares that I'm unhappy about it, but because it relfects on Xena's integrity IMO. Ares faithfully and effectively carried out his part of the deal, and Xena totally reneged on hers. > >And Ares kept pointing that out, and the other gods kept ignoring him.... > >and ended up, of course, proving him absolutely right. > > ... and ended up one of the only gods to survive, as well. Yeah. Maybe that was his reward. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #314 **************************************