From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #313 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, November 14 2002 Volume 02 : Number 313 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] Yet another Xener mention [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [] [chakram-refugees] o/The Prisoner (was Re: Yet another Xener mention) [me] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [meredith >) [Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Yet another Xener mention On Wednesday 13 November 2002 06:50, Meredith Tarr wrote: > Hi, > > cr noted re "The Prisoner": > > It seems to have an influence or reputation out of > > all proportion to the 17 > > episodes which comprised the entire series. > > True. But having just seen it for the first time over > the summer, I can totally understand why it has the > following it does. It's just so wonderfully, deeply > weird. I'm pleased to see it still has that effect on people. When it first screened, the idea of doors that opened by themselves and hidden cameras monitoring everything was, if not unheard-of, at least unusual. These days, any establishment that *didn't* have automatic doors and video surveillance would be the oddity. So as I say, I'm pleased that sufficient of the 'weirdness' has survived to impress you. > > They forgot to mention Monty Python, btw. > > I was going to point that out as well. Monty Python > is the king of cult tv, when you get right down to it. > > One thing about cult tv shows is that they keep > getting introduced to new generations via reruns. As > long as Oxygen owns the rights to X:WP, there's no way > that can happen. I know I keep beating this drum, but > it's an issue with me. Unless and until the rights > revert to an outlet that is actually available to even > a small majority of American televisions, X:WP is > going to die a slow death, relegated only to the > memory of the HCNB's like us who refuse to forget it. > And then it won't even be a "cult show" any more. > > Meredith (@work too) > meth@smoe.org I totally agree with you there. Of course, Oxygen's monopoly doesn't apply in the rest of the world, but like it or not, the US is a major slice of the Internet / TV / cult scene, and I'm sure Xena fandom is suffering because of it. (Because of Oxygen, that is, not because of the US influence ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:08:53 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Wednesday 13 November 2002 12:53, Cheryl Ande wrote: > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > > This one of my favorite episodes. It has a great guest star, Paris > Jefferson as Athena, a nifty plot twist, good action, and a good showcase > for Xena. > > Xena and Gabrielle with Eve return home to Amphipolis. What should have > been a happy reunion with Cyrene is destroyed when Athena besieges the > town. Athena wants Eve dead and she is willing to take Amphipolis hostage > to get her. Athena is confident that the town will not go against its > protector but she is surprised. In a wonderful scene Athena with an air od > deep concern tells the people of Amphipolis to turn the child over. Oh, the deeply felt, sincere hypocrisy ;) "If you don't do what I want I shall be forced reluctantly to kill you all. But I won't enjoy it." (My interpretation, not what she said). > Meanwhile Gabrielle is on the frontlines. One of the villagers is saying > that perhaps they should turn Eve over to Athena. Gabrielle grabs the > villager by the collar and tosses him like a ragdoll (I thought was a bit > out character). I didn't like that either (for quite different reasons from my usual Gab-bashing, I'll have you know :). As you say, it was out of character. Since when did Gabby beat up people? Ones that hadn't physically attacked her, anyway. > She then turns to the people and says that yes they could > turn the baby over and save themselves. But what happens when some god > shows up and wants another child - your child? This is their opportunity > to free themselves from being pawns of the gods. Now that seemed to me to be a dishonest argument. Athena and the gods only wanted Eve, and nobody else, and for a very specific reason. That had no implications for the future of any other children in the town. (I just would not make a good rabble-rouser :) > Back the temple Xena dressed only in a bearskin and smile awaits Ares. > Ares arrives ready to consumate the deal. But first Xena wants to make the > deal clear, Ares will fight with her against Athena and save Eve. Ares > with an armful of Xena readily agrees - with that settled Xena tosses Ares > on a couch is about to have her way with him But wait doesn't she hear > something - no nothing says Ares - but yes there is something - no no > nothing - then suddenly the temple wall blows up. And there stands a > shocked Cyrene staring at her unclothed daughter on top of the war god. > Cyrene however looks on the bright side - he is a god - no Apollo or Hermes > (outraged Ares: The guy with wings on his feet?!) but he will do. That scene was hilarious. Cyrene hastily turning Eve to look the other way. Xena saying "It's not what you think" and Ares saying "Yup, it is." (Having seen Apollo and Hermes on Herc, I agree totally with Ares' indignation at the comparison ;) > Ares and Athena begin to fight and Xena fights > Ilianus and Gabrielle sudenlly calls in reinforcements and the battle > begins again. This time townspeople are now winning. Ares isn't doing so > well against Athena but when she taunts him by asking him if he is worried > about his girlfriend he answere "no but you might be worried about your > girlfriend." A startled Athena turns just in time to see Xena skewer > Ilianus. This was one of the better fights, I think. Nicely choreographed and enjoyable to watch. > Ares is now ready to truly consumate the deal - he has fullfilled his end > of the deal. Wait says Xena he didn't fullfill all of the bargain. Ares > is justifiably angry - he did fight against Athena and he saved Eve. Just > as he says this she tosses him "Eve" - it is an ugly doll - "Nope you saved > my dollie". I was really unhappy about that. Not the fact that Ares missed out on getting his reward (though I did feel a little sorry for him on that account) but that Xena deceived him in that way. It just seemed unworthy of her to set him up using his feelings for her and lie to him in that way. I would rather she'd found some other way to do it, or some other escape clause, or else actually gone through with the deal. It was as if Xena had cheated him, and I don't like thinking of Xena as a cheat. I think I've managed to work out exactly why I'm uneasy about that. Ares *did* carry out his part of the deal, and Xena didn't. Ares did save Eve, in his intentions and in 'reality', because quite regardless of the fact that the 'baby' was a dummy, he helped defeat Athena's troops and therefore the real Eve (wherever she was) was saved. If he hadn't done that, Athena would have realised her mistake, gone in search of the real Eve in the defeated town, and killed her. So the 'dummy' excuse was just sophistry, and unworthy of Xena. > Xena and Gabrielle now walk > back to town however it wold appear Xena has some explaining to do about > what she exactly "felt" about Ares. Yeah, I loved that. Xena having a bit of fun with Gabby's rather straight-laced morality. > > Great episode. Paris Jefferson's Athena is a fascinating character. Athena > is not evil - she appears to be rational, civil and even compassionate. > She however is as obessed as Zeus with Eve but now there is the added > element of revenge. She blames the child for her father's death. Ares > points out that Eve did not kill Zeus - it was his obession that forced > Hercules to kill him. And Ares kept pointing that out, and the other gods kept ignoring him.... and ended up, of course, proving him absolutely right. > Also we have a great plot twist here. Although I was sure Xena had some > plan when she offerred herself to Ares, I had no idea Gabrielle was in on > it. In fact it is Gabrielle's little speech to Ares that made be wonder if > Xena might just be serious. Gabrielle was so sincere, so in character that > it seemed like a real plea to Ares to leave Xena alone. I took it the same way, too - as Gabrielle's own genuine appeal to Ares. Unlikely though it seems that Gabby would trust in Ares' better instincts, she has been known to be that ingenuous (read: naive :), I think, on occasion, and she certainly seemed sincere. With hindsight, I'm not sure which way to read it. I guess since Xena had arranged with Gabby to blow up the temple, it's most likely that Gabby's speech to Ares was part of the same plan. > Ares was completely > taken in as many of the audience. Some fans complained that they didn't > like Xena using her body to get what she wanted - well the body was the > bait but it was Xena's cleverness that got her what she wanted. I think Xena used whatever was available at the time and whatever was going to work. Half the population of Amphipolis was going to get killed helping defend Xena and her baby, which arguably was a worse thing to happen than letting the War God have his wicked though not entirely repugnant way with her. IMO it would have been blameworthy of Xena if she'd overlooked any chance to save the town from defeat (in which case, in the way of such things, many of the women would have experienced the uninvited attentions of victorious soldiery who were far more physically unattractive than the God of War). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:03:19 -0500 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:08:53 +1300 cr wrote: cande wrote: ... But what happens when some god shows up and wants another child - your child? This is their opportunity to free themselves from being pawns of the gods." cr replied: " Now that seemed to me to be a dishonest argument. Athena and the gods only wanted Eve, and nobody else, and for a very specific reason." OK how about this. The Fates are never specific about the child in question just that it was not begotten by man. Once Zeus decides its Xena's everyone just goes along. What if Athena kills Eve and the Fates say oops wrong kid? So Athena goes on the hunt for a different kid. The gods also have children (Ares had one by Nemesis in a Herc episode). What if its one of them and perhaps such a child is being hidden by its mother so perhaps we should just kill off a generation of children (re: Harrod's slaughter of the innocence). Also what if another prophecy comes along demanding child sacrifice what then - - people just meekly hand over thst child next. Sp Gabrielle makes a powerful argument - hand over this child then you say the gods have a right to demand any child's life. > >> "I was really unhappy about that. Not the fact that Ares missed out on getting his reward (though I did feel a little sorry for him on that account) but that Xena deceived him in that way. It just seemed unworthy of her to set him up using his feelings for her and lie to him in that way." Poor Ares - I think he got what he deserved. He has in the past - gotten Xena arrested for murder, impersonated her father in order to get her to massacre a village, driven her mad so she would kill her mother, taken the side of Dahak and Hope thus betraying his family and mankind, and tried to extort sexual favors from Xena by holding her child's life hostage and now finally he has been tricked and decieved and we should feel sorry for him. Nope Xena was cleaver just cleaver than him - too bad. "I guess since Xena had arranged with Gabby to blow up the temple, it's most likely that Gabby's speech to Ares was part of the same plan." Obvious it was part of the plan not only because the blew up but also because Xena was waiting for Ares right after he talked to Gabrielle. He had rejected her offer why would she be waiting for him unless she knew he would be convinced by Gabrielle. Rememeber Gabrielle summoned him so she must have known about Xena's offer - would Xena have told her about her plan in any other instance expect that Gabrielle would help her. > CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:04:23 -0500 From: meredith Subject: [chakram-refugees] o/The Prisoner (was Re: Yet another Xener mention) Hi, cr responded: >When it first screened, the idea of doors that opened by themselves and >hidden cameras monitoring everything was, if not unheard-of, at least >unusual. These days, any establishment that *didn't* have automatic doors >and video surveillance would be the oddity. So as I say, I'm pleased that >sufficient of the 'weirdness' has survived to impress you. The "weirdness" quotient now is, I think, largely due to the whole 60's sensibility of it. The theme music, the production design, the melodramatic delivery of the lines ... it's great. Though I have to say, the final bunch of episodes (from the "Avengers" parody on to the very end) would be bizarre no matter what the era. And the "I'm not a number, I'm a free man" theme resonates even today. One of my friends, who is the biggest _Buffy_ fan I know (which is saying something) owes his appreciation of weird TV to _The Prisoner_. He can (and does :) go on for hours about how it laid the groundwork for shows that require more than one brain cell to appreciate. I think he has a point. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org NEXT UP: Chris & Meredith Thompson, 12/8/02 ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:15:07 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> Hi, While we're talking about _Amphipolis Under Siege_, I have to point out the one thing that really bugged me about the episode: the godawful costumes on Athena's minions. This was the first episode where we really started to miss Ngila Dickson. cr responded: >I didn't like that either (for quite different reasons from my usual >Gab-bashing, I'll have you know :). As you say, it was out of character. >Since when did Gabby beat up people? Ones that hadn't physically attacked >her, anyway. I didn't think it was that out of character. After what happened with Hope, it made sense to me that Gabrielle would have a raging maternal instinct toward Eve, up to and including roughing up anyone who would cause harm to her. >I was really unhappy about that. Not the fact that Ares missed out on >getting his reward (though I did feel a little sorry for him on that account) >but that Xena deceived him in that way. It just seemed unworthy of her to >set him up using his feelings for her and lie to him in that way. As Cheryl said, it was nothing Ares didn't deserve, many times over. How many times over the years did he play Xena for his own nefarious gain? Xena was more than due a chance at payback. At least she used it for the purpose of saving her daughter. >And Ares kept pointing that out, and the other gods kept ignoring him.... >and ended up, of course, proving him absolutely right. ... and ended up one of the only gods to survive, as well. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org NEXT UP: Chris & Meredith Thompson, 12/8/02 ============================================== ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:06:35 -0500 From: Lee Daley Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] OT: Employment (was: <>) On Tuesday 12 November 2002 4:59 am, cr wrote: > On Tuesday 12 November 2002 07:30, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > > Ahh, right. Let's try then, shall we. > > Just a little jolt from the electrodes.... could you feel that? > > Nurse, we need more voltage.... wind the handle faster.... Alright alright! turn it down! I'll post! - -- LeeD leed@daleyenterprises.cncdsl.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #313 **************************************