From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #307 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Friday, November 8 2002 Volume 02 : Number 307 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Ornery vs. Sentimentality (was Re: <>) [cr > [] Re: [chakram-refugees] Ornery vs. Sentimentality (was Re: <>) [IfeRae@aol.c] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:31:25 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 07 November 2002 06:38, Sojourner wrote: > At 22:54 06/11/2002 +1300, cr wrote: > >On Wednesday 06 November 2002 08:57, Sojourner wrote: > > > X: "I thought I told you not to come in here!" > > > G: "I never listen!" > > > > > > (Thanks as usual to Whoosh) > > > http://www.whoosh.org/epguide/trans/608trans.html > > > >Yeah, I found that in Xena Torres' pnw transcripts in their new location: > >http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome/episodeguide.html > > > >*and* I wrote a post to the list.... however, it would be superfluous > > to send it now. Oh, the frustrations of being in such a backward > > timezone .... ;) > > > >cr > > Oh go on - make the rest of us feel superfluous and post your post anyway. > Sometimes we just feel like chiming in..... Well all it said was what you said.... > Sojourner > (in a civilised timezone, apparently) (Solution to your problem - stay up > longer) No, it isn't. My boss will get tired of gently nudging me awake in meetings.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 22:59:21 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Thursday 07 November 2002 10:03, cande@sunlink.net wrote: > @ > @ > @ > @ > @ > This is an odd episode. It was the 100th Xena episode aired and it > concerns a major event in the Xenaverse - the birth of Xena's child. It > also introduces two more important themes - the self-destruction of the > Greek gods and Ares carnal/romantic pursuit of Xena. Yet for all this, it > is essentially a Hercules episode and an important one because it is the > actual finale of the series. Yes, I reckon it's the true finale of Herc. (Only thing missing is Iolaus). And while HTLJ ended with a 'walking into the sunset' ep, Herc wasn't going to be let off so lightly.... in *this* ep, Herc ends up by killing Zeus..... However, IMO it's also an excellent Xena ep. I think some Xenafans were prejudiced against it by the appearance of a 'Hercules' theme. However, if one just regards it as a Xena ep with guest stars, it works very well, it's not necessary to know any of the background of Herc. It would work just as well, I think, if the Herc series had never happened (or had folded after Unchained Heart....) But the Herc guest stars are so good, notably Hera, that IMO they add to the episode. (snips) > Xena reacts like Xena - she and Gabrielle will go the > underworld get Hades helmet of invisibility and then find the Chronos bone > (the only third thing in the universe that will kill a god) and kill Zeus. > Hercules reacts like Hercules - he will go and try to talk sense to his > father. Nope, not the 'Chronos bone' (you're thinking of the Chronos stone aren't you? ;) the 'ribs of Chronos'. Yet another 'only thing that can kill a god' ..... Umm, let's see, that's Hind's blood, the Dagger of Helios, the Ribs of Chronos, and (later on) Xena herself.... > In Olympus, Hercules confronts his father. He tries to convince Zeus that > he shouldn't kill Xena. In this effort, he finds an unexpected ally, Hera. > Hera reminds Zeus that he killed his father Chronos and the Titans to > gain power and it is possible that now their time is also up. Zeus is > adamant he will have his way and if Hercules gets in his way he will be but > a "fond memory". Hercules is stunned that his father could be so cold about > his favorite son's death. Hercules is now resolved to find Chronos's bones > himself. That was one of the classic lines of the episode. "Reconsider. You've always held a special place in my heart, Hercules-- but it's a place that can as easily be filled by your loving memory." > Zeus know that Herc will oppose him and goes to Ares for help - he wants > Hercules stopeed but not necessarily dead. Ares is not pleased that Zeus > wants to kill "a woman he is quite fond of" but appears to want to save his > noble brother. Zeus does admit that he admires that Herc has the affection > of mankind but he will give Ares a free hand to deal with Herc. Ares is > now willing to see Xena dead if he can kill Hercules. I didn't like that bit of writing. I'm sure that Ares' feelings for Xena (or obsession, if you will) would be stronger than his dislike of Hercules. > Ares confronts > Hercules and just as it seems he will destroy his brother, Hera appears and > knocks Ares out and saves Hercules. That was a lovely surprise. Hercules was convinced Hera was going to join Ares in firebombing him, and instead Hera coolly flattens Ares. And I liked the way she reflectively rubbed her fingers afterwards, as if it was the first time in a long while she'd tried it and she was mildly surprised that it had worked. > Zeus eventually finds the unconscious > Ares and berates him as a failure. Ares takes great pleasure in telling > Zeus that Hera has turned against him. Zeus dismisses Ares with contempt > and now goes after Herc and Hera himself. Zeus will deal with Hercules and > Xena himself. His curt dismisaal and contempt for Ares is a turning point > for Raes - he too will defy the king of the gods. > > Back in Tartarus Xena is fleeing with Solon when Ares appears. Xena having > fought Hades is now ready to take on Ares but he has a shock for her. He > offers to help even though he has no powers in Hades realm (perhaps this > was punishment for the Callisto/ Xena body switch). Xena is stunned and > especially flummoxed when he announces he has feelings for her. She is > less than convinced saying "yeah and her friend too". Ares says he wants > to help because if his time as a god is up he wants to spend his mortal > life with her. Xena is not accepting any of this and taunts him by saying > why doesn't he just say he loves her. Ares can't bring himself to do this > and just fluffs it off as an attempt to take advantage of her condition to > trick her. Xena sneers her contempt "I'm pregnant not brain damaged" and > leaves with Solon. Ares then whispers that he loves her. > > Although shippers everywhere sighed with this declaration it must be > remembered that few hours ago Ares traded Xena's life for an opportunity to > kill his brother. Ares ever the opportunist has once again changed sides. > He sided with Zeus when things looked good for him but with Hera and Herc > working now in tandem things are bit more bleak. Ares now sees the real > possibility that the twilight is upon him, its time to make his new life > palatable. Xena as his lover would make his life very good. While he does > have a deep attraction for Xena, his motives are never unselfish and his > love for Xena is contingent very much what she will give him. My interpretation there is that Ares' feelings for Xena were so strong, he didn't dare say outright that he loved her because he feared rejection too much. He didn't want to let Xena know the depth of his feelings. (This is what I can't reconcile with his deal with Zeus. ) > Hercules and his new ally Hera are now off to find the Chronos's bones. > Hera tells Hercules how Zeus used Chronos' rib bone to kill him and that if > they find Chronos's tomb they can get another bone. > Hercules is suspicious > of Hera, she has always been his mortal enemy why she should she care about > him or some unknown child?Hera says that she has had a change of heart > because she has come to realize that the only creation she is proud of is > mankind. She says that since Hercules saved her grandchild she realizes > how terrible it is to lose a child and she will not be responsible for > another innocent child's death. This was a marvellous conversation. "Parents should never outlive their children". (She was talking about the Olympian gods and the human race.) > > Xena and Gabrielle having emerged from the lake are met by Hercules. Xena > is in full labor and Gabrielle takes her aside while Hercules stands guard. > Xena begs Gabrielle to save herself but she refuses (for cr only - thus > selfishly denying Xena the opportunity to deliver her baby herself by > gnawing off the baby's umbilicord and then jumping into the fry with Zeus). I saw that! I never said Gabby was never any use, did I? ;) > As Gabrielle prepares Xena for the birth (some great byplay here - Xena's > hot so Gabby takes off her coat, Xena's cold Gabby tries put coat back on, > Xena's cranky, Gabby's babbling, Xena tells Gabby to "just be quiet"), ... but I did love that line, and the tone of voice that went with it 8-) > In the temple of the fates Ares realizes that the baby is born, Zeus is > dead, but he is still a god. That was another excellent shot, that very brief shot of Ares regarding his fingers with a quizzical look, I think mildly surprised that he's still there. > What does the birth of Xena's baby really > mean? The baby certainly didn't kill Hera or Zeus. Ares has begun to > realize that the gods' own fear and pride may bring their end. Was the > Fates warning not so much about the baby but more of a warning that gods > have finally grown so corrupt they will destroy themselves if given a > chance. And Ares kept telling them so. They had nothing to fear if they left Eve alone. But the other gods, notably Athena, wouldn't listen... > As a Xena episode it fares less well. LL and ROC are terribly busy - they > have almost all the action scenes. Lucy has some very good moments here - > her scenes reassuring Solon that she will always love him is very > affecting. Her stunned confrontation with the love struck Ares is funny. > ROC is really a fighting machine here and for once Gabby gets to the hero - > she is the one who gets Hades's helmet. ROC is very good as the nervous > midwife who has to deal with a warrior princess in labor and a mad god > trying to kill them. Other than that they have no real role in the major > plot of this story. Actually, I think it works excellently as a Xena episode. What Xena and Gabby do get to do in the episode, is at least as good as in the average Season 5 ep, in my opinion. It may be outshone by the action of the guest stars, but that doesn't mean it's lacking (on an absolute scale). And of course, the other reason Xena and Gabrielle weren't more prominent was Lucy's pregnancy. Very possibly the writers could see that there might be a problem with LL's reduced availability, and decided to beef up the subplot with Herc, Zeus and Hera to compensate. Personally, I rate it as the mid-season high point of Season 5. > Good acting all around. Kevin Sorbo is very good as the ever noble and > good natured Hercules. Charles Keating is wonderful as the prideful Zeus. > Meg Foster is interesting as the austere Hera finding her humanity. Kevin > Smith is always good but his embarrassed declaration of love is a high > point of the episode. > > CherylA Not just good acting, great dialogue as well, especially if you love irony. And there were some great surprises (like Hera's change of side). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:33:23 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ornery vs. Sentimentality (was Re: <>) On Thursday 07 November 2002 12:25, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/6/2002 3:21:39 AM Central Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Ornery is much more interesting than > > sentimentality. My biggest beef with the subtext is when it makes > > Xena go > > all sentimental like a lovesick teenager. Eps like the Ring trilogy, > > IMO, got the tone of the subtext right. > > Wait just a dagone minute. *You* actually think the Ring trilogy got the > subtext right? Even the Sleeping Beauty kiss? Okay, who are you and what > have you done with CR? > > -- Ife (checking the addy. yep, says "cr". maybe somebody stole it) I think I'm still me. (Pinches self). Ouch! Yes, I'm still here. Yeah, even that. Because it wasn't accompanied by some icky dialogue ;) For example, I found Xena's barely-concealed jealousy when Brunnhilde and Beowulf were paying all their attention to Gabby, quite hilarious, actually. And I note that Gabby's dedicated pursuit of Xena to the Northland, against orders, was not (on this occasion) a precursor to her dropping Xena in it. ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:01:19 -0500 From: Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> wrote: > But the Herc guest stars are so good, notably > Hera, that IMO they add to the > episode. > I'm so glad you menetioned Meg Foster's Hera it gives me a chance to gush for a moment. Meg Foster was at Cherry Hill in 2000 and she is one of the nicest and gracious people I have met (and that's saying a lot because all the Xena people have been terrific). She seemed to be a genuine Xena fan before she was on the series and was very funny as a speaker. At the breakfast she was very accessable and fun ( she kissed me on the check to my great surprise). On screen she seems very reserved and dignified in person she is lively and just bit loopy - I loved her. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:56:18 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Ornery vs. Sentimentality (was Re: <>) In a message dated 11/7/02 3:14:16 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << > Wait just a dagone minute. *You* actually think the Ring trilogy got the > subtext right? Even the Sleeping Beauty kiss? Okay, who are you and what > have you done with CR? > > -- Ife (checking the addy. yep, says "cr". maybe somebody stole it) I think I'm still me. (Pinches self). Ouch! Yes, I'm still here. Yeah, even that. Because it wasn't accompanied by some icky dialogue ;) For example, I found Xena's barely-concealed jealousy when Brunnhilde and Beowulf were paying all their attention to Gabby, quite hilarious, actually. And I note that Gabby's dedicated pursuit of Xena to the Northland, against orders, was not (on this occasion) a precursor to her dropping Xena in it. ;) cr >> I am speechless. It *is* you! And I apologize for misjudging your "sensitivity" quotient. However, I must disagree with you (big surprise) about Xena's reaction in the scene you note. I thought her look was more one of, "I know *I* value and love G. I know others who feel the same way. But, wow, she's really become an inspirational leader in her own right, with people willing to fight and die following her after knowing her two minutes." Heh, you didn't know Xena could be so expressive with one look, huh? Anyway, my favorites are when G is tending to X's leg wound and the two of them exchange knowing, intimate looks while B is talking about how much she admires Xena. (Riiiiight) And Xena's "I don't like her" later on is priceless. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #307 **************************************