From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #306 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, November 7 2002 Volume 02 : Number 306 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [Sojourner > [] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] Ornery vs. Sentimentality (was Re: <>) [If] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 22:54:07 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Wednesday 06 November 2002 08:57, Sojourner wrote: > > X: "I thought I told you not to come in here!" > G: "I never listen!" > > (Thanks as usual to Whoosh) > http://www.whoosh.org/epguide/trans/608trans.html Yeah, I found that in Xena Torres' pnw transcripts in their new location: http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome/episodeguide.html *and* I wrote a post to the list.... however, it would be superfluous to send it now. Oh, the frustrations of being in such a backward timezone .... ;) cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:39:50 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Wednesday 06 November 2002 09:38, mirrordrum wrote: > > second in my house only to the reverberations caused by "oh, right. i'm the > sidekick. i get to walk ten paces behind you and your *horse*!" > followed of course by xena's "you can walk beside my horse." I cracked up at that one! But then, the whole episode was a classic, in my view. > and sneers of derision at the "people who love each other don't talk like > this" dialogue. since when and whyever not? in my experience, people who > really love each other talk a lot more like that than the smarmy "even in > death" stuff. who the hell says that, anyway? it wouldn't be interesting > not to be ornery at least part of the time. Like lfe, I agree entirely. Ornery is much more interesting than sentimentality. My biggest beef with the subtext is when it makes Xena go all sentimental like a lovesick teenager. Eps like the Ring trilogy, IMO, got the tone of the subtext right. > md--coming in belatedly on this thread and possibly missing the point. i > just, er, dropped by to say hi. "hi!" :-) Hi. Nice to see ya! cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 17:38:29 +0000 From: Sojourner Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> At 22:54 06/11/2002 +1300, cr wrote: >On Wednesday 06 November 2002 08:57, Sojourner wrote: > > > > > X: "I thought I told you not to come in here!" > > G: "I never listen!" > > > > (Thanks as usual to Whoosh) > > http://www.whoosh.org/epguide/trans/608trans.html > >Yeah, I found that in Xena Torres' pnw transcripts in their new location: >http://www.geocities.com/bitchofrome/episodeguide.html > >*and* I wrote a post to the list.... however, it would be superfluous to >send it now. Oh, the frustrations of being in such a backward timezone .... > ;) > >cr Oh go on - make the rest of us feel superfluous and post your post anyway. Sometimes we just feel like chiming in..... Sojourner (in a civilised timezone, apparently) (Solution to your problem - stay up longer) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:03:43 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> @ @ @ @ @ This is an odd episode. It was the 100th Xena episode aired and it concerns a major event in the Xenaverse - the birth of Xena's child. It also introduces two more important themes - the self-destruction of the Greek gods and Ares carnal/romantic pursuit of Xena. Yet for all this, it is essentially a Hercules episode and an important one because it is the actual finale of the series. The plot basically consists of Hercules and Xena efforts to save Xena's baby from Zeus. Zeus has been told by the Fates that the birth of a child not begotten of man will spell the end of the Greek gods. Zeus is determined to defy fate and prevent the birth of such a child - Xena's child. In the process he will alienate his family and start the destruction of the gods. Xena and Gabrielle are awaiting the birth of Xena's child with happy anticipation. The happiness is only compounded when Hercules pops up to visit (with a Teddy Hydra named Iolus). The reunion is interrupted when the trio is attacked by Zeus's guards. Although the friends fight the soldiers off, they learn that Zeus is determined to kill Xena and her unborn child. Xena reacts like Xena - she and Gabrielle will go the underworld get Hades helmet of invisibility and then find the Chronos bone (the only third thing in the universe that will kill a god) and kill Zeus. Hercules reacts like Hercules - he will go and try to talk sense to his father. Xena and Gabrielle go to the lake that is the portal to Tartarus and plunge in. They literary drop into Tartarus and soon find a surprise - Solon wrapped in a peapod ... err no a cocoon. Like the condemned who are forced to relive their lives, he is watching his former life with his mother. Xena is upset but he says he chose this so he could see Xena - in Elysia he would not have these memories. Xena and Gabrielle now have two missions - get the helmet and get Solon to Elysia. The trio makes it to the helmet but it is a trap - Hades and Zeus's army appear. Even though Hades owes Xena for saving his realm in the past, he will now do Zeus's bidding and destroy Xena's child. Hades and his forces attack and after a furious battle, Gabrielle gets the helmet while Xena takes off with Solon. In Olympus, Hercules confronts his father. He tries to convince Zeus that he shouldn't kill Xena. In this effort, he finds an unexpected ally, Hera. Hera reminds Zeus that he killed his father Chronos and the Titans to gain power and it is possible that now their time is also up. Zeus is adamant he will have his way and if Hercules gets in his way he will be but a "fond memory". Hercules is stunned that his father could be so cold about his favorite son's death. Hercules is now resolved to find Chronos's bones himself. Zeus know that Herc will oppose him and goes to Ares for help - he wants Hercules stopeed but not necessarily dead. Ares is not pleased that Zeus wants to kill "a woman he is quite fond of" but appears to want to save his noble brother. Zeus does admit that he admires that Herc has the affection of mankind but he will give Ares a free hand to deal with Herc. Ares is now willing to see Xena dead if he can kill Hercules. Ares confronts Hercules and just as it seems he will destroy his brother, Hera appears and knocks Ares out and saves Hercules. Zeus eventually finds the unconscious Ares and berates him as a failure. Ares takes great pleasure in telling Zeus that Hera has turned against him. Zeus dismisses Ares with contempt and now goes after Herc and Hera himself. Zeus will deal with Hercules and Xena himself. His curt dismisaal and contempt for Ares is a turning point for Raes - he too will defy the king of the gods. Back in Tartarus Xena is fleeing with Solon when Ares appears. Xena having fought Hades is now ready to take on Ares but he has a shock for her. He offers to help even though he has no powers in Hades realm (perhaps this was punishment for the Callisto/ Xena body switch). Xena is stunned and especially flummoxed when he announces he has feelings for her. She is less than convinced saying "yeah and her friend too". Ares says he wants to help because if his time as a god is up he wants to spend his mortal life with her. Xena is not accepting any of this and taunts him by saying why doesn't he just say he loves her. Ares can't bring himself to do this and just fluffs it off as an attempt to take advantage of her condition to trick her. Xena sneers her contempt "I'm pregnant not brain damaged" and leaves with Solon. Ares then whispers that he loves her. Although shippers everywhere sighed with this declaration it must be remembered that few hours ago Ares traded Xena's life for an opportunity to kill his brother. Ares ever the opportunist has once again changed sides. He sided with Zeus when things looked good for him but with Hera and Herc working now in tandem things are bit more bleak. Ares now sees the real possibility that the twilight is upon him, its time to make his new life palatable. Xena as his lover would make his life very good. While he does have a deep attraction for Xena, his motives are never unselfish and his love for Xena is contingent very much what she will give him. Meanwhile Xena has met up with Gabrielle who has the helmet. At the entrance of Elysia she gives Solon the helmet. As Gabrielle and she distract the guards the invisible Solon slips into paradise. Xena has sacrificed the helmet in order to ensure Solon's happiness. As Xena says good-bye to her son she goes into labor. With Gabrielle's help they return topside. Hercules and his new ally Hera are now off to find the Chronos's bones. Hera tells Hercules how Zeus used Chronos' rib bone to kill him and that if they find Chronos's tomb they can get another bone. Hercules is suspicious of Hera, she has always been his mortal enemy why she should she care about him or some unknown child?Hera says that she has had a change of heart because she has come to realize that the only creation she is proud of is mankind. She says that since Hercules saved her grandchild she realizes how terrible it is to lose a child and she will not be responsible for another innocent child's death. She does't want Zeus killed if possible, she hopes the sight of Chronos bone will warn Zeus off. Hercules is reluctantly convinced of Hera's sincerity and his trust is rewarded when Hera guides him to Chronos's bones. Hercules now is able to get one of the Titan's bones. His victory is short lived when Zeus arrives. Hera however incapacitates Zeus and sends Herc off to protect Xena. Herc warns Hera to be careful of Zeus but she says he can handle him. When Zeus awakens, Hera tries again to make Zeus see reason. They have just recently reconciled and renewed their love, she hopes this will persuade him to listen to her. Zeus takes Hera in his arms and as they kiss he destroys her. The twilight has begun and Zeus has killed the first god himself. Xena and Gabrielle having emerged from the lake are met by Hercules. Xena is in full labor and Gabrielle takes her aside while Hercules stands guard. Xena begs Gabrielle to save herself but she refuses (for cr only - thus selfishly denying Xena the opportunity to deliver her baby herself by gnawing off the baby's umbilicord and then jumping into the fry with Zeus). As Gabrielle prepares Xena for the birth (some great byplay here - Xena's hot so Gabby takes off her coat, Xena's cold Gabby tries put coat back on, Xena's cranky, Gabby's babbling, Xena tells Gabby to "just be quiet"), Zeus arrives. Hercules truly doesn't want to kill his father. He warns him off but Zeus tries his best to kill Herc. Xena is now in labor and with Gabby' help is about to give birth. Just as Gabby brings forth the baby, Zeus gets past Herc. A very vulnerable Xena and Gabrielle can do nothing, Zeus will strike them all down but suddenly Hercules stabs his father. Zeus is mortally wounded and Olympus shakes. Hercules cradles his father and finally Zeus accepts his fate, he forgives his son and dies. In the temple of the fates Ares realizes that the baby is born, Zeus is dead, but he is still a god. What does the birth of Xena's baby really mean? The baby certainly didn't kill Hera or Zeus. Ares has begun to realize that the gods' own fear and pride may bring their end. Was the Fates warning not so much about the baby but more of a warning that gods have finally grown so corrupt they will destroy themselves if given a chance. Finally Xena, Gabrielle, Hercules, and the baby are alone. Xena names the baby Eve - a name whispered to her by Solon in Tartarus. As Hercules and Gabrielle leave Xena to bond with the baby she tells the baby that along with her brother, Solon, they will always be a family. As I said this episode works well as a finale for Hercules. The main thematic emphasis of Hercules has always been Hercules's conflict between the two sides of his nature. He is half god and half human but is he more god or human? He has always sided with his human half - he has championed mankind over the gods and paid a terrible price for this. Still he craved the love his father. In Hercules's heart I believed he thought Zeus loved him but suddenly he finds that his father loves power more than him. Hercules watches in disbelief as the father who always seemed compassionate becomes obsessed with murdering a child. Zeus forces Herc to choose between him and Xena's child who represents all of man's hope to be free of the gods' meddling. Hercules is no longer torn between his two sides - he is human and will defend them even if it means his life. As a Xena episode it fares less well. LL and ROC are terribly busy - they have almost all the action scenes. Lucy has some very good moments here - her scenes reassuring Solon that she will always love him is very affecting. Her stunned confrontation with the love struck Ares is funny. ROC is really a fighting machine here and for once Gabby gets to the hero - she is the one who gets Hades's helmet. ROC is very good as the nervous midwife who has to deal with a warrior princess in labor and a mad god trying to kill them. Other than that they have no real role in the major plot of this story. Good acting all around. Kevin Sorbo is very good as the ever noble and good natured Hercules. Charles Keating is wonderful as the prideful Zeus. Meg Foster is interesting as the austere Hera finding her humanity. Kevin Smith is always good but his embarrassed declaration of love is a high point of the episode. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:25:37 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 11/6/2002 3:05:08 PM Central Standard Time, cande@sunlink.net writes: > In the temple of the fates Ares realizes that the baby is born, Zeus is dead, > but he is still a god. What does the birth of Xena's baby really mean? The > baby certainly didn't kill Hera or Zeus. Ares has begun to realize that the > gods' own fear and pride may bring their end. Was the Fates warning not so > much about the baby but more of a warning that gods have finally grown so > corrupt they will destroy themselves if given a chance.>> Yes, and I'd forgotten something you pointed out early -- that, in killing his wife, Zeus actually initiates the very destruction foretold. > As I said this episode works well as a finale for Hercules. > > As a Xena episode it fares less well. LL and ROC are terribly busy - they > have almost all the action scenes. Lucy has some very good moments here - > her > scenes reassuring Solon that she will always love him is very affecting. > Her > stunned confrontation with the love struck Ares is funny. ROC is really a > fighting machine here and for once Gabby gets to the hero - she is the one > who > gets Hades's helmet. ROC is very good as the nervous midwife who has to > deal > with a warrior princess in labor and a mad god trying to kill them. Other > than that they have no real role in the major plot of this story. > I was never a big Herc fan, even less so when he and Xena appeared together, since (even on her own show) she turned into a wimpy younger sister. And I agree that a major event in Xena's life was almost eclipsed by the death in Herc's life. Still, at least for once Xena came off as Herc's equal, in terms of her absolute determination to save her child, even if it meant killing Herc's daddy. There was none of the wheedling tone I hated when Xena dealt with Herc way back in season 1. Nope, the WP confronts him quite "staunchly." Despite all the problems you mention (and my impatience with the Herc-related scenes), I came away feeling that the tremendous battle over the birth of Xena's child was the driving point behind the major plot. I found the ending particularly poignant, especially knowing about Lucy's real-life birth and that she (and we) had made it through the pregnancy relatively (I said "relatively") unscathed. Thanks for another excellent summary. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:25:35 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Ornery vs. Sentimentality (was Re: <>) In a message dated 11/6/2002 3:21:39 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Ornery is much more interesting than > sentimentality. My biggest beef with the subtext is when it makes Xena go > > all sentimental like a lovesick teenager. Eps like the Ring trilogy, IMO, > > got the tone of the subtext right. Wait just a dagone minute. *You* actually think the Ring trilogy got the subtext right? Even the Sleeping Beauty kiss? Okay, who are you and what have you done with CR? - -- Ife (checking the addy. yep, says "cr". maybe somebody stole it) ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #306 **************************************