From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #304 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Tuesday, November 5 2002 Volume 02 : Number 304 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [IfeRae@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Whoosh [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 22:36:28 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" On Monday 04 November 2002 10:52, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/3/2002 12:16:59 AM Central Standard Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Ife said: > > Regardless of how we saw them or their roles, > > > > > they *acted* like a team, otherwise we both wouldn't be so sure that > > > they could/would not exercise their right as an individual to say "no" > > > to the other. > > > > Yes, but part of being a team is that the members should know their > > respective roles and stick to them. It does not require that they both > > try > > > to do the exact same thing whether they're very good at it or not. > > You can have a two-person team in, say, rally driving. The co-driver > > reads > > > the pace notes and the driver drives, and they both depend on each other > > to > > > do their job precisely and well, or they may end up seriously hurt. > > It doesn't work if the co-driver grabs the wheel at critical moments > > ;)>> > > Ah, then we also have different notions of "team." I see a variety -- > including both those with "role" players and those where members are > interchangeable (as in tennis doubles or volleyball). In the latter, it's > true that members have particular strengths that they try to favor when > possible, but all members have to be able to serve or defend well and can > be exploited by the opposition if it becomes apparent that certain members > are too weak in a particular area. Well, to be very specific there, I don't think that sort of team analogy applies to X&G at all, for most of the series, because of the wide difference in their abilities, not to mention their natures. Nowhere (until Season 5 at least) is it shown that Gabby was anything more than a competent fighter, and while Xena could undoubtedly read and write, she is never shown as having any literary or storytelling ability. > As a woman, one of the things I liked about XWP was that it didn't get > stuck in the linear, competitive, one-role mold stereotypical of male > action shows. I'm used to my female heroes being able to multi-task, to > collaborate and "pitch in" without some "chain of command," to analyze > situations on both emotional and physical levels, to let others lead and > grow in a way that makes the team as well as individuals stronger. Yes, > that can have its downsides and is not always appropriate, but I liked that > we got to see the strengths of it, not just the downsides. I liked that we > got to see both X&G become more multi-dimensional, multi-talented as > individuals and as a team. I liked that they didn't have some hierarchy of > abilities, with physical prowess automatically placed at the top and out of > reach. Xena may have excelled in typically "masculine" areas, but I > wouldn't have been nearly as captivated if I didn't also see both women as > incorporating (and appreciating) typically "feminine" sensibilities. > > > I have much more respect for Gabby when she uses her brains and acts > > strategically, such as when she smuggled Xena's chacky in to her in > > Shark Island Prison. I suppose one could say that's another case of her > > putting > > herself in harm's way, but she was playing to her strengths i.e. > > talking, rather than her weaknesses. >> > > Again, you typically like for Gabs to play the stereotypical "support" role > -- contributing to, but not being part of the "real" action. No, it isn't that _at all_. It's more that I *don't* like to see Gabby getting out of her depth and proving to be a liability rather than a help. If the writers had come up with a scenario where Gabby's real abilities were, for the once, more important than Xena's, I would have been happy to see Gabby take the lead. If they *had* shown such a scenario and Xena had pushed in and been floundering out of her depth, I would have regarded that as a screw-up by Xena. (As it happens, they never did show that, IIRC). > I liked that > the "real" action on XWP included human interactions and emotions -- > indeed, often drove the physical action. This meant that sometimes Gabs > provided critical physical support (as when she knocked the sword from that > guy's hand when Xena lay defenseless in GREATER GOOD) or for Xena to > provide > motivational and "teaching" support in helping Gabs learn certain skills or > during her quest in season 4. Indeed, there's no way season 5 could've been > done credibly with pregnant LL/Xena, had not Gabrielle been developed as a > credible partner. Oh, I think Amarice could've handled it . After all, Amarice probably had more experience with serious fighting than Gabby at that point. With support from Gabby at her Season-3 level of ability. It would have avoided the need for Gabby's sudden and unexplained transformation into a warrior in Chakram. But that's a side-issue ;) I'll agree that much of XWP *did* depend on human (or godlike) interactions - not just between X and G, I might add. This is what really set it apart from, e.g. Beastmaster or similar. > > > > And what irks me (as you put it) are those occasions when Xena ends up > > in trouble because of something Gabby did, quite unnecessarily. I > > certainly > > don't mean to imply that everything Gabby does is a 'screw-up'. > > In a sense, you're arguing on the wrong ground. 'Action' is Xena's > > strong > > point, and it isn't Gabs'. So when Gabrielle introduces herself > > unnecessarily into the scene of the action, she's obviously going to be > > at a > > big disadvantage. Very much so up to 'Chakram'. Thereafter she gets > > better, but (as several episodes show) she still is nowhere near Xena's > > standards until FIN2.>> > > Even if we stick to the physical level, Gabrielle didn't need to be > Hercules to use her staff to save Xena in GREATER GOOD and DESTINY, or to > stop Xena from killing those villagers in TIES THAT BIND. I would argue > that by season 4, Gabs was firmly established in her physical skills, which > didn't need to be as good as Xena's for her to be effective. (Oh, my > goodness! I think I forgot to add LOCKED UP as another time Gabs saved > Xena.) I didn't forget :) I mentioned it! Umm, I'd say rather 'by Season 5' since for so much of Season 4 Gabby was hogtied by Eli's Way of Peace. But the occasions on which Gabrielle saves the scene by her physical ability do exist, I agree, but are quite rare in Seasons 1 to 3, I think. > > > I'd reserve the term 'screw-up' for a small number of particularly > > blatant occurrences, actually. It has to be not only unwise, but > > gratuitous. I certainly wouldn't use it for every occasion when Gabby > > acts on her own. >> > > In this whole discussion, you've given maybe 1-2 situations that you seem > to think were "gratuitous" -- DEBT being the most obvious. Well, I said they were not numerous. > I'm assuming you might include the Hope fiasco and GURKHAN. If by 'the Hope fiasco' you mean 'Maternal Instincts', yes. And definitely Gurkhan. There may be a few others but I'm not searching my memory for them. ;) > In correcting past > screw-ups, Xena has put Gabs in danger, but you don't seem to think of > those situations as "gratuitous." I fail to see the distinction, but, > again, I'm assuming it stems from your assumption that Xena automatically > gets the benefit of the doubt, whereas Gabrielle's actions must necessarily > be questioned. No not at all. I try *not* to assume that! A danger that arises naturally or can't be avoided is not, in my definition, 'gratuitous'. And I wouldn't put Xena's past errors (to use a mild term) in the category 'screw-ups'. They were mostly of a different nature. I tend to use 'screw-up' (I *wish* I could think of a better term) for tactical blunders. Xena's past doings were far more serious than that. Xena allowing herself to be bushwhacked by Borias and handed over to Ming is probably the nearest she came to a 'screw-up', though she harmed nobody but herself by it. Xena killing the Amazon leaders was a crime that she came to pay for later, but in tactical terms she was entirely successful. I'm not splitting hairs and trying to make Xena sound better than she was, but it seems to me that she was, on the whole, very competent at what she did, even when it was doing evil. Gabrielle often came unstuck because she overestimated her own abilities. Xena in the past most often seemed to come unstuck because she misjudged somebody and was betrayed or misled (by Caesar, Borias, Alti, Satrina, Darphus...) > > In fact Gabby did have her own strong points, among them IIRC talking, > > storytelling, and cooking. Though we didn't see much of them in the > > series > > (other than frequent references to her storytelling ability). They > > *could* > > have shown a story where Gabby saved the situation by talking. In > > fact they did, on a few occasions. But as it's an action series, it > > would have > > been difficult to do so very often without incurring a major boredom > > factor, I think.>> > > Yes, thank the gods they didn't relegate Gabs to "talking, storytelling and > cooking" -- the stereotypical "support" role I mention above. However, she > did use talking and listening as part of her arsenal, as well as hugging, > giving water to the enemy, and kicking butt -- sometimes to save Xena, > sometimes to save others. Thank the gods they didn't keep Xena from doing > some of the above. Only *some*. ;) One thing that made me instantly like Xena, in Unchained Heart, was that Herc had to do the cooking because Xena wouldn't. And she never did. ;) > And that, again, is my point. They were a team that > between them used a variety of means to accomplish their goals. Just > because one happened to be better at something, TPTB didn't keep them stuck > there or make one method inherently, automatically superior to the other in > all situations. Agreed. > > Sorry for causing you a headache, by the way. > > LOL! It's okay. I think I'm finally working through why we both have a > Xena bias, but see Gabrielle so differently. You've certainly forced me to > have a more well-rounded view of Gabs. > > -- Ife Well, I could say the same. If at times I've sounded as if I hate Gabby, it's because of the side I've been arguing on, and I haven't felt entirely happy about that. I don't really believe in 'blame the writers' because I feel they're doing what they think is appropriate, and we have to take what they give us and interpret it as we see fit; but I do like Gabby much better when she shows presence of mind and saves the day than when - ummm - we've been over that haven't we? cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 23:59:44 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Monday 04 November 2002 12:25, Cheryl Ande wrote: > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > When I first saw that this was next in line for season six I though "oh no > this was such a weak episode" but on viewing it again I really enjoyed it. > Frankly I forgot that this episode had Aphrodite in it and I didn't > remember how much I enjoy a cranky Xena and a panic stricken tiny > Gabrielle. > > The story opens at Aphrodite's temple where Xena is snoozing away > peacefully and Gabrielle in a pair spiffy jamies (does Gabby carry these > with her or does the temple provide sleepwear to those seeking shelter) I thought the depth of Argo's saddlebags was legendary? > is > struggling with writer's block. In pops Aphrodite who is all solicitous > concern for Gabby's problem and in no time at all Gabby is on the couch be > analyzed by Dr. Sigmund Dite. After determined that Gabby's initial > hostility is a result of certain unacknowledged latent tendencies Aphrodite > gets to the crutch of Gabby's problem. Gabrielle can't write any longer. > So Aphrodite gets Gabrielle to tell her the story of what happened that day > - all this is done while Aphrodite by turns decides to have a pajama party > and then a bubble bath ( with chocolate scented bubbles). I did rather like Aphrodite in this ep. And Aphrodite seems to have taken a liking to Gabby, though as recently as If The Shoe Fits, relations between the two didn't seem any too cosy. Did their improved relationship start with Little Problems? > So Gabby begins. That day Xena, Joxer, and Gabby are discussing baby names > - Gabby has put forth Rochelle and Aloysius as names which were mercifully > rejected by Xena (little Miles somewhere should also give a heart felt sigh > of relief that his momma is very different from Gabby). Gabrielle is > sanguine about the rebuff since she says it is natural for Xena to be > cranky at this time. Xena takes umbrage at this since she has never ever > been cranky - just ask Joxer. Joxer, in flash backs remember being > pummeled, dropped and killed by Xena, agrees that Xena is indeed never > cranky. Now who thinks those were the best flashbacks of the episode? ;) > Gabrielle scoffs at this and a bet is made - if Xena proves not to > be cranky or doesn't lose her temper that day then Gabrielle will do a > month of cooking, cleaning, and backrubs. The deal is struck - Xena then > decides to go to town with Joxer for supplies and sends Gabby of to a > stream to wash Argo. > > Gabby does as she is told (see that cr) I saw it. First time in five seasons, was it? "I never do what I'm told" - Gab, in some episode or other.... :) > but still gets in trouble. The > stream is dedicated to the god Lachrymose a morose god who doesn't like > horses washed in his stream. He shrinks Argo into a miniature horse (a > very cute miniature horse). I've seen a theory that the episode arose when somebody found this miniature pony that looked just like Argo and everybody said, "OK, so now what do we do with it?" Okay, so it really was rather cute, I admit. > Gabrielle is appalled, panic stricken, and > generally worried about Xena's blood pressure if she should see her tiny > war-horse (as Gabrielle says "sometimes she thinks Xena likes Argo more > than her"). Lachrymose will only change Argo back if Gabrielle can make > him laugh -something he has never done. So Gabby launches into a montage of > comedy escapades (did I mention this is a clip show) - bachae bunnies, Baby > Bliss, naked dancing Gabrielle's, slapstick shtick galore is recounted to > no avail. Gabrielle is in deep do do. Oddly enough, I didn't find a lot of those funny. Entertaining, but not laugh-making. Obviously Lachrymose felt the same way. > At the tavern Xena hears Argo's footsteps and beams with pride at her > horse's loyalty. She is stunned when a tiny Argo shows up and Xena get > really upset (flashes of rat Xena from Paradise Found, Kahli Xena, Demon > Xena, Bachae Xena (Lucy does the best slow burn since Edgar Kennedy who was > famous for them in Abbot and Costello's films in the 1940s)). Gabby and > Joxer arrive and although Gabrielle tries to hid behind Joxer, Xena nails > her - not with a fist but a pie. This erupts in a glorious pie fight where > everyone but Xena gets pied. The pie fight however seems to be more fun > than mean spirited. Gabrielle is throwing pies in happy abandon and even > the warlord seems resigned to being pied. Lachrymose appears in he midst > of the chaos and Xena drops a pie on him and finally he laughs which breaks > the spell. Argo is big again. That was a fairly good pie fight, though where the fat lady opera singer with the Valkyrie hat came from was never explained. Come to that, the local freemasons lodge or whoever they were in the pointy hats, wasn't explained either. It didn't really seem to matter, though. The best food fight I ever saw was in a '70's movie called 'The Great Race', with Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis IIRC. It started at a banquet in Ruritania (the foodfight, not the race!) with a table piled high with cakes and all manner of fancy confectionery, so the belligerents just naturally had far more ammuntion (and much more colourful) than XWP's pies. It was the highlight of the movie, for me. There's just something anarchically hilarious about a really good massively over-the-top foodfight.... cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:23:56 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> In a message dated 11/4/02 3:31:43 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: << > Gabby does as she is told (see that cr) I saw it. First time in five seasons, was it? "I never do what I'm told" - Gab, in some episode or other.... :) >> I'm thinking that may have been in the Ring trilogy ep, where Xena left Gabs sleeping while the WP went off on her suicide mission, but Gabs ended up saving Xena's skin by bringing the chakram and jumping Grindle when it had Xena in her clutches. Actually, I remember Gabs telling Xena way back in season one that she wouldn't always be ordered around. As I recall, Xena smiled, though she sometimes seemed to have memory loss about that. But we won't resume that argument in this post, will we? - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:01:13 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" In a message dated 11/4/02 2:49:11 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: Ife said: > Ah, then we also have different notions of "team." I see a variety -- > including both those with "role" players and those where members are > interchangeable (as in tennis doubles or volleyball). In the latter, it's > true that members have particular strengths that they try to favor when > possible, but all members have to be able to serve or defend well and can > be exploited by the opposition if it becomes apparent that certain members > are too weak in a particular area. Well, to be very specific there, I don't think that sort of team analogy applies to X&G at all, for most of the series, because of the wide difference in their abilities, not to mention their natures. Nowhere (until Season 5 at least) is it shown that Gabby was anything more than a competent fighter, and while Xena could undoubtedly read and write, she is never shown as having any literary or storytelling ability.<< Fighting and storytelling? In your view, we apparently have two people who happen to be running side by side. One can run much faster than the other, but for some odd reason keeps coming back to run with or carry the other one on her back. The faster one must be a fool, if speed and individual effort are the only criteria for success. In my view, both runners are intelligent folks who analyze themselves and the race on many levels. They have realized that -- especially over the long haul - -- speed means little without motivation, direction, endurance, strength, flexibility, and a lot of other criteria that one runner may excel in most of the time, but for which she can rely on the other's support frequently or in critical times. They've chosen to run together because each one feels she has a better chance of succeeding with the other. Every now and then, one falls or believes she may fall, and may be concerned about holding the other back. But the other goes to help because she believes she can't move forward without her teammate. Even when they make missteps that hurt each other, they accept that as a consequence of their partnership and dedicate themselves to coming back stronger for the next leg of the journey. In the beginning, Gabs often saw the opportunities for helping (e.g., the couple whose families were feuding, that baby they saved, helping the orphans). She gave Xena moral support (including a whack with a pitchfork) in not acquiescing to her dark side. She used her people skills to gather information and persuade others to help. As time progressed, she learned (primarily from Xena) how to fight, give medical aid, think strategically, provide leadership -- to the point where she became the primary back-up or provider of those skills in some situations. She helped Xena to see the bigger picture, to think even better "out of the box," to listen to and trust other opinions before making snap judgments, to see that compassion could not only be "good," but practical. It was Gabs' quest for knowledge that led Xena to India and gaining confidence in her "way" as a warrior. While they had wonderfully different and complementary "natures," and were at different stages in their development, they showed equal intelligence, courage, determination, thirst for knowledge, and willingness to give everything for their friend. As their relationship matured, many of their strengths became interchangeable, if not equal -- at least to the point where enemies had trouble using one's weakness to defeat them both. That is why I see them as two individuals who had more faith in running together -- as a team -- than in running alone. It is why I can't put their different strengths in some hierarchy that completely ignores the contribution of other strengths. And because, regardless of her flaws and youthful mistakes, I never saw Xena as a fool who'd carry dead weight around 'cause she got tired of doing push-ups. << Gabrielle often came unstuck because she overestimated her own abilities. Xena in the past most often seemed to come unstuck because she misjudged somebody and was betrayed or misled (by Caesar, Borias, Alti, Satrina, Darphus...)>> I disagree. I don't think Gabrielle thought in terms of her abilities. She saw something she thought was wrong and jumped in because she thought that was the right thing to do. I believe young Xena was driven by her will, her appetite for knowledge and power. But she was more likely to overestimate her abilities -- e.g., her allure or invulnerability to being suckered or used. <> Well, we don't have to argue "sides." Both characters have flaws and strengths. Ironically, because I came to see them as a team, it's hard to categorically criticize one, without implying that the other didn't have a will or mind of her own. Xena's my girl, but I ended up defending Gabrielle because some folks seemed to paint her as some poor twit corrupted by Xena. Likewise, painting Gabrielle as a poor twit implies that Xena didn't have the good sense to know what she needed in her companion. Yes, each had a life before they met. But once it was pretty clear their relationship was enduring, I was forced to respect Gabrielle, in order to fully appreciate Xena. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:24:05 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> Cr wrote: " I did rather like Aphrodite in this ep. And Aphrodite seems to have taken a liking to Gabby, though as recently as If The Shoe Fits, relations between the two didn't seem any too cosy. Did their improved relationship start with Little Problems?" I think that was the episode that relationship started to develope into friendship. I think that ROC and AT worked so well together that teaming them was easy to do and a friendship seemed natural. It gives Gabrielle someone else to be friends with and it allowed Aphrodite to be more than just a flighty valley girl. Also Aphrodite was being developed on Hercules as a sympathetic character as she behaved more like his kid sister. Aphrodite could have a similar relationship with Gabrielle. > The best food fight I ever saw was in a '70's movie called 'The Great Race', with Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis IIRC. ... It was the highlight of the movie, for me. There's just something anarchically hilarious about a really good massively over-the-top foodfight.... Yes I was going to mention the Great Race it did perhaps have the last great cinematic pie fight. Since then food fights heve devoved into rather disgusting sight gags (Animal House) there is something inherently funny in a pie that just isn't the same when mash potatoes are substituted. CherylA > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 20:58:54 EST From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Whoosh This is the second month in which Whoosh has not appeared as usual on the first day of the month. Last month, no. 73, Oct. 2002, was a few days late because Kym Taborn's PC was the computer equivalent of a village which had just been raided by Callisto. It was unmistakably dead. Now her machine is back. There is no new issue this month because she has switched from monthly to every other month. No. 73 was Oct.-Nov. and arrived in early Oct. No. 74 will be Dec. and will probably come at the start of Dec. No. 75 is to be Jan./Feb. 2003. It is not clear to me whether it will come in Jan. or Feb. She has switched to every other month, probably, because there were not enough contributions. So instead of lavishing your brilliant ideas on the small readership of Chakram exclusively, put them in the form of an article and send them to Whoosh. I think that there are still things to be said about Xena. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #304 **************************************