From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #303 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Monday, November 4 2002 Volume 02 : Number 303 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] [chakram-refugees] Campbell on lecture circuit [KLOSSNER9@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:50:16 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" On Sunday 03 November 2002 15:58, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/1/2002 3:19:50 AM Central Standard Time, > > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > > > Heaven preserve me from somebody who decides they're going to get > > > > > > > > themself killed and politely invites me along for the ride, is all I > > can > > > > > say to that. >> > > > > > > I don't recall either X or G doing that. And if she did, the other > > > one could say "no." > > > > You know they wouldn't. > > Precisely. My apologies for snipping the rest of our discussion, but for > me this is the crux of it. For whatever reason, no matter how stupid it > seemed, neither wanted the other to "go it" alone. They followed each > other when maybe they shouldn't have. They should've known, as even you say > above, that the other would follow, even when they called themselves acting > independently. Yes. Though as I noted, Xena did know this and accordingly did try to take steps on occasion to keep Gab out of it. > I would even venture to say that one of the biggest reasons they admired > each other in the first place (and continued to) was each other's fearless > defense of what was "right." In SINS, Gabs wasn't relying on Xena to save > her, nor did Xena expect Gabs to intervene during that stoning. Each was > acting as an individual, which they often did later on. The downside was > that they were always fearing and having to deal with the consequences of > that. You saw them solely as individuals. I saw them as individuals who > became a *team* fighting for good, which for me would have meant little if > either was afraid to jump into the fray because of always fearing for the > other, or if one refused to support the other, simply because she didn't > see something the same way. Regardless of how we saw them or their roles, > they *acted* like a team, otherwise we both wouldn't be so sure that they > could/would not exercise their right as an individual to say "no" to the > other. Yes, but part of being a team is that the members should know their respective roles and stick to them. It does not require that they both try to do the exact same thing whether they're very good at it or not. You can have a two-person team in, say, rally driving. The co-driver reads the pace notes and the driver drives, and they both depend on each other to do their job precisely and well, or they may end up seriously hurt. It doesn't work if the co-driver grabs the wheel at critical moments ;) I have much more respect for Gabby when she uses her brains and acts strategically, such as when she smuggled Xena's chacky in to her in Shark Island Prison. I suppose one could say that's another case of her putting herself in harm's way, but she was playing to her strengths i.e. talking, rather than her weaknesses. > BTW, I'm not arguing anymore about "screw-ups" per se because I accept that > you don't seem to see Gabrielle as a worthy or equal partner for Xena. I'm > assuming you wouldn't care what Gabs did on her own, or wouldn't be as hard > on her if she were a mere tagalong. What appears to irk you is that she > draws Xena in and doesn't seem to you to have the intelligence, courage or > physical skills to pull her own weight -- and that, for whatever reason, > Xena nevertheless risks her life. Yes! Well, Gabs certainly doesn't have the tactical ability or the physical skills. I wouldn't doubt her courage, but I would (on the occasions I call screw-ups, not that I like that term but I can't find a better) doubt her common sense. And what irks me (as you put it) are those occasions when Xena ends up in trouble because of something Gabby did, quite unnecessarily. I certainly don't mean to imply that everything Gabby does is a 'screw-up'. In a sense, you're arguing on the wrong ground. 'Action' is Xena's strong point, and it isn't Gabs'. So when Gabrielle introduces herself unnecessarily into the scene of the action, she's obviously going to be at a big disadvantage. Very much so up to 'Chakram'. Thereafter she gets better, but (as several episodes show) she still is nowhere near Xena's standards until FIN2. > On the other hand, Xena is a superior > being who doesn't need or rely upon Gabrielle. IOW, it's understood that > Xena can prevail alone, so you see no logical reason for Gabs to jump in. So far as fighting goes, yes. I'm quite aware that it's canon that Xena needs Gabby in other ways. > Gabs will fail without Xena, so any risk she takes must also involve risk > to Xena. Hence, anytime Gabs acts without consulting Xena could be > considered a "screw-up" (ignoring the fact that Xena will probably prevail > anyway). > > -- Ife (who'd developed a headache from this thread) I'd reserve the term 'screw-up' for a small number of particularly blatant occurrences, actually. It has to be not only unwise, but gratuitous. I certainly wouldn't use it for every occasion when Gabby acts on her own. In fact Gabby did have her own strong points, among them IIRC talking, storytelling, and cooking. Though we didn't see much of them in the series (other than frequent references to her storytelling ability). They *could* have shown a story where Gabby saved the situation by talking. In fact they did, on a few occasions. But as it's an action series, it would have been difficult to do so very often without incurring a major boredom factor, I think. Sorry for causing you a headache, by the way. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:52:51 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" In a message dated 11/3/2002 12:16:59 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: Ife said: > Regardless of how we saw them or their roles, > > they *acted* like a team, otherwise we both wouldn't be so sure that they > > could/would not exercise their right as an individual to say "no" to the > > other. > > Yes, but part of being a team is that the members should know their > respective roles and stick to them. It does not require that they both try > > to do the exact same thing whether they're very good at it or not. > You can have a two-person team in, say, rally driving. The co-driver reads > > the pace notes and the driver drives, and they both depend on each other to > do their job precisely and well, or they may end up seriously hurt. > It doesn't work if the co-driver grabs the wheel at critical moments ;)>> Ah, then we also have different notions of "team." I see a variety -- including both those with "role" players and those where members are interchangeable (as in tennis doubles or volleyball). In the latter, it's true that members have particular strengths that they try to favor when possible, but all members have to be able to serve or defend well and can be exploited by the opposition if it becomes apparent that certain members are too weak in a particular area. As a woman, one of the things I liked about XWP was that it didn't get stuck in the linear, competitive, one-role mold stereotypical of male action shows. I'm used to my female heroes being able to multi-task, to collaborate and "pitch in" without some "chain of command," to analyze situations on both emotional and physical levels, to let others lead and grow in a way that makes the team as well as individuals stronger. Yes, that can have its downsides and is not always appropriate, but I liked that we got to see the strengths of it, not just the downsides. I liked that we got to see both X&G become more multi-dimensional, multi-talented as individuals and as a team. I liked that they didn't have some hierarchy of abilities, with physical prowess automatically placed at the top and out of reach. Xena may have excelled in typically "masculine" areas, but I wouldn't have been nearly as captivated if I didn't also see both women as incorporating (and appreciating) typically "feminine" sensibilities. > > I have much more respect for Gabby when she uses her brains and acts > strategically, such as when she smuggled Xena's chacky in to her in Shark > Island Prison. I suppose one could say that's another case of her putting > herself in harm's way, but she was playing to her strengths i.e. talking, > rather than her weaknesses. >> Again, you typically like for Gabs to play the stereotypical "support" role - -- contributing to, but not being part of the "real" action. I liked that the "real" action on XWP included human interactions and emotions -- indeed, often drove the physical action. This meant that sometimes Gabs provided critical physical support (as when she knocked the sword from that guy's hand when Xena lay defenseless in GREATER GOOD) or for Xena to provide motivational and "teaching" support in helping Gabs learn certain skills or during her quest in season 4. Indeed, there's no way season 5 could've been done credibly with pregnant LL/Xena, had not Gabrielle been developed as a credible partner. > > > BTW, I'm not arguing anymore about "screw-ups" per se because I accept > that > > you don't seem to see Gabrielle as a worthy or equal partner for Xena. I' > m > > assuming you wouldn't care what Gabs did on her own, or wouldn't be as > hard > > on her if she were a mere tagalong. What appears to irk you is that she > > draws Xena in and doesn't seem to you to have the intelligence, courage or > > physical skills to pull her own weight -- and that, for whatever reason, > > Xena nevertheless risks her life. > > Yes! Well, Gabs certainly doesn't have the tactical ability or the > physical > skills. I wouldn't doubt her courage, but I would (on the occasions I call > > screw-ups, not that I like that term but I can't find a better) doubt her > common sense. > > And what irks me (as you put it) are those occasions when Xena ends up in > trouble because of something Gabby did, quite unnecessarily. I certainly > don't mean to imply that everything Gabby does is a 'screw-up'. > > In a sense, you're arguing on the wrong ground. 'Action' is Xena's strong > point, and it isn't Gabs'. So when Gabrielle introduces herself > unnecessarily into the scene of the action, she's obviously going to be at a > > big disadvantage. Very much so up to 'Chakram'. Thereafter she gets > better, but (as several episodes show) she still is nowhere near Xena's > standards until FIN2.>> Even if we stick to the physical level, Gabrielle didn't need to be Hercules to use her staff to save Xena in GREATER GOOD and DESTINY, or to stop Xena from killing those villagers in TIES THAT BIND. I would argue that by season 4, Gabs was firmly established in her physical skills, which didn't need to be as good as Xena's for her to be effective. (Oh, my goodness! I think I forgot to add LOCKED UP as another time Gabs saved Xena.) > I'd reserve the term 'screw-up' for a small number of particularly blatant > occurrences, actually. It has to be not only unwise, but gratuitous. I > certainly wouldn't use it for every occasion when Gabby acts on her own. >> In this whole discussion, you've given maybe 1-2 situations that you seem to think were "gratuitous" -- DEBT being the most obvious. I'm assuming you might include the Hope fiasco and GURKHAN. In correcting past screw-ups, Xena has put Gabs in danger, but you don't seem to think of those situations as "gratuitous." I fail to see the distinction, but, again, I'm assuming it stems from your assumption that Xena automatically gets the benefit of the doubt, whereas Gabrielle's actions must necessarily be questioned. > In fact Gabby did have her own strong points, among them IIRC talking, > storytelling, and cooking. Though we didn't see much of them in the series > > (other than frequent references to her storytelling ability). They *could* > > have shown a story where Gabby saved the situation by talking. In fact > they did, on a few occasions. But as it's an action series, it would have > > been difficult to do so very often without incurring a major boredom factor, > > I think.>> Yes, thank the gods they didn't relegate Gabs to "talking, storytelling and cooking" -- the stereotypical "support" role I mention above. However, she did use talking and listening as part of her arsenal, as well as hugging, giving water to the enemy, and kicking butt -- sometimes to save Xena, sometimes to save others. Thank the gods they didn't keep Xena from doing some of the above. And that, again, is my point. They were a team that between them used a variety of means to accomplish their goals. Just because one happened to be better at something, TPTB didn't keep them stuck there or make one method inherently, automatically superior to the other in all situations. > > Sorry for causing you a headache, by the way. > LOL! It's okay. I think I'm finally working through why we both have a Xena bias, but see Gabrielle so differently. You've certainly forced me to have a more well-rounded view of Gabs. - -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:25:46 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: [chakram-refugees] <> # # # # # # # When I first saw that this was next in line for season six I though "oh no this was such a weak episode" but on viewing it again I really enjoyed it. Frankly I forgot that this episode had Aphrodite in it and I didn't remember how much I enjoy a cranky Xena and a panic stricken tiny Gabrielle. The story opens at Aphrodite's temple where Xena is snoozing away peacefully and Gabrielle in a pair spiffy jamies (does Gabby carry these with her or does the temple provide sleepwear to those seeking shelter) is struggling with writer's block. In pops Aphrodite who is all solicitous concern for Gabby's problem and in no time at all Gabby is on the couch be analyzed by Dr. Sigmund Dite. After determined that Gabby's initial hostility is a result of certain unacknowledged latent tendencies Aphrodite gets to the crutch of Gabby's problem. Gabrielle can't write any longer. So Aphrodite gets Gabrielle to tell her the story of what happened that day - all this is done while Aphrodite by turns decides to have a pajama party and then a bubble bath ( with chocolate scented bubbles). So Gabby begins. That day Xena, Joxer, and Gabby are discussing baby names - Gabby has put forth Rochelle and Aloysius as names which were mercifully rejected by Xena (little Miles somewhere should also give a heart felt sigh of relief that his momma is very different from Gabby). Gabrielle is sanguine about the rebuff since she says it is natural for Xena to be cranky at this time. Xena takes umbrage at this since she has never ever been cranky - just ask Joxer. Joxer, in flash backs remember being pummeled, dropped and killed by Xena, agrees that Xena is indeed never cranky. Gabrielle scoffs at this and a bet is made - if Xena proves not to be cranky or doesn't lose her temper that day then Gabrielle will do a month of cooking, cleaning, and backrubs. The deal is struck - Xena then decides to go to town with Joxer for supplies and sends Gabby of to a stream to wash Argo. Gabby does as she is told (see that cr) but still gets in trouble. The stream is dedicated to the god Lachrymose a morose god who doesn't like horses washed in his stream. He shrinks Argo into a miniature horse (a very cute miniature horse). Gabrielle is appalled, panic stricken, and generally worried about Xena's blood pressure if she should see her tiny war-horse (as Gabrielle says "sometimes she thinks Xena likes Argo more than her"). Lachrymose will only change Argo back if Gabrielle can make him laugh -something he has never done. So Gabby launches into a montage of comedy escapades (did I mention this is a clip show) - bachae bunnies, Baby Bliss, naked dancing Gabrielle's, slapstick shtick galore is recounted to no avail. Gabrielle is in deep do do. Back in town Joxer is having his own problems with a fretful warrior princess. Xena is worried that she won't be a good mom - after scaring a crying baby mute she is sure she won't be a good mom. Joxer, manfully rises to the occasion, and reassures her that she will a loving mom. Even when Xena mentions that her baby will probably encounter giants and Joxer helpful chimes in that the baby will also probably encounter Bacchaes, dyads, and harpies, Xena will still be a good mom. Xena and Joxer bond and go off to the grocery story. Meanwhile Gabrielle has rushed into town to stall Xena about Argo and has now returned to the stream only to be told that Argo has wondered off to find Xena. Gabrielle goes in hot pursuit of Argo. At the grocery story, replete with shopping carts, wet floor signs, musac, and a warlord who is after Xena for putting his brother in prison (it is the same actor who played the warlord in The Show Fits so I think that is the incarcerated brother), Joxer and Xena shop for turnips, wheat, castor oil and prunes (digestive problems loom menacing before us). As Xena deals with the warlord by knocking him on his butt in a non-cranky way and encounters grocery clerks who don't like customers eating the produce before paying, Gabrielle has literary bumped into Argo at the store. Lachrymose has also shown up. Gabrielle tries to taunt him into returning Argo to his original size but instead he makes Gabrielle very, very tiny. This is how Joxer finds them and after flirting with visions of a great circus act, Joxer is dispatched to Lachymose. At the stream Joxer summons Lachrymose and regales him with tales of his traumatic childhood. Using clips of the D. W. Griffith movie Intolerance, Joxer tell his tragic tale of his father killed in a drunken chariot accident and a mother shoot full of arrows by creditors. Lachymose is not cheered by the tale but he did seemed entertained. Meanwhile Xena tired of waiting for Joxer returns to the tavern (Lillie here is another tavern for you) and announces she looking for a guy in a pointy hat. There upon a dozens priests in pointy hats arise asking if she is trying to be funny. Xena answers " no she just got lucky." Upset that she can't find Gabby or Joxer she whistles for her only true friend, Argo. Argo breaks away from Gabby runs to Xena as fast as little legs can carry him with tiny Gabby chasing him. Lachrymose wants zap Gabby but can't see her so Joxer get him to make her big again. Gabby now big, pins Lachy to a tree with her sais and she and Joxer go after Argo. At the tavern Xena hears Argo's footsteps and beams with pride at her horse's loyalty. She is stunned when a tiny Argo shows up and Xena get really upset (flashes of rat Xena from Paradise Found, Kahli Xena, Demon Xena, Bachae Xena (Lucy does the best slow burn since Edgar Kennedy who was famous for them in Abbot and Costello's films in the 1940s)). Gabby and Joxer arrive and although Gabrielle tries to hid behind Joxer, Xena nails her - not with a fist but a pie. This erupts in a glorious pie fight where everyone but Xena gets pied. The pie fight however seems to be more fun than mean spirited. Gabrielle is throwing pies in happy abandon and even the warlord seems resigned to being pied. Lachrymose appears in he midst of the chaos and Xena drops a pie on him and finally he laughs which breaks the spell. Argo is big again. As the tale ends, Aphrodite congratulates Gabrielle on bringing out Lachrymose's inner-child. Gabrielle now realizes that in her zeal to make the world a better place for the baby she has put aside what makes her happy. She now is resolved to write her scrolls again and her block is broken. She thanks Aphrodite and now can conclude her scroll. As she , Xena, and Joxer are leaving the village, they walk through a field. Xena is very pleased that she won the bet since she certainly never lost her temper today but suddenly she hears a noise and as she turns she gets a pie right in the kisser. As she glares around demanding who did that, you hear godly laughter. Very good episode. It was a cleaver idea to have a flashback (Gabby's story to Aphrodite) use flashbacks to illustrate the story. ROC is funny as the nervous Gabrielle who has shrunk Argo and as the tiny squeaky-voiced Gabby ( sidebar it was in the pie fight ROC got her only bloody nose during the series - - in fact you can see it a bit when she is firsts hit by Lucy or her stuntie) . Lucy is wonderful as the non-cranky Xena who worries about being a good momma and resolutely eats all the grocery store's produce. TR is pretty competent as Joxer who actually does some good here. Alex Tydings's Aphrodite just becomes sweeter all the time. It was a really great choice to make Aphrodite and Gabrielle friends, it is a classic example of an improbable friendship, a flighty valley girl and studious good girl - that always works well in stories. Next up Xena has a baby and Kevin Sorbo guest stars. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:24:32 EST From: KLOSSNER9@aol.com Subject: [chakram-refugees] Campbell on lecture circuit Arkansas Democrat-Gazette today -- Writer and thrust-chinned actor Bruce Campbell, best known for his appearances in the Evil Dead trilogy, will read from his book If Chins Could Talk: Confessions of a B-Movie Actor, at 7:30 p.m. Thurday [Nov. 7] in Ida Walton Auditoriuum, Main Hall, University of Central Arkansas, Conway. Campbell's appearance is part of the Central Arkansas Writers Art Series, sponsored by UCA's Department of Writing and Speech. It's also part of UCA's Artists in Residence program, coordinated by the College of Fine Arts and Communication. Campbell will meet with UCA writing students in a workshop that afternoon. Leading up to Campbell's appearance on campus, the Writers Art Series will hold an Evil Dead Film Festival at 2:30 p.m. Monday-Wednesday in Film Room 1 in the basement of UCA's Main Hall. /// The article goes on to mention his other credits, including Xena and Hercules. Boeotian ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #303 **************************************