From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #299 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Thursday, October 31 2002 Volume 02 : Number 299 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> [cr ] Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena srew-ups [Sekhmet209@aol.com] Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [IfeRae@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:34:24 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" On Wednesday 30 October 2002 08:21, IfeRae@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/28/02 10:15:43 PM Central Standard Time, > cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > > Ife wrote: > > Gabrielle wanted to rescue *her* relative, avenge *her* family's death. > > Hope was Gabrielle's child. Perdicus was *her* husband. Why did Xena > > have to take responsibility for them? Xena went against Gabrielle's > > wishes, as a parent might a child. Whatever Xena suffered as a result > > was because of her own need to do what *she* thought right, the same as > > Gabrielle. > > Well, what you're saying in effect is, Xena shoulda let Gabby go and get > herself killed? (I do so totally agree with that idea, btw..... ;)>> > > LOL! Bad boy! I'm saying Gabs had the same right to get herself killed as > Xena. Well, yes, but in principle, if one is going to get oneself killed, it is a moral requirement that one makes sure other people won't get themselves killed trying to rescue one. Or in the context of XWP, Xena should make sure that Gabby was Somewhere Else when Xena risked her neck (which Xena usually tried to do), and Gabby shoulda made sure Xena was somewhere else (which she was rather less consistent about). > < of Gabby's own actions? >> > > I'm not blaming her for anything. I'm saying it was her choice. In the > same vein, I'm saying I don't blame Gabs for Xena's choices. I'm generally > not real big on blame and guilt, as they often end up being ends in > themselves that take the focus away from the underlying issues. OK, I tend to agree with you there. > > < > situation, and Xena interefered unnecessarily, and Gabs had to rescue > > her. > > > > > > Hah, because Xena made sure Gabs didn't get that chance. > > Well, the only way I can interpret that is, that Xena was competent to get > herself out of most situations without requiring rescue from Gabby. >> > > Agreed. Or she went off on her own so that Gabs couldn't interfere. Going > after Ming Tien was probably suicidal for anybody except Xena: Houdini > Princess. Who knows what might've happened, had Gabs not bought some time. That's a curious way of looking at it, I thought Gabs effectively betrayed Xena to Ming. Without that, Xena would've killed the guy and been long gone before anyone in the palace found him. Umm, I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'bought some time' though. > Now that I think of it, going after Grindle was considered "suicidal." > Indeed, Xena wasn't doing so well in that cave, until Gabs came running to > the rescue with the chakram and jumped on Grindle's back. Yes! Add that > to my list of Gab saves. Agreed, add that to the list. > > Later, Xena saves her own child, even after that > > child massacred people. One could argue that Livia didn't kill Xena > > because Xena was able to call on Eli's help. She couldn't have done > > that if Gabrielle hadn't respected Eli's wish to become a martyr to > > peace. > > I never called Gabby letting Eli get killed a screw-up. For several > reasons - first, because Gabby didn't place herself in that position > unnecessarily or in defiance of Xena; >> > > Whoa! I didn't mean to imply that, but now that you mention it, that > should definitely qualify as one of your defiant Gab examples. It was very > clear that both Gabs and Xena understood Xena's instructions to protect Eli > -- body as well as soul. Heck, Xena reamed Gabs out for not following > orders: "What about what *I* told you to do?" Didn't we just debate that? There was some heat on both sides of that argument, if you recall. Xena and Gabs argument, I mean, not the argument on the list :) > < anyway, regardless of anything Gaby tried to do. It wasn't really Gabs' > decision, as it turned out.>> > > Okay, but that's all hindsight. Gabs was prepared to give her life > defending Eli. It was indeed her decision as to whether to keep fighting > or turn her back. Yes, and IMO, it was a reasonable decision of Gabs'. I'm not sure if, when Xena told her to protect Eli, she envisaged Gabs standing up against Ares himself, but IMO that was not a practical or reasonable thing to expect. But anyway, that situation didn't arise from any gratuitous error of judgement on Gabs' part, so it can't ever be called a 'screw-up', IMO. (I guess one could wonder if Xena should maybe have foreseen Ares turning up.... but then, he could have appeared at any time, I don't think one can strongly criticise Xena for not having foreseen it either). > << I thought you were talking here about the number of times one of them > rescued > the other, *not* just as a consequence of Gabs disobeying Xena's orders. > And if you count the number of Gab-rescues, irrespective of cause, then > the number is pretty substantial. Do I have to go through every ep? > (Specially in Seasons 1 & 2....)>> > > You said one aspect of "screw-ups" for you was putting the other in harm's > way unnecessarily, especially in defiance of the other's wishes. That's essentially what I still do (though I also include derailing plans in the category, for example The Debt which didn't require a Gab-rescue. Though I do think that Ming, after killing Xena, might probably have decided to make Gabs quietly disappear too just to make sure....) > I thought > that was a good way to be more specific, as otherwise we could be including > iffy times when one protected the other in the middle of a fight. Well, yes. And it's always a problem as soon as one starts counting incidents, as to which incidents qualify and which don't..... > I can > think of 6-8 times Gabs actually or potentially saved Xena. I can think of > about 12 times Xena rescued Gabs. I don't think it's fair to include > situations when Gabs was minding her own business or caught up in one of > Xena's escapades, because her character wasn't set up to be the physical > hero. But if you want to include those, then I'll give you that Xena > probably saved Gabs twice as many times as the other way around. Happy? I think I could demonstrate more, but I won't argue the point, and it's a side issue anyway, as you say, her character wasn't set up as the 'warrior' and one could argue that part of her 'job' was to get rescued. Certainly in earlier eps. > > From her standpoint, she achieved her goals and > > was prepared to give her life if necessary. > > But she didn't, she got saved by Xena at great personal risk every time. > >> > > She still either achieved her goals or might have if Xena hadn't > intervened. Umm, we're talking about the girl who couldn't bring herself to kill her husband's murderer? Now getting captured certainly wasn't her goal, nor did Xena intervene till later. (Well, Xena tried to warn her off, but she ignored it). > Take Gurkhan again. Gabby must have known that killing him with Xena > there > would inevitably involve, not just her, but Xena. Turn it round the > other way - if Xena went and killed somebody and got herself and Gabby > captured, would Xena consider that acceptable? I think not. She would > have made sure Gabby was in the clear. So if Gabby was going to go > against Xena's wishes and sacrifice herself, she should at least have made > sure Xena wasn't around when she did do. IMO.>> > > I don't think Gabs meant to sacrifice herself initially. Yes, I believe > she thought they would go afater Gurkhan together, but had no real plan for > doing that. She went in alone only after Xena had beaten her to it. > History should've told Xena that Gabrielle would follow her and try to do > her part. I think it was just as unrealistic for Xena to ignore that fact, > as it was for Gabrielle to believe Xena would let her go on some suicide > mission. Well, Xena was relying on - umm, whosits - Homer, nope, Virgil, to keep her out of the way. But of course Virgil was less reliable than his father. ;) > > The main difference is that > > she was an ordinary person, without benefit of the supernatural skills > > and supposed foresight that made Xena seem more inherently capable, no > > matter what the situation. > > Possibly because Xena *was* inherently more capable? I think that's the > way it was written and intended.>> > > Agreed. But she wasn't perfect. Gabrielle often filled in the gaps or > broadened Xena's perspective in ways that made Xena a more effective hero. Well yes, that was one of the established themes of the show in fact. > > The few times Xena's gifts weren't sufficient to save > > her (e.g., SINS, GREATER GOOD, DESTINY, SACRIFICE, CRUSADER, FIN), Gabs > > came to the rescue. > > Yes, and I certainly give her credit for those. You could add Chakram > (joint credit with Amarice) and maybe some others. >> > > Oh, thanks! That makes 6-9 Gab saves, to 12 or so for Xena. But don't > worry, I'm still willing to accept twice as many Xena rescues. I'm just > not willing to conced that more than half of those resulted from Gab > "srew-ups." > > -- Ife I never argued that they were. In fact I'll say that most rescues of Gabs did not result from Gabby screw-ups, (and I can't think, off-hand, of any rescues of Xena that resulted from Xena screw-ups, either). (As always, I exclude minor errors of judgement from the category of 'screw-ups'). cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:41:32 +1300 From: cr Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> On Wednesday 30 October 2002 13:08, Cheryl Ande wrote: > cr wrote: > > "As to why it was unpopular - well, the gay fans were upset because of > Joxer's gay-bashing of Jace, even though he was shown to be wrong to do > so, the Gabfans were upset because Gabs was shown to be jealous of Joxer, > and because of Draco's unwelcome attentions, the Joxerfans were upset > because Amoria dumped Joxer for Draco, the feminists were upset because > these Amazons > " appeared to rather like men... (I'm not making this up, I've seen all > those complaints made). Makes me wonder how TPTB ever managed to make a > complete season....." > > Hmm it is odd how people just can't drop their personal preferences or > prejudices and just enjoy a good time. *Some* people.... not all, I think. :) > Personally as you well know I am a > subtext fan but I can understand why Gabby was jealous - it's hard to see > anyone who adores you (even if you aren't interetsed) suddenly get > interested in someone else - you feel as if you lost your own personal fan > club. Oh, precisely. It's ordinary human nature. As you know I'm not a subtexter , but I quite understood (and laughed appreciatively at) Xena's grumbles of discontent when Gabby promptly takes off for Piraeus at the start of The Play's The Thing. That works whether you believe in subtext or not. > As for Amoria liking men - well some Amazons have to like men or > there are no little Amazons (perhaps some of feminist can think of Amoria > as bisexual and she was just in bi-mode at the time). Yes, a question TPTB never resolved, at least in XWP. Where did little Amazons come from? They explainded the origin in Amazon High (Lifeblood), where all the men of the tribe were killed by enemies, but of course that doesn't explain how they continued to exist. They had two tries in Herc - in Herc and the Amazon Women, (I'd actually typed 'Hera and the Amazon Women ' there - a very apposite freudian typo I think :) anyway, the Amazons there were the result of the Battle of the Sexes escalating into a cold war, all the women moved out and became the Amazons. They would raid the village for the sole purpose of reproducing (sounds idyllic to me :). The Amazons' patron deity, Hera (not Artemis) wanted them to kill all the men in the village, but Herc managed to get both sides back together. Thereby incidentally causing the Amazons to cease to exist. Good for family life but not feminism ;) The other one was in Prodigal Sister, where the renegade Amazon tribe just kidnapped girl children and killed their parents. Again, not a very satisfactory explanation for Amazon sympathisers. > > "Cyrene: "You've always danced to the beat of your own drum, Xena. I > suppose it would be foolish of me to stop you now." > X: "Thanks, Mom." > "Cyr: "Now, who did you say the father was?" > > Personally I would have loved to see Xena try to explain how dead Callisto > now a golden angel got her pregnant. Cyrene would have been out hunting up > the ancient Greek equivalent of a shrink for her daughter Yes! :) And just as well Xena didn't give the same asnwer as she gave to Ares, or Cyrene would have been looking at Gabby in a very strange way thereafter.... > > And her efforts inspired one of the great lines of the ep, from Xena: > > "Well, make it snappy. I've got a lot of single Greek losers to turn > > down." > > I also liked when Xena says to Mom another Greek loser is produced: > " It's no wonder I left home at such an early age." > > > > Gabrielle - is she jealous that Joxer has found a new girlfriend - how > > perplexing? > > "A perfectly normal human reaction, actually. As was the fact that she > didn't get much sympathy from Xena. > > Xena: "Well, hey, if _you're_ not gonna take him, it's not fair of you to > stop someone _else_ from tryin?" > > Well actually I wan't confused by her jealously I just thought Gabrielle > was preplexed by her reaction. You mean, when Gabby asks Xena what she thinks about Joxer and Amoria and Xena says "Works for me." ? > Alos Lucy's reading of the lines in this > scene is interestint at first she seemed upset by Gabby's reaction then she > swings into a teasing mode. It's as you say. IMO, Gabby was expecting Xena to share her (Gabby's) dislike of the Joxer-Amoria relationship, Xena didn't realise Gabby was so 'anti' and thought it was quite okay. They were both surprised that the other didn't share their own views. (Hope that's not too obscure, it's very hard to put succinctly :) > "My absolute favourite guest was Amoria - Gillian Iliana Waters. > Absolutely gorgeous. Now that's a chick and a half. ;-)" > > Indeed she was wonderful and such a great singer. She and Lucy were > terrific together. > > CherylA > I certainly thought they were, yes. I don't know anything else she's done, I don't know if she's an actor or a singer. cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:16:15 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena srew-ups I've been following the argument about Xena srew-ups now there are plenty of Xena screw-up if you look in the right time line. Let's count them: 1. Destiny - Young Xena trusts Caesar to be her partner in conquering the world - she gets crucified instead. Mi'lia does try to warn her but she doesn't listen. 2. The Debt - Xena kidnaps Ming Tien thus causing Borias to betray her and she gets captured and nearly executed. Then after Lo Mao rescues her she goes against Lo Mao's wishes kills Ming Tien's father and nearly kills Ming Tien. This is a real screw-up because she should have realized Lo Mao would noy have allowed her to kill her son. 3. Past Imperfect - Xena never tumbles to the fact Satrina is more that she appears - she isn't suspicious at all that her little maid seems to be very interested in military strategy. This obliviousness gets Borias killed. 4. Sin Trade - Xena rejects Cyane's offers to be an Amazon and instead allies with Alti which apparently got Xena nothing but trouble in later years. 5. Locked Up, Tied Down - Xena leaves Thalassa bleeding and tied up where crabs could torture the woman thus leading to all kinds of trouble a 10 years latter. 6. The Ring - Xena had a pretty good thing going in Valhalla but she had to have the Rhinegold and she wasn't too subtle about it. Wound up with half the Valkary chasing her, when she had the chance she doesn't kill her most dangerous opponenet and winds up losing the ring to her. 7. FIN - Trusts Akemi, reveals the pinch to her, gets drunk and burns a town down. Then in the present doesn't apparently gets all the afterlife rules before allowing her head to be chopped off. All these actions cause Xena and Gabrielle much trouble in the coming years. Xena, I'm sure, knowing that own youth wasn't error free, is unstandably tolerant of Gabrielle's screw-ups. While Gabrielle may cause Xena some effort in rescuring her, Gabrielle also did not go around creating monsters and other catastrophies that take a life-time to correct. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:34:57 EST From: Sekhmet209@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] Re: Xena srew-ups In a message dated 10/30/02 9:16:56 AM, cande@sunlink.net writes: >While Gabrielle may cause Xena some effort >in rescuring her, Gabrielle also did not go around creating monsters and >other >catastrophies that take a life-time to correct. Oh, I dunno about that... imagine what could have happened with the Titans problem if Xena hadn't been around to stop them before they really got going! - --Sekhmet ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:54:08 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" In a message dated 10/30/02 3:31:07 AM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: > Well, what you're saying in effect is, Xena shoulda let Gabby go and get > herself killed? (I do so totally agree with that idea, btw..... ;)>> > > LOL! Bad boy! I'm saying Gabs had the same right to get herself killed as > Xena. Well, yes, but in principle, if one is going to get oneself killed, it is a moral requirement that one makes sure other people won't get themselves killed trying to rescue one.>> I'm not sure I agree with your "moral requirement." It certainly takes away the element of free will of others who might want to participate in a particular mission, as well as assumes that the leader and/or the rest of the group expect to die, rather than simply being prepared to die. In addition, how on earth do you make sure nobody tries to rescue you, or know absolutely that they will die trying? How can you focus on the primary goal, if you're more worried about figuring out how to keep anybody else from participating? << Or in the context of XWP, Xena should make sure that Gabby was Somewhere Else when Xena risked her neck (which Xena usually tried to do), and Gabby shoulda made sure Xena was somewhere else (which she was rather less consistent about).>> As I noted above, even Xena couldn't do that. She left Gabs before Chin and before setting out to get the Grindle. Do you want them to tie each other up before they go off? I think that's unrealistic, not to mention extremely patronizing and arrogant in terms of people you love who should have every right to go down in flames with you if they want. >Going > after Ming Tien was probably suicidal for anybody except Xena: Houdini > Princess. Who knows what might've happened, had Gabs not bought some time. That's a curious way of looking at it, I thought Gabs effectively betrayed Xena to Ming. Without that, Xena would've killed the guy and been long gone before anyone in the palace found him. Umm, I guess I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'bought some time' though.>> See, you assume Xena would've gotten out as easily as she got in, simply because she's Xena. Did you consider it was so easy precisely because it was a trap, that otherwise Xena might've been caught getting in or trying to leave? I'm not excusing Gabs, but simply saying that she might've saved Xena from a suicidal situation. > > The few times Xena's gifts weren't sufficient to save > > her (e.g., SINS, GREATER GOOD, DESTINY, SACRIFICE, CRUSADER, FIN), Gabs > > came to the rescue. > > Yes, and I certainly give her credit for those. You could add Chakram > (joint credit with Amarice) and maybe some others. >> > > Oh, thanks! That makes 6-9 Gab saves, to 12 or so for Xena. But don't > worry, I'm still willing to accept twice as many Xena rescues. I'm just > not willing to conced that more than half of those resulted from Gab > "srew-ups." > > -- Ife I never argued that they were. In fact I'll say that most rescues of Gabs did not result from Gabby screw-ups, (and I can't think, off-hand, of any rescues of Xena that resulted from Xena screw-ups, either). (As always, I exclude minor errors of judgement from the category of 'screw-ups').>> Ah. Then it appears we agree after all. - -- Ife ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xg03.mx.aol.com (rly-xg03.mail.aol.com [172.20.115.200]) by air-xg03.mail.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXG32-1030043107; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:31:07 -0400 Received: from smtp.orcon.net.nz (smtp.orcon.net.nz [210.55.12.4]) by rly-xg03.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXG310-1030043224; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:32:24 -0500 Received: from there (port-219-88-249-235.orcon.net.nz [219.88.249.235]) by smtp.orcon.net.nz (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F4147418D; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:32:27 +1300 (NZDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: cr Reply-To: cr@orcon.net.nz To: IfeRae@aol.com, chakram-refugees@smoe.org Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:34:24 +1300 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1] References: <17.30ca1c58.2af039a7@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <17.30ca1c58.2af039a7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20021030093227.4F4147418D@smtp.orcon.net.nz> ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #299 **************************************