From: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org (chakram-refugees-digest) To: chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #298 Reply-To: chakram-refugees@smoe.org Sender: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-chakram-refugees-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk chakram-refugees-digest Wednesday, October 30 2002 Volume 02 : Number 298 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" [IfeRae@aol.com] [chakram-refugees] o/t The Oblongs [] Re: [chakram-refugees] <> ["Cheryl Ande" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:21:11 EST From: IfeRae@aol.com Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" In a message dated 10/28/02 10:15:43 PM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz writes: Ife wrote: > Gabrielle wanted to rescue *her* relative, avenge *her* family's death. > Hope was Gabrielle's child. Perdicus was *her* husband. Why did Xena > have to take responsibility for them? Xena went against Gabrielle's > wishes, as a parent might a child. Whatever Xena suffered as a result was > because of her own need to do what *she* thought right, the same as > Gabrielle. Well, what you're saying in effect is, Xena shoulda let Gabby go and get herself killed? (I do so totally agree with that idea, btw..... ;)>> LOL! Bad boy! I'm saying Gabs had the same right to get herself killed as Xena. <> I'm not blaming her for anything. I'm saying it was her choice. In the same vein, I'm saying I don't blame Gabs for Xena's choices. I'm generally not real big on blame and guilt, as they often end up being ends in themselves that take the focus away from the underlying issues. > < situation, and Xena interefered unnecessarily, and Gabs had to rescue her. > > > Hah, because Xena made sure Gabs didn't get that chance. Well, the only way I can interpret that is, that Xena was competent to get herself out of most situations without requiring rescue from Gabby. >> Agreed. Or she went off on her own so that Gabs couldn't interfere. Going after Ming Tien was probably suicidal for anybody except Xena: Houdini Princess. Who knows what might've happened, had Gabs not bought some time. Now that I think of it, going after Grindle was considered "suicidal." Indeed, Xena wasn't doing so well in that cave, until Gabs came running to the rescue with the chakram and jumped on Grindle's back. Yes! Add that to my list of Gab saves. > It was always > left vague as to whether Hope might've turned out differently under > Gabrielle's tutelage. Not to my mind, but let that pass....>> Okey dokey. > Later, Xena saves her own child, even after that > child massacred people. One could argue that Livia didn't kill Xena > because Xena was able to call on Eli's help. She couldn't have done that > if Gabrielle hadn't respected Eli's wish to become a martyr to peace. I never called Gabby letting Eli get killed a screw-up. For several reasons - first, because Gabby didn't place herself in that position unnecessarily or in defiance of Xena; >> Whoa! I didn't mean to imply that, but now that you mention it, that should definitely qualify as one of your defiant Gab examples. It was very clear that both Gabs and Xena understood Xena's instructions to protect Eli -- body as well as soul. Heck, Xena reamed Gabs out for not following orders: "What about what *I* told you to do?" <> Okay, but that's all hindsight. Gabs was prepared to give her life defending Eli. It was indeed her decision as to whether to keep fighting or turn her back. << I thought you were talking here about the number of times one of them rescued the other, *not* just as a consequence of Gabs disobeying Xena's orders. And if you count the number of Gab-rescues, irrespective of cause, then the number is pretty substantial. Do I have to go through every ep? (Specially in Seasons 1 & 2....)>> You said one aspect of "screw-ups" for you was putting the other in harm's way unnecessarily, especially in defiance of the other's wishes. I thought that was a good way to be more specific, as otherwise we could be including iffy times when one protected the other in the middle of a fight. I can think of 6-8 times Gabs actually or potentially saved Xena. I can think of about 12 times Xena rescued Gabs. I don't think it's fair to include situations when Gabs was minding her own business or caught up in one of Xena's escapades, because her character wasn't set up to be the physical hero. But if you want to include those, then I'll give you that Xena probably saved Gabs twice as many times as the other way around. Happy? > From her standpoint, she achieved her goals and > was prepared to give her life if necessary. But she didn't, she got saved by Xena at great personal risk every time. >> She still either achieved her goals or might have if Xena hadn't intervened. Take Gurkhan again. Gabby must have known that killing him with Xena there would inevitably involve, not just her, but Xena. Turn it round the other way - if Xena went and killed somebody and got herself and Gabby captured, would Xena consider that acceptable? I think not. She would have made sure Gabby was in the clear. So if Gabby was going to go against Xena's wishes and sacrifice herself, she should at least have made sure Xena wasn't around when she did do. IMO.>> I don't think Gabs meant to sacrifice herself initially. Yes, I believe she thought they would go afater Gurkhan together, but had no real plan for doing that. She went in alone only after Xena had beaten her to it. History should've told Xena that Gabrielle would follow her and try to do her part. I think it was just as unrealistic for Xena to ignore that fact, as it was for Gabrielle to believe Xena would let her go on some suicide mission. > The main difference is that > she was an ordinary person, without benefit of the supernatural skills and > supposed foresight that made Xena seem more inherently capable, no matter > what the situation. Possibly because Xena *was* inherently more capable? I think that's the way it was written and intended.>> Agreed. But she wasn't perfect. Gabrielle often filled in the gaps or broadened Xena's perspective in ways that made Xena a more effective hero. > The few times Xena's gifts weren't sufficient to save > her (e.g., SINS, GREATER GOOD, DESTINY, SACRIFICE, CRUSADER, FIN), Gabs > came to the rescue. Yes, and I certainly give her credit for those. You could add Chakram (joint credit with Amarice) and maybe some others. >> Oh, thanks! That makes 6-9 Gab saves, to 12 or so for Xena. But don't worry, I'm still willing to accept twice as many Xena rescues. I'm just not willing to conced that more than half of those resulted from Gab "srew-ups." -- Ife ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:18:08 -0500 From: Subject: [chakram-refugees] o/t The Oblongs I watched The Oblongs last night (on Tape) and enjoyed it very much. There must have been a Xenafan on staff simply because the Velva night was a Tuesday and that was the traditional Meow Mix night (alos like the asides about the little girl wining up a lesbian because of Velva). Also Birds Of Prey (which I Like) also must have a Xenafan lurking someway. I mentioned a very Callisto like villianess and a round killing thing but the other night the villinaess mentioned the gods Strife and Discord. CherylA ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:08:36 -0500 From: "Cheryl Ande" Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <> cr wrote: > "As to why it was unpopular - well, the gay fans were upset because of Joxer's gay-bashing of Jace, even though he was shown to be wrong to do so, the Gabfans were upset because Gabs was shown to be jealous of Joxer, and because of Draco's unwelcome attentions, the Joxerfans were upset because Amoria dumped Joxer for Draco, the feminists were upset because these Amazons " appeared to rather like men... (I'm not making this up, I've seen all those complaints made). Makes me wonder how TPTB ever managed to make a complete season....." Hmm it is odd how people just can't drop their personal preferences or prejudices and just enjoy a good time. Personally as you well know I am a subtext fan but I can understand why Gabby was jealous - it's hard to see anyone who adores you (even if you aren't interetsed) suddenly get interested in someone else - you feel as if you lost your own personal fan club. As for Amoria liking men - well some Amazons have to like men or there are no little Amazons (perhaps some of feminist can think of Amoria as bisexual and she was just in bi-mode at the time). "Cyrene: "You've always danced to the beat of your own drum, Xena. I suppose it would be foolish of me to stop you now." X: "Thanks, Mom." "Cyr: "Now, who did you say the father was?" Personally I would have loved to see Xena try to explain how dead Callisto now a golden angel got her pregnant. Cyrene would have been out hunting up the ancient Greek equivalent of a shrink for her daughter > > And her efforts inspired one of the great lines of the ep, from Xena: > "Well, make it snappy. I've got a lot of single Greek losers to turn down." I also liked when Xena says to Mom another Greek loser is produced: " It's no wonder I left home at such an early age." > > > Gabrielle - is she jealous that Joxer has found a new girlfriend - how perplexing? > "A perfectly normal human reaction, actually. As was the fact that she didn't get much sympathy from Xena. Xena: "Well, hey, if _you're_ not gonna take him, it's not fair of you to stop someone _else_ from tryin?" Well actually I wan't confused by her jealously I just thought Gabrielle was preplexed by her reaction. Alos Lucy's reading of the lines in this scene is interestint at first she seemed upset by Gabby's reaction then she swings into a teasing mode. > > "My absolute favourite guest was Amoria - Gillian Iliana Waters. Absolutely gorgeous. Now that's a chick and a half. ;-)" Indeed she was wonderful and such a great singer. She and Lucy were terrific together. CherylA > > cr ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:16:37 -0500 From: Cousin Liz Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] o/t The Oblongs cande@sunlink.net wrote: > Also Birds Of Prey (which I Like) also must have a > Xenafan lurking someway. That would be Adam Armus. He's a writer and producer for "Birds of Prey" and also wrote for "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" and "Xena: Warrior Princess." - -- Cousin Liz eas01@fast.net Soulmates Xena Dinosaur Bards http://cousinliz.com ========================================================= This has been a message to the chakram-refugees list. To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@smoe.org with "unsubscribe chakram-refugees" in the message body. Contact meth@smoe.org with any questions or problems. ========================================================= ------------------------------ End of chakram-refugees-digest V2 #298 **************************************