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Subject: chakram-refugees-digest V2 #297
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chakram-refugees-digest   Tuesday, October 29 2002   Volume 02 : Number 297



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Lyre, Lyre. Hearts On Fire>>      [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" (was Re: Seeds Of Faith]  [IfeRae@a]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Lyre, Lyre. Hearts On Fire>>      [IfeRae@aol.com]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Lyre, Lyre. Hearts On Fire>>  [cr <cr@orcon.net.n]
  Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" (was Re: Seeds Of Faith]  [cr <cr@o]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:53:22 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Lyre, Lyre. Hearts On Fire>>

In a message dated 10/27/02 2:57:44 PM Central Standard Time, 
cande@sunlink.net writes:

<< At the heart of this episode are two wonderful performances.  Lucy is
 wonderful simply because she seems so happy - dancing and singing with gusto.
 She must have felt great doing this episode and topped it off one the great
 practical jokes of all time as seen in the credits - dancing out in ROC's
 white bikini.  The other really good performance is Ted Raimi's Jace.  Jace 
is
 Joxer's presumably gay brother - with his flamboyant style and faux Hispanic
 accents her is very funny but yet there is a real dignity to Jace.  Unlike
 Joxer who is trying to be something his not, Jace has found his place and is
 happy.  Jace for all his eccentricity is the more mature of the two brothers.
  >>

I continue to be one of those who love this ep.  I have the soundtrack and 
play it in my car -- especially "Sisters."  Like you, I was thrilled to see 
how much fun the cast was having.  To see a pregnant Lucy singing, dancing, 
showing off her belly was a great celebration of a star who's as 
multi-faceted as XWP.  It's a great "feel good" ep that I never tire of 
watching.  Like you, I don't quite understand the negative response of some 
fans.  There was something for everybody, even if you weren't a fan of every 
type of music.  Oh well.

- -- Ife
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Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:00:26 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" (was Re: Seeds Of Faith]

In a message dated 10/27/02 7:29:15 PM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< But what I really call 'screw-ups' are those occasions when Gabs gets 
herself 
 into trouble by deliberately going against Xena's instructions, and causing 
 Xena major trouble or suffering  (Gurkhan being the instance that leaps most 
 obviously to mind).    Those being occasions when Xena could have handled 
the 
 situation perfectly well by herself without interference from Gabs.>>

Gabrielle wanted to rescue *her* relative, avenge *her* family's death.   
Hope was Gabrielle's child.  Perdicus was *her* husband.   Why did Xena have 
to take responsibility for them?  Xena went against Gabrielle's wishes, as a 
parent might a child.  Whatever Xena suffered as a result was because of her 
own need to do what *she* thought right, the same as Gabrielle.   
 
 <<Now I can't think of *any* occasion when Gabs could have handled the 
 situation, and Xena interefered unnecessarily, and Gabs had to rescue her.  
>>

Hah, because Xena made sure Gabs didn't get that chance.  It was always left 
vague as to whether Hope might've turned out differently under Gabrielle's 
tutelage.  Later, Xena saves her own child, even after that child massacred 
people.  One could argue that Livia didn't kill Xena because Xena was able to 
call on Eli's help.  She couldn't have done that if Gabrielle hadn't 
respected Eli's wish to become a martyr to peace.
 
  > If we're going to criticize Gabs for putting herself in harm's way,
 > necessitating rescue by Xena, then I can't see why the same couldn't be
 > said of Xena.  Gabrielle was willing to put her life on the line without
 > Xena's intervention.  It was Xena's own protectiveness that made her decide
 > Gabs had to live no matter what.  Now that I think about it, I'm not sure
 > Xena saved Gabrielle that many more times than the other way around -- not
 > including the times when Xena ordered, "Get behind me."   
 
 Oh dear, do I have to count them all?   It would be a long list.....>>

I'm not sure that's true, but why not give it a go?  The TITANS, RETURN OF 
CALLISTO and DEBT are among the few times I recall Gabs requiring rescue 
purely out of arrogant dismissal of Xena's orders. (As you recall, Xena 
tricked Gabrielle in GURKHAN.  And Xena did not tell Gabs she couldn't go out 
to give the Horde water.) In most other situations, it was because she was 
Xena's friend, was fighting beside Xena, happened to be in the wrong place, 
or had to act quickly to save someone's life or help a friend without time to 
consult Xena (e.g., BLIND FAITH, HOOVES, MARINER, the bacchae ep, TSUNAMI).   
You can count those times, but I don't think it's fair to say that Gabrielle 
screwed-up, as her involvement was either accidental or the same kind of 
instinctive assistance that Xena would've given.
 
 > I'm pretty
 > confident you'll see some distinction that makes Xena sensible and Gabs a
 > screw-up in these situations.  I'm interested to hear what that is.  <g>
 >
 > -- Ife
 
 OK.   When is it sensible?   When Xena (or whoever, including on occasion 
 Gabs) is the most capable person to do what is necessary.   When is it a 
 screw-up?   When it is quite unnecessary, when the person doing it has no 
 hope of carrying it out successfully, when they have to be rescued by 
someone 
 else at great risk to that someone else...
  >>

If we define "success" or "necessary" from Xena's perspective, then she will 
usually be the "sensible" one, especially since the assumption is that she's 
the most capable of doing just about anything to achieve the impossible.  
Gabrielle successfully freed the Titans, got in the position to kill 
Callisto, protected baby Hope, initially stopped Xena from killing Ming 
T'ien, saved Xena from having her lifeline snipped, and probably would've 
killed Gurkhan.  From her standpoint, she achieved her goals and was prepared 
to give her life if necessary.  The main difference is that she was an 
ordinary person, without benefit of the supernatural skills and supposed 
foresight that made Xena seem more inherently capable, no matter what the 
situation.  The few times Xena's gifts weren't sufficient to save her (e.g., 
SINS, GREATER GOOD, DESTINY, SACRIFICE, CRUSADER, FIN), Gabs came to the 
rescue.  

- -- Ife
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:04:12 EST
From: IfeRae@aol.com
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Lyre, Lyre. Hearts On Fire>>

In a message dated 10/27/02 8:31:33 PM Central Standard Time, cr@orcon.net.nz 
writes:

<< My absolute favourite guest was Amoria - Gillian Iliana Waters.    
Absolutely 
 gorgeous.    Now that's a chick and a half.    ;-)
  >>

Amen.  I always wished one of the official publications had done an interview 
with her.  I'm not sure there's even a photo available.  I saw a couple of 
posts where folks thought she overpowered Lucy, but I think the opposite is 
true -- that she contributed an energy that Lucy got off on and completely 
enjoyed.

- -- Ife
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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:19:37 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] <<Lyre, Lyre. Hearts On Fire>>

On Tuesday 29 October 2002 08:04, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/27/02 8:31:33 PM Central Standard Time,
> cr@orcon.net.nz writes:
>
> << My absolute favourite guest was Amoria - Gillian Iliana Waters.
> Absolutely
>  gorgeous.    Now that's a chick and a half.    ;-)
>
>
> Amen.  I always wished one of the official publications had done an
> interview with her.  I'm not sure there's even a photo available.  I saw a
> couple of posts where folks thought she overpowered Lucy, but I think the
> opposite is true -- that she contributed an energy that Lucy got off on and
> completely enjoyed.
>
> -- Ife

I'd take it that way.   I never thought she overpowered Lucy.   I just 
enjoyed her presence on screen.

cr
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Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:18:01 +1300
From: cr <cr@orcon.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [chakram-refugees] X&G "Screw-ups" (was Re: Seeds Of Faith]

On Tuesday 29 October 2002 08:00, IfeRae@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/27/02 7:29:15 PM Central Standard Time,
> cr@orcon.net.nz writes:
>
> << But what I really call 'screw-ups' are those occasions when Gabs gets
> herself
>  into trouble by deliberately going against Xena's instructions, and
> causing Xena major trouble or suffering  (Gurkhan being the instance that
> leaps most obviously to mind).    Those being occasions when Xena could
> have handled the
>  situation perfectly well by herself without interference from Gabs.>>
>
> Gabrielle wanted to rescue *her* relative, avenge *her* family's death.
> Hope was Gabrielle's child.  Perdicus was *her* husband.   Why did Xena
> have to take responsibility for them?  Xena went against Gabrielle's
> wishes, as a parent might a child.  Whatever Xena suffered as a result was
> because of her own need to do what *she* thought right, the same as
> Gabrielle.

Well, what you're saying in effect is, Xena shoulda let Gabby go and get 
herself killed?    (I do so totally agree with that idea, btw.....   ;)

Are you trying to blame Xena for protecting Gabby from the consequences of 
Gabby's own actions?    

>  <<Now I can't think of *any* occasion when Gabs could have handled the
>  situation, and Xena interefered unnecessarily, and Gabs had to rescue her.
>
>
> Hah, because Xena made sure Gabs didn't get that chance.  

Well, the only way I can interpret that is, that Xena was competent to get 
herself out of most situations without requiring rescue from Gabby.   

> It was always
> left vague as to whether Hope might've turned out differently under
> Gabrielle's tutelage.  

Not to my mind, but let that pass....

> Later, Xena saves her own child, even after that
> child massacred people.  One could argue that Livia didn't kill Xena
> because Xena was able to call on Eli's help.  She couldn't have done that
> if Gabrielle hadn't respected Eli's wish to become a martyr to peace.

I never called Gabby letting Eli get killed a screw-up.    For several 
reasons - first, because Gabby didn't place herself in that position 
unnecessarily or in defiance of Xena; second, because Ares woulda killed Eli 
anyway, regardless of anything Gaby tried to do.   It wasn't really Gabs' 
decision, as it turned out.

>   > If we're going to criticize Gabs for putting herself in harm's way,
>  > necessitating rescue by Xena, then I can't see why the same couldn't be
>  > said of Xena.  Gabrielle was willing to put her life on the line without
>  > Xena's intervention.  It was Xena's own protectiveness that made her
>  > decide Gabs had to live no matter what.  Now that I think about it, I'm
>  > not sure Xena saved Gabrielle that many more times than the other way
>  > around -- not including the times when Xena ordered, "Get behind me."
>
>  Oh dear, do I have to count them all?   It would be a long list.....>>
>
> I'm not sure that's true, but why not give it a go?  The TITANS, RETURN OF
> CALLISTO and DEBT are among the few times I recall Gabs requiring rescue
> purely out of arrogant dismissal of Xena's orders. 

Umm, no, you're shifting the goalposts.   

I thought you were talking here about the number of times one of them rescued 
the other, *not* just as a consequence of Gabs disobeying Xena's orders.    
And if you count the number of Gab-rescues, irrespective of cause, then the 
number is pretty substantial.    Do I have to go through every ep?  
(Specially in Seasons 1 & 2....)

> (As you recall, Xena tricked Gabrielle in GURKHAN.  

And Gabs got her revenge, didn't she?   :(

> And Xena did not tell Gabs she couldn't go out to give the Horde water.) 

Well, in that ep, I was equally unhappy with Xena doing the ruthless military 
commander bit *and* Gabs moralising about it.    (Who says I can't want it 
both ways too?   ;)

I'm just not over-thrilled with that ep (unlike, apparently, most).

I'd actually forgotten there was any sort of rescue of Gabby in that ep, 
though.

> In most other situations, it was because she
> was Xena's friend, was fighting beside Xena, happened to be in the wrong
> place, or had to act quickly to save someone's life or help a friend
> without time to consult Xena (e.g., BLIND FAITH, HOOVES, MARINER, the
> bacchae ep, TSUNAMI).   You can count those times, but I don't think it's
> fair to say that Gabrielle screwed-up, as her involvement was either
> accidental or the same kind of instinctive assistance that Xena would've
> given.

As I said, I thought you weren't talking just about 'screw-ups' there....
the ones you've mentioned just there, I don't count as screw-ups.  (Or if 
they were, they weren't bad enough to register with me  :)   Blind Faith and 
GJWHF are definitely Gab-rescues.   Lost Mariner, in fact, I don't even count 
as a Gab-rescue, because it wasn't obvious to either Gabs or Xena that they 
shouldn't board Cecrops ship, and Xena rescued everybody, herself included.   
The other two, I can't remember well enough to classify.   

>  > I'm pretty
>  > confident you'll see some distinction that makes Xena sensible and Gabs
>  > a screw-up in these situations.  I'm interested to hear what that is. 
>  > <g>
>  >
>  > -- Ife
>
>  OK.   When is it sensible?   When Xena (or whoever, including on occasion
>  Gabs) is the most capable person to do what is necessary.   When is it a
>  screw-up?   When it is quite unnecessary, when the person doing it has no
>  hope of carrying it out successfully, when they have to be rescued by
> someone
>  else at great risk to that someone else...
>
>
> If we define "success" or "necessary" from Xena's perspective, then she
> will usually be the "sensible" one, especially since the assumption is that
> she's the most capable of doing just about anything to achieve the
> impossible. Gabrielle successfully freed the Titans, 

I can't remember the details of the ep...   but I do remember it was in some 
ways a Bad Thing.   But I don't blame her for that one, since (IIRC) nobody 
warned her against it.

> got in the position to kill Callisto, 

... and then couldn't do it and got herself captured.   *After* she told Xena 
she was going home.    Classic screw-up if ever there was one.   Even from 
Gabby's point of view.   If she was going to *not* kill Callisto she shoulda 
stayed away.   

> protected baby Hope, 

... which is a very contentious issue now, isn't it?    It hardly had 
all-round beneficial effects...    ;)

> initially stopped Xena from killing Ming T'ien, 

At the cost of Xena getting imprisoned and, but for Xena's unexpected powers, 
executed.  In what possible sense of the word could that be called 
'successful'?   Again, since it was motivated (as we later found) by 
jealousy, and done with Ares' help, even from Gabs' point of view it must 
rate as a screw-up.   

I really think you chose some very bad examples to support your case.  ;)

> saved Xena from having her lifeline snipped, 

Sacrifice 2?    Yes, agreed.   Though it wouldn't have been necessary but for 
your example two up.    ;)

> and probably would've killed Gurkhan.  

Probably.   (*If* she got the right guy, haven't I seen a post where someone 
argued that Xena stopped her 'cos nobody was sure which one Gurkhan was?)

> From her standpoint, she achieved her goals and
> was prepared to give her life if necessary.  

But she didn't, she got saved by Xena at great personal risk every time.   

Take Gurkhan again.    Gabby must have known that killing him with Xena there 
would inevitably involve, not just her, but Xena.   Turn it round the other 
way - if Xena went and killed somebody and got herself and Gabby captured, 
would Xena consider that acceptable?    I think not.   She would have made 
sure Gabby was in the clear.    So if Gabby was going to go against Xena's 
wishes and sacrifice herself, she should at least have made sure Xena wasn't 
around when she did do.   IMO.

> The main difference is that
> she was an ordinary person, without benefit of the supernatural skills and
> supposed foresight that made Xena seem more inherently capable, no matter
> what the situation.  

Possibly because Xena *was* inherently more capable?    I think that's the 
way it was written and intended.

> The few times Xena's gifts weren't sufficient to save
> her (e.g., SINS, GREATER GOOD, DESTINY, SACRIFICE, CRUSADER, FIN), Gabs
> came to the rescue.

Yes, and I certainly give her credit for those.   You could add Chakram 
(joint credit with Amarice) and maybe some others.   

cr
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